--- In Behavioral-Finance@yahoogroups.com, "puschkar"
<a9202357@h...> wrote:
> well but in case you have some piece of art and collect entrance
fees
> or you lend it for money then the piece of art becomes an
investment?
> I think your logic is flawed IMHO...

You are free to think so, but could you explain why you think my
logic is flawed please?  Yes, I agree with your art example, but
that is a qualification of a statement not a refutation.

~Jan
And what about the tulip (or the dot.com) bubble?

>
> a stock is also generating only dividends which are usually very
> small...
>
> what about the tulip bubble?
>
> --- In Behavioral-Finance@yahoogroups.com, "leif_ericssen"
> <leif_ericssen@y...> wrote:
> > I'm afraid the basic subject is mistaken, actually.  Wine is a
> good
> > that is consumed (and Some wines some people collect and stock
> > hoping for appreciation in price). It is Not a capital asset for
> > investment.
> >
> > Calling wine or scotch or diamonds or art any other luxury or
> > collectable an investment is false. They are not an 'asset
class'
> > for investment because they are not used to produce returns.
> > Seeurities or real estate or other property that generates cash
> > flows are assets.
> >
> > Unfortunately, selling things like art or gemstones or scotch
and
> > wine as 'investments' is a Very good area for running scams in
and
> > many people have been decieved this way for years by dealers w/o
> > ethics and even full-on fraud operations.
> >
> > I don't see this kind of activity as being slowed much by law
> > enforcement (and if there is no fraud or durress, it is not even
> > ilegal), and the only real way to counter it is exposure and
public
> > awareness.
> >
> > ~Jan
> >
> > --- In Behavioral-Finance@yahoogroups.com, "servaasdekock"
> > <sdekock@i...> wrote:
> > > Dear Group,
> > > Has any one of you have knowledge and experience of Investing
in
> > wine
> > > as a new seperate asset class? IS THE RESULTS AND RETURNS
> > STASITICAL
> > > BEING TESTED AND VARIFIED ? Please see attached analysis done
in
> > > Australia.
> > > http://www.portfoliowines.com.au/investing.htm
> > >
> > > I would love your input if you know of scientific studies that
> can
> > > show or varify that.
> > >
> > > Regards,
> > > Servaas de Kock
> > > Cape Town
> > > South Africa

Dear Group,

There seems to be a cookie error for most computers
while accessing the link to my thesis. If there are
problems, you can also view the thesis at

http:\\members.lycos.co.uk\menbehavingbadly

(Alternative link: http:\\menbehavingbadly.741.com)

thanks (and apologies for the inconvenience)

regards,
rishi


________________________________________________________________________
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Yes, Jan, seems two different kind of fields borrow that
"socioeconomics" appellation.
1) One is about the impact of social (groups, classes,
segments, crowds) on economic / business phenomena. Seems
favored by marketers.
2) Another is exactly the reverse, about the impact of
the economy on society and, in its normative form, on
how to adapt the economy to what are (or what are
supposed to be) the needs of society.
If it is so, that word could create some confusion and
misunderstanding when somebody announces in a party "I'm a
socioeconomist", half the people marveling at it with
the other half being terrorized and ducking under the
table ;-).
Luckily, until now, it seems nobody launched "sociofinance"
as a buzzword.
Btw, neuroeconomics and neurofinance are alive and
kicking also, and it seems nobody up to now looks for the
emergency exit. But imagine if somebody decides to label
itself a psychoeconomist or a psychofinancier ;-)
In this world where complexity reign, the job market
becomes more and more specialized. Seems harder to find
the right matches, as there is now much more variety
than just square pegs and round holes ;-))
Peter

--- In Behavioral-Finance@yahoogroups.com, "leif_ericssen"
<leif_ericssen@y...> wrote:
> I didn't have know that there was a field of socioeconomics,
> Peter! :)
>
> Would it be concerned with how economic activity affects community
> or society relationships or how relationships and values in a
> society affect economic activity?
>
> Also, is it the same as economic sociology, which is the study of
> economic activity in sovciological terms?

Dick March
 
 
 

Yes, Jan, seems two different kind of fields borrow that
"socioeconomics" appellation.
1) One is about the impact of social (groups, classes,
segments, crowds) on economic / business phenomena. Seems
favored by marketers.
2) Another is exactly the reverse, about the impact of
the economy on society and, in its normative form, on
how to adapt the economy to what are (or what are
supposed to be) the needs of society.
If it is so, that word could create some confusion and
misunderstanding when somebody announces in a party "I'm a
socioeconomist", half the people marveling at it with
the other half being terrorized and ducking under the
table ;-).
Luckily, until now, it seems nobody launched "sociofinance"
as a buzzword.
Btw, neuroeconomics and neurofinance are alive and
kicking also, and it seems nobody up to now looks for the
emergency exit. But imagine if somebody decides to label
itself a psychoeconomist or a psychofinancier ;-)
In this world where complexity reign, the job market
becomes more and more specialized. Seems harder to find
the right matches, as there is now much more variety
than just square pegs and round holes ;-))
Peter

--- In Behavioral-Finance@yahoogroups.com, "leif_ericssen"
<leif_ericssen@y...> wrote:
> I didn't have know that there was a field of socioeconomics,
> Peter! :) 
>
> Would it be concerned with how economic activity affects community
> or society relationships or how relationships and values in a
> society affect economic activity?
>
> Also, is it the same as economic sociology, which is the study of
> economic activity in sovciological terms?



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Hi Peter and all,

Your discussion sparked in me a question: has anyone come up yet with the expression psychosocioeconomics? This is a word that better suits the expression psychosociology, an analogous expression in terms of social psychology, might be social psychoeconomics...

My guess is that some of the productions in behavioural finance, those that use psychosociology or social psychology, might suit well a field with a name of the above type.

Best Regards,

C. Pedro

At 17:23 20-01-2004 +0000, you wrote:

Yes, Jan, seems two different kind of fields borrow that
"socioeconomics" appellation.
1) One is about the impact of social (groups, classes,
segments, crowds) on economic / business phenomena. Seems
favored by marketers.
2) Another is exactly the reverse, about the impact of
the economy on society and, in its normative form, on
how to adapt the economy to what are (or what are
supposed to be) the needs of society.
If it is so, that word could create some confusion and
misunderstanding when somebody announces in a party "I'm a
socioeconomist", half the people marveling at it with
the other half being terrorized and ducking under the
table ;-).
Luckily, until now, it seems nobody launched "sociofinance"
as a buzzword.
Btw, neuroeconomics and neurofinance are alive and
kicking also, and it seems nobody up to now looks for the
emergency exit. But imagine if somebody decides to label
itself a psychoeconomist or a psychofinancier ;-)
In this world where complexity reign, the job market
becomes more and more specialized. Seems harder to find
the right matches, as there is now much more variety
than just square pegs and round holes ;-))
Peter

--- In Behavioral-Finance@yahoogroups.com, "leif_ericssen"
<leif_ericssen@y...> wrote:
> I didn't have know that there was a field of socioeconomics,
> Peter! :) 
>
> Would it be concerned with how economic activity affects community
> or society relationships or how relationships and values in a
> society affect economic activity?
>
> Also, is it the same as economic sociology, which is the study of
> economic activity in sovciological terms?



you may unsubscribe by sending an email to

Behavioral-Finance-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com



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Thanks for all those info and links, Dick.
This leads me to another train of thought.
There is from time to time a big divorce between capital
markets and economic prospects, and even between
economics and finance as fields of knowledge.
This always existed, but I wonder if the EMH was not an
additional factor in our times. Under the idea: "if the
capital market always take into account the economic info,
why bother to dig in the economic situation and prospects
and to understand economic phenomena?"
Another train of thought (partly in contradiction with
what I just said) is Soros "reflexivity" concept linking
finance and economics, meaning that we should normally
expect that the economic dog wags the financial tail, but
often the financial tail wags the economic dog.
Peter.

--- In Behavioral-Finance@yahoogroups.com, Dick March <rmarch@s...>
wrote:
> I agree with Peter that Socioeconomics can be very close to
behavioural
> finance. One area where Socioeconomics is used a lot, at least in
the
> United States, is in connection with project evaluation,
particularly In
> the "NEPA (National Environmental Policy Act) process."
> http://ceq.eh.doe.gov/nepa/regs/nepa/nepaeqia.htm
> See in particular

Dear all,

The field of all the neurosciences and the use of MRI is surely
promising but I've got the feeling that it is overstimated as well.
Just have a look at the results at the moment. They are not that
special.
Of course I know that we need to find out more about the hardware of
our reasoning mechanisms but we need a more differentiated kind of
knowledge than MRI can offer at the moment.
Everybody is impressed by the fancy pictures you get but still we
only have single pictures! What we need is the whole movie and for
that will have to mix up different methods.
When we know which parts of the brain are activated during a reading
task for example we still don't know the exact path from a visual
signal to the mental represantation.
Let's look at the things to come from that research but let us not
think they are the last key to open the secret box. There's still a
long way to go!

with "I'm proud to be part of an interdisciplinary research field"
greetings

H.

--- In Behavioral-Finance@yahoogroups.com, Dogan Isik
<doganfisik@y...> wrote:
> Dear all,
> I think psychology and socio- are very antique signs to use. They
dont reflect the emerging connection between economics -and in
general social sciences- and life sciences through cognitive
science. The exact branch of interest is cognitive neuropsychiatry.
People use Magnetic Resonance Imaging to detect the effects of
advertising, for example. We are to quit the 19th century social
science. We are to become scientists and engineers for real.
Manipulation of linguistic and mathematical artefacts was the trade
and it wont be anymore. "Economic agents" will be replaced by real
dynamic neurological population data.
>
> Regards,
> Dogan F. Isik
>
> Carlos Gonçalves <cgon1@i...> wrote:
> Hi Peter and all,
>
> Your discussion sparked in me a question: has anyone come up yet
with the expression psychosocioeconomics? This is a word that better
suits the expression psychosociology, an analogous expression in
terms of social psychology, might be social psychoeconomics...
>
> My guess is that some of the productions in behavioural finance,
those that use psychosociology or social psychology, might suit well
a field with a name of the above type.
>
> Best Regards,
>
> C. Pedro
>
> At 17:23 20-01-2004 +0000, you wrote:
> Yes, Jan, seems two different kind of fields borrow that
> "socioeconomics" appellation.
> 1) One is about the impact of social (groups, classes,
> segments, crowds) on economic / business phenomena. Seems
> favored by marketers.
> 2) Another is exactly the reverse, about the impact of
> the economy on society and, in its normative form, on
> how to adapt the economy to what are (or what are
> supposed to be) the needs of society.
> If it is so, that word could create some confusion and
> misunderstanding when somebody announces in a party "I'm a
> socioeconomist", half the people marveling at it with
> the other half being terrorized and ducking under the
> table ;-).
> Luckily, until now, it seems nobody launched "sociofinance"
> as a buzzword.
> Btw, neuroeconomics and neurofinance are alive and
> kicking also, and it seems nobody up to now looks for the
> emergency exit. But imagine if somebody decides to label
> itself a psychoeconomist or a psychofinancier ;-)
> In this world where complexity reign, the job market
> becomes more and more specialized. Seems harder to find
> the right matches, as there is now much more variety
> than just square pegs and round holes ;-))
> Peter
>
> --- In Behavioral-Finance@yahoogroups.com, "leif_ericssen"
> <leif_ericssen@y...> wrote:
> > I didn't have know that there was a field of socioeconomics,
> > Peter! :)
> >
> > Would it be concerned with how economic activity affects
community
> > or society relationships or how relationships and values in a
> > society affect economic activity?
> >
> > Also, is it the same as economic sociology, which is the study
of
> > economic activity in sovciological terms?
>
>
>
> you may unsubscribe by sending an email to
>
> Behavioral-Finance-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
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>
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Dear all,
I think psychology and socio- are very antique signs to use. They dont reflect the emerging connection between economics -and in general social sciences- and life sciences through cognitive science. The exact branch of interest is cognitive neuropsychiatry. People use Magnetic Resonance Imaging to detect the effects of advertising, for example. We are to quit the 19th century social science. We are to become scientists and engineers for real. Manipulation of linguistic and mathematical artefacts was the trade and it wont be anymore. "Economic agents" will be replaced by real dynamic neurological population data. 
 
Regards,
Dogan F. Isik

Carlos Gonçalves <cgon1@...> wrote:

Hi Peter and all,

Your discussion sparked in me a question: has anyone come up yet with the expression psychosocioeconomics? This is a word that better suits the expression psychosociology, an analogous expression in terms of social psychology, might be social psychoeconomics...

My guess is that some of the productions in behavioural finance, those that use psychosociology or social psychology, might suit well a field with a name of the above type.

Best Regards,

C. Pedro

At 17:23 20-01-2004 +0000, you wrote:

Yes, Jan, seems two different kind of fields borrow that

"socioeconomics" appellation.

1) One is about the impact of social (groups, classes,

segments, crowds) on economic / business phenomena. Seems

favored by marketers.

2) Another is exactly the reverse, about the impact of

the economy on society and, in its normative form, on

how to adapt the economy to what are (or what are

supposed to be) the needs of society.

If it is so, that word could create some confusion and

misunderstanding when somebody announces in a party "I'm a

socioeconomist", half the people marveling at it with

the other half being terrorized and ducking under the

table ;-).

Luckily, until now, it seems nobody launched "sociofinance"

as a buzzword.

Btw, neuroeconomics and neurofinance are alive and

kicking also, and it seems nobody up to now looks for the

emergency exit. But imagine if somebody decides to label

itself a psychoeconomist or a psychofinancier ;-)

In this world where complexity reign, the job market

becomes more and more specialized. Seems harder to find

the right matches, as there is now much more variety

than just square pegs and round holes ;-))

Peter

--- In Behavioral-Finance@yahoogroups.com, "leif_ericssen"

<leif_ericssen@y...> wrote:

> I didn't have know that there was a field of socioeconomics,

> Peter! :) 

>

> Would it be concerned with how economic activity affects community

> or society relationships or how relationships and values in a

> society affect economic activity?

>

> Also, is it the same as economic sociology, which is the study of

> economic activity in sovciological terms?

you may unsubscribe by sending an email to

Behavioral-Finance-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

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[DEFAULT]
BASEURL=http://pwp.netcabo.pt/0154943702/

[DOC#4#6]
BASEURL=http://pwp.netcabo.pt/0154943702/intro.htm
ORIGURL=joão_branquinho.htm

[DOC#4#6.A]
ORIGURL=joão_branquinho.htm

[DOC#4#6.W]
ORIGURL=jo+AOM-o+AF8-branquinho.htm

[InternetShortcut]
URL=http://pwp.netcabo.pt/0154943702/intro.htm
Modified=6056B98830D5C301C0

I wonder if in the end, by the time we will have the secret box opened, this
research will help us to use our brain capacity in a different and, perhaps,
more intensive way

Pedro



-----Mensagem original-----
De: hieronymus03 [mailto:hieronymus03@...]
Enviada: quarta-feira, 21 de Janeiro de 2004 12:09
Para: Behavioral-Finance@yahoogroups.com
Assunto: [Behavioral-Finance] Re: Socioeconomics: how to define it?

Dear all,

The field of all the neurosciences and the use of MRI is surely
promising but I've got the feeling that it is overstimated as well.
Just have a look at the results at the moment. They are not that
special.
Of course I know that we need to find out more about the hardware of
our reasoning mechanisms but we need a more differentiated kind of
knowledge than MRI can offer at the moment.
Everybody is impressed by the fancy pictures you get but still we
only have single pictures! What we need is the whole movie and for
that will have to mix up different methods.
When we know which parts of the brain are activated during a reading
task for example we still don't know the exact path from a visual
signal to the mental represantation.
Let's look at the things to come from that research but let us not
think they are the last key to open the secret box. There's still a
long way to go!

with "I'm proud to be part of an interdisciplinary research field"
greetings

H.

--- In Behavioral-Finance@yahoogroups.com, Dogan Isik
<doganfisik@y...> wrote:
> Dear all,
> I think psychology and socio- are very antique signs to use. They
dont reflect the emerging connection between economics -and in
general social sciences- and life sciences through cognitive
science. The exact branch of interest is cognitive neuropsychiatry.
People use Magnetic Resonance Imaging to detect the effects of
advertising, for example. We are to quit the 19th century social
science. We are to become scientists and engineers for real.
Manipulation of linguistic and mathematical artefacts was the trade
and it wont be anymore. "Economic agents" will be replaced by real
dynamic neurological population data.
>
> Regards,
> Dogan F. Isik
>
> Carlos Gonçalves <cgon1@i...> wrote:
> Hi Peter and all,
>
> Your discussion sparked in me a question: has anyone come up yet
with the expression psychosocioeconomics? This is a word that better
suits the expression psychosociology, an analogous expression in
terms of social psychology, might be social psychoeconomics...
>
> My guess is that some of the productions in behavioural finance,
those that use psychosociology or social psychology, might suit well
a field with a name of the above type.
>
> Best Regards,
>
> C. Pedro
>
> At 17:23 20-01-2004 +0000, you wrote:
> Yes, Jan, seems two different kind of fields borrow that
> "socioeconomics" appellation.
> 1) One is about the impact of social (groups, classes,
> segments, crowds) on economic / business phenomena. Seems
> favored by marketers.
> 2) Another is exactly the reverse, about the impact of
> the economy on society and, in its normative form, on
> how to adapt the economy to what are (or what are
> supposed to be) the needs of society.
> If it is so, that word could create some confusion and
> misunderstanding when somebody announces in a party "I'm a
> socioeconomist", half the people marveling at it with
> the other half being terrorized and ducking under the
> table ;-).
> Luckily, until now, it seems nobody launched "sociofinance"
> as a buzzword.
> Btw, neuroeconomics and neurofinance are alive and
> kicking also, and it seems nobody up to now looks for the
> emergency exit. But imagine if somebody decides to label
> itself a psychoeconomist or a psychofinancier ;-)
> In this world where complexity reign, the job market
> becomes more and more specialized. Seems harder to find
> the right matches, as there is now much more variety
> than just square pegs and round holes ;-))
> Peter
>
> --- In Behavioral-Finance@yahoogroups.com, "leif_ericssen"
> <leif_ericssen@y...> wrote:
> > I didn't have know that there was a field of socioeconomics,
> > Peter! :)
> >
> > Would it be concerned with how economic activity affects
community
> > or society relationships or how relationships and values in a
> > society affect economic activity?
> >
> > Also, is it the same as economic sociology, which is the study
of
> > economic activity in sovciological terms?
>
>
>
> you may unsubscribe by sending an email to
>
> Behavioral-Finance-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> ADVERTISEMENT
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
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>    To visit your group on the web, go to:
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> ---------------------------------
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today! Download Messenger Now


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*grins* Well, I agree and disagree (I do that often), Dogan.  1st,
I'm not an expert in English, but isn't 'cognitive neuropsychiatry'
redundant? :)

Re MRI/advertising, sure, and I've read there was brainwave
monitoring and spectral analysis of the output from at least the
1970s, and before that recording eye motion in response to stimuli.
I'm not familiar with the literature closely, btw.

Obviously, I don't like fuzzy thinking staying in scholarship and I
don't like politics pretending to be scientific research.  But I
don't see '19thC social science' still dominating, and in fact the
late 20thC has had real progress post Pavlov and Skinner.  People
like Chomsky and Simon started a Long time before I was born.  I
think 'scientists and engineers for real' has happened - and there
were some real scientists and engineers in the 19/20thC who had
social and economic research interests, you know.

Basically, I really don't wish to discourage you, but part of what
you are advocating as 'emerging' has an already rich history,
actually. The crossing of economic and psychological research is
relatively new, though.

~Jan


--- In Behavioral-Finance@yahoogroups.com, Dogan Isik
<doganfisik@y...> wrote:
> Dear all,
> I think psychology and socio- are very antique signs to use. They
dont reflect the emerging connection between economics -and in
general social sciences- and life sciences through cognitive
science. The exact branch of interest is cognitive neuropsychiatry.
People use Magnetic Resonance Imaging to detect the effects of
advertising, for example. We are to quit the 19th century social
science. We are to become scientists and engineers for real.
Manipulation of linguistic and mathematical artefacts was the trade
and it wont be anymore. "Economic agents" will be replaced by real
dynamic neurological population data.
>
> Regards,
> Dogan F. Isik
>
> Carlos Gonçalves <cgon1@i...> wrote:
> Hi Peter and all,
>
> Your discussion sparked in me a question: has anyone come up yet
with the expression psychosocioeconomics? This is a word that better
suits the expression psychosociology, an analogous expression in
terms of social psychology, might be social psychoeconomics...
>
> My guess is that some of the productions in behavioural finance,
those that use psychosociology or social psychology, might suit well
a field with a name of the above type.
>
> Best Regards,
>
> C. Pedro
>
> At 17:23 20-01-2004 +0000, you wrote:
> Yes, Jan, seems two different kind of fields borrow that
> "socioeconomics" appellation.
> 1) One is about the impact of social (groups, classes,
> segments, crowds) on economic / business phenomena. Seems
> favored by marketers.
> 2) Another is exactly the reverse, about the impact of
> the economy on society and, in its normative form, on
> how to adapt the economy to what are (or what are
> supposed to be) the needs of society.
> If it is so, that word could create some confusion and
> misunderstanding when somebody announces in a party "I'm a
> socioeconomist", half the people marveling at it with
> the other half being terrorized and ducking under the
> table ;-).
> Luckily, until now, it seems nobody launched "sociofinance"
> as a buzzword.
> Btw, neuroeconomics and neurofinance are alive and
> kicking also, and it seems nobody up to now looks for the
> emergency exit. But imagine if somebody decides to label
> itself a psychoeconomist or a psychofinancier ;-)
> In this world where complexity reign, the job market
> becomes more and more specialized. Seems harder to find
> the right matches, as there is now much more variety
> than just square pegs and round holes ;-))
> Peter
>
> --- In Behavioral-Finance@yahoogroups.com, "leif_ericssen"
> <leif_ericssen@y...> wrote:
> > I didn't have know that there was a field of socioeconomics,
> > Peter! :)
> >
> > Would it be concerned with how economic activity affects
community
> > or society relationships or how relationships and values in a
> > society affect economic activity?
> >
> > Also, is it the same as economic sociology, which is the study
of
> > economic activity in sovciological terms?
>
>
>
> you may unsubscribe by sending an email to
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Perhaps the true description of a behavioural financier* is
cognitive dissidant?  :)

I wonder if the increasing narrowed sub-disciplines in economics and
other liberal arts really indicate trouble with the taxonomy.
Classification and specialisation are good for simplicity and
efficiency and we do it because it Does work so well for us.  I
think you can see where it goes wrong when it stops being convienent
to do any more.  Just my opinion, but I think that point has been
passed maybe?

But with the politics of scholary territory and tribal mores and the
realities of dissertation acceptance and tenure track (Im thinking
of the US), I think the pattern of research fashions and academic
industries is set and will continue, and real interdisciplinary
research with cross-fertilisation is rare.

~Jan
*see Peter's bio!


--- In Behavioral-Finance@yahoogroups.com, "pgreenfinch"
<pgreenfinch@w...> wrote:
> Yes, Jan, seems two different kind of fields borrow that
> "socioeconomics" appellation.
> 1) One is about the impact of social (groups, classes,
> segments, crowds) on economic / business phenomena. Seems
> favored by marketers.
> 2) Another is exactly the reverse, about the impact of
> the economy on society and, in its normative form, on
> how to adapt the economy to what are (or what are
> supposed to be) the needs of society.
> If it is so, that word could create some confusion and
> misunderstanding when somebody announces in a party "I'm a
> socioeconomist", half the people marveling at it with
> the other half being terrorized and ducking under the
> table ;-).
> Luckily, until now, it seems nobody launched "sociofinance"
> as a buzzword.
> Btw, neuroeconomics and neurofinance are alive and
> kicking also, and it seems nobody up to now looks for the
> emergency exit. But imagine if somebody decides to label
> itself a psychoeconomist or a psychofinancier ;-)
> In this world where complexity reign, the job market
> becomes more and more specialized. Seems harder to find
> the right matches, as there is now much more variety
> than just square pegs and round holes ;-))
> Peter
>
> --- In Behavioral-Finance@yahoogroups.com, "leif_ericssen"
> <leif_ericssen@y...> wrote:
> > I didn't have know that there was a field of socioeconomics,
> > Peter! :)
> >
> > Would it be concerned with how economic activity affects
community
> > or society relationships or how relationships and values in a
> > society affect economic activity?
> >
> > Also, is it the same as economic sociology, which is the study
of
> > economic activity in sovciological terms?

I suppose that social psychology, where people have researched of
selling and persuasion, can have a sub class or sub-sub class for
economic activity and finance.  Clearly the human social relations
and social learning are relevant to business and investment. I'm
pretty sure that investor psychology or financial psychology should
be a part of social psychology.  Study of criminology and politics
are research interests in social psych.

~Jan

At 07:43 PM 1/20/2004 +0000, you wrote:
>>>>
Hi Peter and all,

Your discussion sparked in me a question: has anyone come up yet
with the expression psychosocioeconomics? This is a word that better
suits the expression psychosociology, an analogous expression in
terms of social psychology, might be social psychoeconomics...

My guess is that some of the productions in behavioural finance,
those that use psychosociology or social psychology, might suit well
a field with a name of the above type.

Best Regards,

C. Pedro

The best thing I can say about the EMH is that it is elegant and
even reasonable if you relax the extreme argument. EMH/perfect
competition doesn't describe the real world we live in, and I do
understand limit-case argument but I don't have much use for the
idea of reducto ad absurdium as a path to truth.  It more likely is
a Jesuit tool.

~Jan


--- In Behavioral-Finance@yahoogroups.com, "pgreenfinch"
<pgreenfinch@w...> wrote:
> Thanks for all those info and links, Dick.
> This leads me to another train of thought.
> There is from time to time a big divorce between capital
> markets and economic prospects, and even between
> economics and finance as fields of knowledge.
> This always existed, but I wonder if the EMH was not an
> additional factor in our times. Under the idea: "if the
> capital market always take into account the economic info,
> why bother to dig in the economic situation and prospects
> and to understand economic phenomena?"
> Another train of thought (partly in contradiction with
> what I just said) is Soros "reflexivity" concept linking
> finance and economics, meaning that we should normally
> expect that the economic dog wags the financial tail, but
> often the financial tail wags the economic dog.
> Peter.
>
> --- In Behavioral-Finance@yahoogroups.com, Dick March
<rmarch@s...>
> wrote:
> > I agree with Peter that Socioeconomics can be very close to
> behavioural
> > finance. One area where Socioeconomics is used a lot, at least
in
> the
> > United States, is in connection with project evaluation,
> particularly In
> > the "NEPA (National Environmental Policy Act) process."
> > http://ceq.eh.doe.gov/nepa/regs/nepa/nepaeqia.htm
> > See in particular

Maybe the best thing for us since the Net Age, Enlightenment and
Reniassance science, or even literacy? :)

Jan,
(who is normally quite sceptical of Tomorrowland predictions but
might make an exception)

--- In Behavioral-Finance@yahoogroups.com, "Pedro Rino Vieira"
<rinovieira@s...> wrote:
>
> I wonder if in the end, by the time we will have the secret box
opened, this
> research will help us to use our brain capacity in a different
and, perhaps,
> more intensive way
>
> Pedro
>
>
>
> -----Mensagem original-----
> De: hieronymus03 [mailto:hieronymus03@y...]
> Enviada: quarta-feira, 21 de Janeiro de 2004 12:09
> Para: Behavioral-Finance@yahoogroups.com
> Assunto: [Behavioral-Finance] Re: Socioeconomics: how to define it?
>
> Dear all,
>
> The field of all the neurosciences and the use of MRI is surely
> promising but I've got the feeling that it is overstimated as well.
> Just have a look at the results at the moment. They are not that
> special.
> Of course I know that we need to find out more about the hardware
of
> our reasoning mechanisms but we need a more differentiated kind of
> knowledge than MRI can offer at the moment.
> Everybody is impressed by the fancy pictures you get but still we
> only have single pictures! What we need is the whole movie and for
> that will have to mix up different methods.
> When we know which parts of the brain are activated during a
reading
> task for example we still don't know the exact path from a visual
> signal to the mental represantation.
> Let's look at the things to come from that research but let us not
> think they are the last key to open the secret box. There's still
a
> long way to go!
>
> with "I'm proud to be part of an interdisciplinary research field"
> greetings
>
> H.
>
> --- In Behavioral-Finance@yahoogroups.com, Dogan Isik
> <doganfisik@y...> wrote:
> > Dear all,
> > I think psychology and socio- are very antique signs to use.
They
> dont reflect the emerging connection between economics -and in
> general social sciences- and life sciences through cognitive
> science. The exact branch of interest is cognitive
neuropsychiatry.
> People use Magnetic Resonance Imaging to detect the effects of
> advertising, for example. We are to quit the 19th century social
> science. We are to become scientists and engineers for real.
> Manipulation of linguistic and mathematical artefacts was the
trade
> and it wont be anymore. "Economic agents" will be replaced by real
> dynamic neurological population data.
> >
> > Regards,
> > Dogan F. Isik
> >
> > Carlos Gonçalves <cgon1@i...> wrote:
> > Hi Peter and all,
> >
> > Your discussion sparked in me a question: has anyone come up yet
> with the expression psychosocioeconomics? This is a word that
better
> suits the expression psychosociology, an analogous expression in
> terms of social psychology, might be social psychoeconomics...
> >
> > My guess is that some of the productions in behavioural finance,
> those that use psychosociology or social psychology, might suit
well
> a field with a name of the above type.
> >
> > Best Regards,
> >
> > C. Pedro
> >
> > At 17:23 20-01-2004 +0000, you wrote:
> > Yes, Jan, seems two different kind of fields borrow that
> > "socioeconomics" appellation.
> > 1) One is about the impact of social (groups, classes,
> > segments, crowds) on economic / business phenomena. Seems
> > favored by marketers.
> > 2) Another is exactly the reverse, about the impact of
> > the economy on society and, in its normative form, on
> > how to adapt the economy to what are (or what are
> > supposed to be) the needs of society.
> > If it is so, that word could create some confusion and
> > misunderstanding when somebody announces in a party "I'm a
> > socioeconomist", half the people marveling at it with
> > the other half being terrorized and ducking under the
> > table ;-).
> > Luckily, until now, it seems nobody launched "sociofinance"
> > as a buzzword.
> > Btw, neuroeconomics and neurofinance are alive and
> > kicking also, and it seems nobody up to now looks for the
> > emergency exit. But imagine if somebody decides to label
> > itself a psychoeconomist or a psychofinancier ;-)
> > In this world where complexity reign, the job market
> > becomes more and more specialized. Seems harder to find
> > the right matches, as there is now much more variety
> > than just square pegs and round holes ;-))
> > Peter
> >
> > --- In Behavioral-Finance@yahoogroups.com, "leif_ericssen"
> > <leif_ericssen@y...> wrote:
> > > I didn't have know that there was a field of socioeconomics,
> > > Peter! :)
> > >
> > > Would it be concerned with how economic activity affects
> community
> > > or society relationships or how relationships and values in a
> > > society affect economic activity?
> > >
> > > Also, is it the same as economic sociology, which is the study
> of
> > > economic activity in sovciological terms?
> >
> >
> >
> > you may unsubscribe by sending an email to
> >
> > Behavioral-Finance-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> >
> >
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
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I agree, H. From what I've read about research in functional neuro-
imaging, it seems to have a lot of progress and potential (and this
could also just be one of those phases where the advances are at a
fast pace), but it is still research. Looking at pictures (voxels)
of brain scans that show patterns of brain activation is impressive
but I think it should be with the understanding that there is the
question of what you can infer from group average effects and
individual results to know what to look for, where in the brain, and
in what situations to make conclusions.

And I don't want to ignore the social aspects of behaviour.
Individuals are different and have different experiences and
perceptions and we live in a social environment with a culture and
it is a fatal mistake to ignore it because it doesn't measure well.
To write that off because it's 'soft' misses the point, I think.

~Jan

--- In Behavioral-Finance@yahoogroups.com, "hieronymus03"
<hieronymus03@y...> wrote:
> Dear all,
>
> The field of all the neurosciences and the use of MRI is surely
> promising but I've got the feeling that it is overstimated as well.
> Just have a look at the results at the moment. They are not that
> special.
> Of course I know that we need to find out more about the hardware
of
> our reasoning mechanisms but we need a more differentiated kind of
> knowledge than MRI can offer at the moment.
> Everybody is impressed by the fancy pictures you get but still we
> only have single pictures! What we need is the whole movie and for
> that will have to mix up different methods.
> When we know which parts of the brain are activated during a
reading
> task for example we still don't know the exact path from a visual
> signal to the mental represantation.
> Let's look at the things to come from that research but let us not
> think they are the last key to open the secret box. There's still
a
> long way to go!
>
> with "I'm proud to be part of an interdisciplinary research field"
> greetings
>
> H.
>
> --- In Behavioral-Finance@yahoogroups.com, Dogan Isik
> <doganfisik@y...> wrote:
> > Dear all,
> > I think psychology and socio- are very antique signs to use.
They
> dont reflect the emerging connection between economics -and in
> general social sciences- and life sciences through cognitive
> science. The exact branch of interest is cognitive
neuropsychiatry.
> People use Magnetic Resonance Imaging to detect the effects of
> advertising, for example. We are to quit the 19th century social
> science. We are to become scientists and engineers for real.
> Manipulation of linguistic and mathematical artefacts was the
trade
> and it wont be anymore. "Economic agents" will be replaced by real
> dynamic neurological population data.
> >
> > Regards,
> > Dogan F. Isik
> >
> > Carlos Gonçalves <cgon1@i...> wrote:
> > Hi Peter and all,
> >
> > Your discussion sparked in me a question: has anyone come up yet
> with the expression psychosocioeconomics? This is a word that
better
> suits the expression psychosociology, an analogous expression in
> terms of social psychology, might be social psychoeconomics...
> >
> > My guess is that some of the productions in behavioural finance,
> those that use psychosociology or social psychology, might suit
well
> a field with a name of the above type.
> >
> > Best Regards,
> >
> > C. Pedro
> >
> > At 17:23 20-01-2004 +0000, you wrote:
> > Yes, Jan, seems two different kind of fields borrow that
> > "socioeconomics" appellation.
> > 1) One is about the impact of social (groups, classes,
> > segments, crowds) on economic / business phenomena. Seems
> > favored by marketers.
> > 2) Another is exactly the reverse, about the impact of
> > the economy on society and, in its normative form, on
> > how to adapt the economy to what are (or what are
> > supposed to be) the needs of society.
> > If it is so, that word could create some confusion and
> > misunderstanding when somebody announces in a party "I'm a
> > socioeconomist", half the people marveling at it with
> > the other half being terrorized and ducking under the
> > table ;-).
> > Luckily, until now, it seems nobody launched "sociofinance"
> > as a buzzword.
> > Btw, neuroeconomics and neurofinance are alive and
> > kicking also, and it seems nobody up to now looks for the
> > emergency exit. But imagine if somebody decides to label
> > itself a psychoeconomist or a psychofinancier ;-)
> > In this world where complexity reign, the job market
> > becomes more and more specialized. Seems harder to find
> > the right matches, as there is now much more variety
> > than just square pegs and round holes ;-))
> > Peter
> >
> > --- In Behavioral-Finance@yahoogroups.com, "leif_ericssen"
> > <leif_ericssen@y...> wrote:
> > > I didn't have know that there was a field of socioeconomics,
> > > Peter! :)
> > >
> > > Would it be concerned with how economic activity affects
> community
> > > or society relationships or how relationships and values in a
> > > society affect economic activity?
> > >
> > > Also, is it the same as economic sociology, which is the study
> of
> > > economic activity in sovciological terms?
> >
> >
> >
> > you may unsubscribe by sending an email to
> >
> > Behavioral-Finance-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> >
> >
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> > ADVERTISEMENT
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >    To visit your group on the web, go to:
> >    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Behavioral-Finance/
> >
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> Service.
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> today! Download Messenger Now

Hi Dogan,

Since I've worked with cognitive science and researched on the process that it undergone and that lead to nowadays cognitive science and the process that it is still undergoing, it is quite fair to say that you are reducing it to one of the sciences that contributes to this vaster field of research, and what is worst, you are forgetting that neurophysiology is in a dialogue with psychology (and this dialogue is especially important for cognitive science) and forgetting that psychology is evolving, and has evolved since the 19th century (the same being true of course for social science in general). Suggest you read the attachment I am sending, and that you check in bookstores for books in the area of social sciences written by authors in the 20th and 21st centuries.

Best Regards,

C. Pedro

At 03:22 21-01-2004 +0000, you wrote:

Dear all,
I think psychology and socio- are very antique signs to use. They dont reflect the emerging connection between economics -and in general social sciences- and life sciences through cognitive science. The exact branch of interest is cognitive neuropsychiatry. People use Magnetic Resonance Imaging to detect the effects of advertising, for example. We are to quit the 19th century social science. We are to become scientists and engineers for real. Manipulation of linguistic and mathematical artefacts was the trade and it wont be anymore. "Economic agents" will be replaced by real dynamic neurological population data. 
 
Regards,
Dogan F. Isik

Carlos Gonçalves <cgon1@...> wrote:

Hi Peter and all,

Your discussion sparked in me a question: has anyone come up yet with the expression psychosocioeconomics? This is a word that better suits the expression psychosociology, an analogous expression in terms of social psychology, might be social psychoeconomics...

My guess is that some of the productions in behavioural finance, those that use psychosociology or social psychology, might suit well a field with a name of the above type.

Best Regards,

C. Pedro

At 17:23 20-01-2004 +0000, you wrote:

Yes, Jan, seems two different kind of fields borrow that

"socioeconomics" appellation.

1) One is about the impact of social (groups, classes,

segments, crowds) on economic / business phenomena. Seems

favored by marketers.

2) Another is exactly the reverse, about the impact of

the economy on society and, in its normative form, on

how to adapt the economy to what are (or what are

supposed to be) the needs of society.

If it is so, that word could create some confusion and

misunderstanding when somebody announces in a party "I'm a

socioeconomist", half the people marveling at it with

the other half being terrorized and ducking under the

table ;-).

Luckily, until now, it seems nobody launched "sociofinance"

as a buzzword.

Btw, neuroeconomics and neurofinance are alive and

kicking also, and it seems nobody up to now looks for the

emergency exit. But imagine if somebody decides to label

itself a psychoeconomist or a psychofinancier ;-)

In this world where complexity reign, the job market

becomes more and more specialized. Seems harder to find

the right matches, as there is now much more variety

than just square pegs and round holes ;-))

Peter

--- In Behavioral-Finance@yahoogroups.com, "leif_ericssen"

<leif_ericssen@y...> wrote:

> I didn't have know that there was a field of socioeconomics,

> Peter! :) 

>

> Would it be concerned with how economic activity affects community

> or society relationships or how relationships and values in a

> society affect economic activity?

>

> Also, is it the same as economic sociology, which is the study of

> economic activity in sovciological terms?

you may unsubscribe by sending an email to

Behavioral-Finance-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

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Message deleted, and good bye, Anibal
Peter

--- In Behavioral-Finance@yahoogroups.com, "Anibal Archenti"
<anibalarchenti@y...> wrote:
>

Dear all,

I would appreciate if any of you could refer me to the academic
papers or business newspaper articles that are exploring the issue
of the impact of the degree of noise trading in individual stocks on
the crashproness of these stocks. Is there any evidence that noise
trading depending on circumstances can be both Destabilizing and
Stabilizing (with respect to the likelihoof of causing a crash,
large price decline without external news occuring)? Do you think
that the relationship between the two is obvious or ambiguous and
why?

I would appreciate your opinion on professional opinion on which
proxies could be potentially used for noise trading (like retail
partcipation, correlation w/closed end fund discount, portfolios of
stocks with low analyst coverage, etc) as well as measures of
crashproness (besides higher orders of the returns distributions?)

I am very open to any comments and suggestions on this topic because
i think it is quite important for optimal portolio decisions of
investors as well as regulatory issues aiming to reduce the
likelihood of crashes.

Regards
Denis

Thank you Bob for your input.

I have read your details which I find fascinating.

I am awaiting Dr. Hülsmann's reaction.

 

I have these questions ;

1. what do you call "macro-economy" from your perspective
2. refering to macro-economists making market predictions (in France we name them "Conjoncturistes" ), how do they derive their reasoning from if not from macro-economic theories ?

Fred Rabeman

----- Original Message -----

From: Bob Bronson

To: Behavioral-Finance@yahoogroups.com

Cc: jgh@...

Sent: Thursday, January 22, 2004 1:14 AM

Subject: RE: [Behavioral-Finance] Facts and Counterfactuals in Economic Law

Thanx for the reference, but Jörg Guido Hülsmann's

reasoning leaves a lot to be desired.  It appears that

he tries too hard to bring too much certitude to the

black and white notions that he expresses, rather

than delving into the all-important grey areas. 

 

Thus, he makes many statements with which it's

easy to challenge, if not completely disagree.  For

example, on page 65, he says, "The macro-economist

implicitly assumes that individual members of the

society he models do not make choices, and that

human behavior can be fully explained in terms of

circumstances of action."

 

Perhaps he knows some, or even many, macro-

economists that would agree with what he claims

they assume, or intrinsically believe, but assuredly

we are merely one of many engaged in that field

that do not assume or believe what he says at all. 

 

In fact, I don't know of any macro-economist that 

would agree with his claims, so I will ask him, by

way of copying him in on my comments, if he is

willing to support his claim with the names of any

macro-economist who believes that about himself

or herself, or other hard evidence that support his

over-reaching claim.

 

I won't comment any further on his paper until he

responds -- other than to note that false premises

can only lead to accidentally accurate conclusions.

 

Bob Bronson

Bronson Capital Markets Research

 

P.S.  By the way, we give great weight to Austrian

Economics in our various capital markets forecasting

models, and we regularly find much value in most

of the work from the Ludwig von Mises Institute.

 

 

Jörg Guido Hülsmann

Professor Hülsmann is Senior Fellow of the Ludwig von Mises Institute. He earned his PhD in economics at the Technical University of Berlin and a Habilitation degree at the University of Dauphine of Paris. He is the author of Kritik der Dominanztheorie (Critique of F. Perroux's Theory of Dominant Economies) and of Logik der Währungskonkurrenz (The Logic of Currency Competition), and has translated several renowned economic books into German. Dr. Hülsmann has written many articles in English, French, and German and is a contributor to such journals as The Quarterly Journal of Austrian Economics, Review of Austrian Economics, and Journal of Libertarian Studies. He is currently working on a full biography of the life and work of Ludwig von Mises. You can reach him at jgh@....

 

 

 

 

---

From: Maestrade [mailto:maestrader@...]
Sent: Wednesday, January 21, 2004 8:18 PM
To: Behavioral-Finance@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Behavioral-Finance] Facts and Counterfactuals in Economic Law

.....The reason is the existence of choice. A man who finds himself twice
in exactly the same situation might choose to do X the first time and
Y the second time. There is no law that can fully explain his choice in
terms of the mere circumstances of his action. (Notice that this problem
is more fundamental than the difficulty of setting up laboratory experiments
to study human behaviour. Even if we could create adequate
laboratory conditions to control for the innumerable circumstances of
action, we could not control choice. And, as a consequence, the experiment
could not help us to determine the impact of any condition on
human behaviour.)..........Hülsmann – Facts and Counterfactuals in Economic Law

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Very good report on risks, biases about risk, and the
risk issues in the present state of the world economy
and financial markets, in this week's "The Economist"
Peter

Dear all,

I would appreciate if any of you could refer me to the academic
papers or business newspaper articles that are exploring the issue
of the impact of the degree of noise trading in individual stocks on
the crashproness of these stocks. Is there any evidence that noise
trading depending on circumstances can be both Destabilizing and
Stabilizing (with respect to the likelihoof of causing a crash,
large price decline without external news occuring)? Do you think
that the relationship between the two is obvious or ambiguous and
why?

I would appreciate your opinion on professional opinion on which
proxies could be potentially used for noise trading (like retail
partcipation, correlation w/closed end fund discount, portfolios of
stocks with low analyst coverage, etc) as well as measures of
crashproness (besides higher orders of the returns distributions?)

I am very open to any comments and suggestions on this topic because
i think it is quite important for optimal portolio decisions of
investors as well as regulatory issues aiming to reduce the
likelihood of crashes.

Regards
Denis

[DEFAULT]
BASEURL=http://www.ess.ucla.edu/faculty/sornette/

[InternetShortcut]
URL=http://www.ess.ucla.edu/faculty/sornette/
Modified=C0A1A9A3B440C30165

Hi members!

Sometimes there are messages referring to websites by an attached .url-file
Many e-mail programs block these files for security reasons
Please include URLs in the msg text if you want to link to a site

Btw, I can only confirm Peter's tip and re-recommend The Economist's survey on
risk!

Thanks, and a good weekend to all
Dominik Schoenenberger

Hi James, I am very keen to read your article on types of biases and
how to be wary of them.

Would you be kind enough to show me the link or attach the file in
this section?

Thanks
--- In Behavioral-Finance@yahoogroups.com, "Montier, James"
<james.montier@d...> wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> I've added two papers on biases that I've written to the files
section of
> the group sight.
>
> Trust you are all well, and my best wishes for 2004
>
> James
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: pgreenfinch [mailto:pgreenfinch@w...]
> Sent: 12 January 2004 16:15
> To: Behavioral-Finance@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Behavioral-Finance] Re: Types of biases and how to be
wary of
> them
>
>
> Hi!
> Thanks for your interest.
> Seems the reason is that the link is to an attachment to
> a group's message, and that since a few months yahoo don't
> keep attachments in the group's messages archives.
> But yahoo gives some storage space for files, instead, at:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Behavioral-Finance/files/
> Maybe James can either give a link to an outside website,
> or enter his article in that file section (as he already
> did with other quite interesting articles), the decision
> is him's, of course.
> Peter
>
>
> --- In Behavioral-Finance@yahoogroups.com, "bfjan04" <bfjan04@y...>
> wrote:
> > Hi all,
> >
> > This site is really helpful for my thesis.  Thanks to Pgreenfinch
> i
> > find a lot of interesting articles in the "Links".
> >
> > However, one article James Montier) on types of biases and how to
> be
> > wary of them cannot be opened. is it possible to attach the link
> once
> > again?
> > Thanks in advance.
>
>
> you may unsubscribe by sending an email to
>
> Behavioral-Finance-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
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>
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Hi all,

I am looking for bibliography that addresses the use of possible worlds
semantics in decision theory, finance and/or economics. I was able to
obtain some references that deal with imprecise probabilities and possible
worlds, and regarding agent's decisions and possible worlds, however, this
last is more computer science oriented. Thus far I have yet to find
references that follow a more economical and financial approach.

I was wondering, since this subject is in some way connected with
behavioural finance (especially in what regards issues like beliefs and
uncertainty), if any of you know of applications of possible worlds
semantics in decision theory, or in any area of finance and economics.

If any of you could help me on this subject I would greatly appreciate it.

Best Regards,

C. Pedro

Just received that from the yahoo group management forum
(it appears also at the top of the groups' home pages)

Dear Yahoo! Groups Members,

Due to a recent outbreak of computer viruses being transmitted via
email messages, Yahoo! Groups is experiencing delays in delivering
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Dear all,

Please find attached a link to a new paper (Running with the Devil: The
advent of a cynical bubble), I've written on the various types of bubbles,
and current market conditions. Comments are as always most welcome.

http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=489262

Kindest regards

James



James Montier

Global Equity Strategist
Capital Markets
Dresdner Kleinwort Wasserstein
* +44 (0)20 7475 6821
* <mailto:james.montier@...>
*mailto:jmontier@...







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