CHICAGOTRANSIT : Messages : 52068-52097 of 52097

http://www.chestertontribune.com/Northwest%20Indiana/south_shore_eyes_fare_hike_\
and_s.htm

South Shore eyes fare hike and service cuts

By PAULENE POPARAD

With fewer riders, less revenue and higher operating costs anticipated
in 2010, the South Shore commuter line will be looking at a fare hike
and possible service reduction in next year’s third quarter.

A staged fare increase similar to the one implemented in 2006/2007 is
being evaluated. Each department also is being reviewed to evaluate
cost-cutting strategies including reductions in force.

That was the news delivered to the Northern Indiana Commuter
Transportation District board of directors Friday by NICTD general
manager Gerald Hanas.

NICTD, a public agency, owns and operates the South Shore between
South Bend and downtown Chicago. Through October 3,267,628 passengers
have ridden NICTD trains or 8.2 percent fewer than 2008.

Taking effect yesterday, in addition to a new weekend schedule, was
restoration of full fares for adults riding weekend/holiday trains.
Promotional price cuts had been in effect since 2003. Hanas said it’s
hoped the fare adjustment will offset passenger revenue losses down
about 4.5 percent year-to-date.

Also affecting the 2010 budget, explained Hanas, is an unexpected
$750,000 annual increase, an 18 percent jump, in the union employee
health-care premiums NICTD pays through a railroad consortium managed
by United Healthcare.

Hanas said the premium hike coupled with a drop in state sales-tax
collections that benefit NICTD, a 20-percent dip in contractual rental
payments from SouthShore Freight and an increase for power costs to
use Metra Electric’s trackage in Illinois will present challenges as
other similar railroads are experiencing in the current economy.

Next year’s South Shore operating plan anticipates gross operating
expenses of approximately $38.4 million but farebox receipts of $18.8
million or a budgeted 49 percent farebox recovery ratio. The operating
loss will be offset by $39.2 million in projected additional revenue
from state, federal and other sources.

Despite the budget constraints, Hanas said NICTD will continue to
pursue its aggressive asset modernization program because it helps
lower maintenance costs and improve reliability.

Rush hour on-time performance has improved from 84.9 percent last year
to 90.6 percent in 2009, according to NICTD, and off-peak performance
improved from 70.8 percent to 84.6 percent this year.

Hanas said NICTD was able to accelerate its ongoing $120 million
upgrade of signal and overhead catenary systems started five years ago
because of targeted federal earmarks. Since Aug. 29, 5.5 miles of
overhead catenary that provides traction power were replaced and 4
miles of auxilliary feeder cable.

“As these earmarks are diminishing and going away, we have scarcer
capital resources,” Hanas advised.

Planned for 2010 are construction of a $15 million dedicated South
Shore track at the Kensington bypass in Illinois, a chronic
bottleneck; delivery of new ticket vending machines; and construction
in Porter County of Phase 2 of the catenary upgrades, which will
require six weekend service outages. Five occurred this year.

Vote to approve the 2010 business plan was unanimous with LaPorte
County Councilman Mark Yagelski and Porter County Commissioner John
Evans absent.

ADA complaints lodged

In other business, Al Piening of Beverly Shores told the NICTD board
that new double-decker train cars put in service earlier this year are
less accessible for handicapped riders than the older-model cars; he
also said the external, hand-operated wheelchair lifts used at some
NICTD stations are not as good as the lifts Metra uses and he
questioned why NICTD removed its lift from the Beverly Shores station.

Board chairman St. Joseph County Councilman Mark Catanzarite said he
finds it hard to believe NICTD’s new trains don’t comply with the
Americans With Disabilities Act. Hanas said an engineering review will
be ordered but the manufacturer asserts ADA compliance.

Catanzarite said NICTD’s goal is to install high-level platforms for
walk-on boarding at the remaining stations, like Dune Park north of
Chesterton, that do not have them.

Parsons said the ADA allows the South Shore to identify “key stations”
that are accessible, and NICTD’s compliance has been reviewed and
meets requirements.

From the audience passenger Bernie Holicky of Chesterton said the
wheelchair lift rolled out when needed at Dune Park seems to work
effectively.

Friday ridership up/down?

In this sluggish economy NICTD marketing director John Parsons said
people are not using trains for shopping and entertainment trips into
Chicago as much as they have in the past.

Last year 4,000 fewer shoppers than in 2006 took trains into the Windy
City the day after Thanksgiving, known as Black Friday when merchants
hope to pull their sales out of the red.

A regular weekday schedule will be operating this Friday while trains
will follow a holiday schedule on Thanksgiving Day.

Average 2009 weekend/off-peak ridership is down 11.7 percent through
October although that figure includes four weekend construction
outages, during which only half the usual number of passengers were
carried, and periodic busing of passengers this fall between South
Bend and Michigan City for bridge reconstruction.

Catanzarite and others bid farewell to outgoing board members whose
seats were eliminated in legislation during the previous Indiana
General Asssembly. Catanzarite said it’s hoped future legislation will
restore the appointments, which had limited voting power.

Retiring are Governor’s appointment David Wickland and Richard
Vulpitta representing commuters. Also eliminated is the seat
representing NICTD employees, which was already vacant due to the
retirement of conductor Dennis Burke.

NICTD covers St. Joseph, LaPorte, Porter and Lake counties and two
elected officials from each are named by them to the NICTD board.

Posted 11/23/2009

Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (1)

#52096

From: "Adam H. Kerman" <ahk@...>
Date: Tue Nov 24, 2009 12:18 am
Subject: Re: Man pushes for more disabled access (NICTD)

ahkatchinetd...

Offline

At 3:16pm -0000, 11/23/09, George <gfoelschow@...> wrote:

>Since there is a demonstrated need for handicapped access at Beverly
>Shores, how much could it possibly cost to build a wood ramp with a
>platform one-car-door in width? Certainly not in the 2 to 3 million dollar
>range. And certainly less than a legal settlement might cost NICTD, not to
>mention poor public relations. For a few extra dollars, it could even be
>fitted with a low tech CA&E-style "flip board" to bridge the gap between
>platform and car. Isn't it pointless for NICTD to debate what ADA does or
>doesn't require?

George, we're discussing transit here. What do low tech, low cost, and
practical decisions have to do with anything?

#52095

From: "George" <gfoelschow@...>
Date: Mon Nov 23, 2009 9:16 pm
Subject: Re: Man pushes for more disabled access (NICTD)

gfoelschow

Offline

Since there is a demonstrated need for handicapped access at Beverly Shores, how
much could it possibly cost to build a wood ramp with a platform one-car-door in
width? Certainly not in the 2 to 3 million dollar range. And certainly less than
a legal settlement might cost NICTD, not to mention poor public relations. For a
few extra dollars, it could even be fitted with a low tech CA&E-style "flip
board" to bridge the gap between platform and car. Isn't it pointless for NICTD
to debate what ADA does or doesn't require?

#52094

From: 3037@...
Date: Mon Nov 23, 2009 3:08 pm
Subject: A Chicago Sun-Times article from: 3037@...

barrydriveso...

Offline

The following article from the Chicago Sun-Times has been forwarded to you by
3037@...

If you wish to stop receiving these articles, please contact the sender.

Comments from the sender:
expanded express bus service starts after thanksgiving.

To read the full story, click here:
http://www.suburbanchicagonews.com/heraldnews/news/1896261,4_1_JO21_PACE_S1-0911\
21.article

Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (1)

#52093

From: "Adam H. Kerman" <ahk@...>
Date: Mon Nov 23, 2009 3:56 am
Subject: Re: converting unlinked trips to ridership

ahkatchinetd...

Offline

At 5:35pm -0000, 11/22/09, roygbenedict@... wrote:

>The short answer is no, I don't know. On CTA my guess would be that a
>linked trip entails about two unlinked trips, on the average.

>BUT, and it's a big but -- I assert that linked trips are an artificial
>concept anyway. Suppose I drive from my house to my place of employment and
>on the way, I get out of my car to mail a letter. Has that act converted my
>one linked trip to work into two linked trips?

Uh, Roy, if the trips are counted separately, they are two UNLINKED trips
that together make up one journey, or one linked trip. And yes, by CTA's
reckoning, you've made two unlinked trips.

>Similarly, suppose that I do the same thing using the Chicago Surface Lines
>and a letter box at a transfer intersection. The CSL probably would have
>said not (if the concept of a linked trip had existed then). But if I
>ducked into the corner store and bought a pack of cigarettes, the CSL would
>have said yes, if the conductor receiving my transfer had caught me at it.

Huh? There were restrictions on what activities you could conduct during a
transfer?

>In other words, linked trips as distinct from unlinked trips are an
>artifact of the transfer rules--which have changed many times since
>transfer tickets were first devised some time in the 1800s.

Of course transfer rules are arbitrary, but a bit of application of common
sense and the passenger's intent makes it rather clear which segments are
linked.

#52092

From: Harvey Kahler <harvey.kahler@...>
Date: Mon Nov 23, 2009 3:51 am
Subject: Re: Man pushes for more disabled access (NICTD)

hkahler400

Offline

Corporate BS. NICTD seems to be a public agency that has lost it's way.
I suppose the State doesn't want to spend any more money for accessible stations while NICTD is violating the spirit of the law by refusing to deploy, or even use crank lifts at nominally accessible stations. IMO they deserve a lawsuit.

--- On Sun, 11/22/09, Bob Matter <rjmatter@...> wrote:

From: Bob Matter <rjmatter@...>
Subject: [CHICAGOTRANSIT] Man pushes for more disabled access (NICTD)
To: cc4cc@yahoogroups.com, chicagotransit@yahoogroups.com, citizenstakingaction@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sunday, November 22, 2009, 11:10 AM

http://thenewsdispa tch.com/main. asp?SectionID= 1&SubSectionID= 1&ArticleID= 27219

11/22/2009 11:00:00 AM

Man pushes for more disabled access

Alicia Ebaugh
Staff Writer

BEVERLY SHORES - Al Piening built his new home across the highway from
the Beverly Shores train station because he thought he'd be able to
easily ride the South Shore into Chicago from there. But he can't - he
uses a wheelchair.

When Piening, a 40-year-old retired psychologist from Oak Park, Ill.,
was looking for a place to build his house, he said the Beverly Shores
station once had a lift to transport people in wheelchairs to and from
the train doors. Right about the time he moved in three years ago, it
was removed. Then he was told he'd have to use another station, one
that's handicapped accessible.

"I can't believe that, in 2009, there is still this mentality of
'separate but equal,'" Piening said. "It's like saying to a black
person, 'You can't eat here, but you can eat there.'"

NITCD officials say the Americans With Disabilities Act does not
require them to provide access at all South Shore stations. According
to the law, commuter train lines are only required to provide
handicapped access at "key stations," which are larger and have high
ridership.

The South Shore provides handicapped access at six stations it has
identified as the busiest, said John Parsons, NICTD planning and
marketing director, including at Dune Park, the next stop west of
Beverly Shores.

"ADA rules vary based on the mode of transportation, " Parsons said.
"For commuter rail, you are required to provide access at key
stations. This station has never been handicapped accessible."

Despite his limited access, Piening got off and on the train at
Beverly Shores until April 2008, when a letter from L. Charles
Lukmann, NICTD attorney, instructed him to stop.

"Our ADA accessible stations are clearly listed in our timetable and
system map which includes both the Dune Park and Portage/Ogden Dunes
stations. Should you desire to utilize the South Shore Railroad, you
should avail yourself of the aforementioned ADA accessible stations as
you will not be permitted, under any circumstances, to board or
disembark at Beverly Shores in the future," the letter stated.

Under the Americans with Disabilities Act, NICTD is not required to
board passengers if the action presents a safety concern for the
passenger or crew, which it clearly does at Beverly Shores, Lukmann
wrote.

"This is not about safety. You can clearly see the Beverly Shores
station is accessible in every way," Piening said, noting the open
sidewalks and wide station doors. There were even two handicapped
spaces in the parking lot there, he said, until they took the signs
out. There is still faded blue paint marking where the spots stood.

Parsons said the lift at Beverly Shores was only there temporarily
while NICTD was busing passengers around construction at Dune Park.
But that isn't true, said Teresa Torres, executive director of
Merrillville- based non-profit Everybody Counts, a group dedicated to
the empowerment and independence of people with disabilities.

"It was there for quite a while. I knew people who used it for two
years," she said. "Even if that was true, why would you take away an
accessibility measure after you've provided it?"

Piening brought his case to Everybody Counts after he received the
letter from NICTD, he said.

"I am not asking for any special treatment. All I want is for a lift
to be provided," he said.

However, Parsons said NICTD has no intention of making the Beverly
Shores station handicapped accessible - now or in the future.

"It takes longer to board passengers using the crank lifts, which
delays the trains. And we already have accessible stations in close
proximity," he said. "Our plans have been reviewed and approved, they
are in compliance with federal law."

Crank lifts, which have to be manually cranked by a train conductor,
are still used for handicapped access at South Shore's station on
Carroll Avenue, as well as in South Bend, Gary and Dune Park, Parsons
said. The preferred method of access is raised platforms, which have
been installed in Hammond and Hegewisch, and were also built in East
Chicago when that station was modified even though it is not a "key
station."

"Those cost $2 to $3 million to build, though, and we are trying to
phase those in," he said.

Even though NICTD is considered to be following ADA regulations,
Torres said neglecting to provide access at all its stations is
"voluntary ignorance" of what the ADA was meant to do. It all stems
from a lack of recognition on the part of politicians and community
leaders that access is a serious problem for wheelchair-bound
individuals.

"The law was meant to ensure equal access, not for people to use as an
excuse to mandate separate service," she said.

###

#52091

From: clayton mclean <claytonmcln@...>
Date: Mon Nov 23, 2009 12:29 am
Subject: Re: Man pushes for more disabled access (NICTD)

claytonmcln

Online Now

NICTD can give half-baked rationales to violate the spirit, if not the letter, of ADA regulations, until the cows come home, but the fact is this: Their position is simply unconscionable and repugnant.

C
--- On Sun, 11/22/09, Bob Matter <rjmatter@...> wrote:

From: Bob Matter <rjmatter@...>
Subject: [CHICAGOTRANSIT] Man pushes for more disabled access (NICTD)
To: cc4cc@yahoogroups.com, chicagotransit@yahoogroups.com, citizenstakingaction@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sunday, November 22, 2009, 9:10 AM

http://thenewsdispa tch.com/main. asp?SectionID= 1&SubSectionID= 1&ArticleID= 27219

11/22/2009 11:00:00 AM

Man pushes for more disabled access

Alicia Ebaugh
Staff Writer

BEVERLY SHORES - Al Piening built his new home across the highway from
the Beverly Shores train station because he thought he'd be able to
easily ride the South Shore into Chicago from there. But he can't - he
uses a wheelchair.

When Piening, a 40-year-old retired psychologist from Oak Park, Ill.,
was looking for a place to build his house, he said the Beverly Shores
station once had a lift to transport people in wheelchairs to and from
the train doors. Right about the time he moved in three years ago, it
was removed. Then he was told he'd have to use another station, one
that's handicapped accessible.

"I can't believe that, in 2009, there is still this mentality of
'separate but equal,'" Piening said. "It's like saying to a black
person, 'You can't eat here, but you can eat there.'"

NITCD officials say the Americans With Disabilities Act does not
require them to provide access at all South Shore stations. According
to the law, commuter train lines are only required to provide
handicapped access at "key stations," which are larger and have high
ridership.

The South Shore provides handicapped access at six stations it has
identified as the busiest, said John Parsons, NICTD planning and
marketing director, including at Dune Park, the next stop west of
Beverly Shores.

"ADA rules vary based on the mode of transportation, " Parsons said.
"For commuter rail, you are required to provide access at key
stations. This station has never been handicapped accessible."

Despite his limited access, Piening got off and on the train at
Beverly Shores until April 2008, when a letter from L. Charles
Lukmann, NICTD attorney, instructed him to stop.

"Our ADA accessible stations are clearly listed in our timetable and
system map which includes both the Dune Park and Portage/Ogden Dunes
stations. Should you desire to utilize the South Shore Railroad, you
should avail yourself of the aforementioned ADA accessible stations as
you will not be permitted, under any circumstances, to board or
disembark at Beverly Shores in the future," the letter stated.

Under the Americans with Disabilities Act, NICTD is not required to
board passengers if the action presents a safety concern for the
passenger or crew, which it clearly does at Beverly Shores, Lukmann
wrote.

"This is not about safety. You can clearly see the Beverly Shores
station is accessible in every way," Piening said, noting the open
sidewalks and wide station doors. There were even two handicapped
spaces in the parking lot there, he said, until they took the signs
out. There is still faded blue paint marking where the spots stood.

Parsons said the lift at Beverly Shores was only there temporarily
while NICTD was busing passengers around construction at Dune Park.
But that isn't true, said Teresa Torres, executive director of
Merrillville- based non-profit Everybody Counts, a group dedicated to
the empowerment and independence of people with disabilities.

"It was there for quite a while. I knew people who used it for two
years," she said. "Even if that was true, why would you take away an
accessibility measure after you've provided it?"

Piening brought his case to Everybody Counts after he received the
letter from NICTD, he said.

"I am not asking for any special treatment. All I want is for a lift
to be provided," he said.

However, Parsons said NICTD has no intention of making the Beverly
Shores station handicapped accessible - now or in the future.

"It takes longer to board passengers using the crank lifts, which
delays the trains. And we already have accessible stations in close
proximity," he said. "Our plans have been reviewed and approved, they
are in compliance with federal law."

Crank lifts, which have to be manually cranked by a train conductor,
are still used for handicapped access at South Shore's station on
Carroll Avenue, as well as in South Bend, Gary and Dune Park, Parsons
said. The preferred method of access is raised platforms, which have
been installed in Hammond and Hegewisch, and were also built in East
Chicago when that station was modified even though it is not a "key
station."

"Those cost $2 to $3 million to build, though, and we are trying to
phase those in," he said.

Even though NICTD is considered to be following ADA regulations,
Torres said neglecting to provide access at all its stations is
"voluntary ignorance" of what the ADA was meant to do. It all stems
from a lack of recognition on the part of politicians and community
leaders that access is a serious problem for wheelchair-bound
individuals.

"The law was meant to ensure equal access, not for people to use as an
excuse to mandate separate service," she said.

###

#52090

From: "roygbenedict@..." <roygbenedict@...>
Date: Sun Nov 22, 2009 11:35 pm
Subject: Re: converting unlinked trips to ridership

roy_g_benedict

Offline

The short answer is no, I don't know. On CTA my guess would be that a linked
trip entails about two unlinked trips, on the average.

BUT, and it's a big but -- I assert that linked trips are an artificial concept
anyway. Suppose I drive from my house to my place of employment and on the way,
I get out of my car to mail a letter. Has that act converted my one linked trip
to work into two linked trips? Similarly, suppose that I do the same thing using
the Chicago Surface Lines and a letter box at a transfer intersection. The CSL
probably would have said not (if the concept of a linked trip had existed then).
But if I ducked into the corner store and bought a pack of cigarettes, the CSL
would have said yes, if the conductor receiving my transfer had caught me at it.

In other words, linked trips as distinct from unlinked trips are an artifact of
the transfer rules--which have changed many times since transfer tickets were
first devised some time in the 1800s.

The invention of the weekly pass (1919), the monthly commutation ticket (earlier
than that), or the day pass (later than that) suggested a more objective measure
of transit service: As much as the customer wishes to use for some period of
time.

ROY G. BENEDICT, 3511 N. Pittsburgh Ave., Chicago IL 60634
R-Benedict-11@...
Voice, message and fax:  (773) 625-5263
.
.

From: Dennis McClendon <dennismcclendon@...>
To: CHICAGOTRANSIT@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [CHICAGOTRANSIT] converting unlinked trips to ridership
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 08:33:26 -0600

For CTA or RTA, does anyone know what conversion factor would be
appropriate for converting unlinked trips to journeys or to riders?

#52089

From: "roygbenedict@..." <roygbenedict@...>
Date: Sun Nov 22, 2009 11:17 pm
Subject: Re: Man pushes for more disabled access (NICTD)

roy_g_benedict

Offline

I doubt that Ms. Torres is correct in saying that a portable lift was at Beverly
Shores for an extended period of time. I do remember when there was a bus link
between Beverly Shores and Dune Park because of construction in between; it
happens that I was traveling that day between Hammond and Carroll Avenue, and I
remember assisting a couple with luggage at their boarding station and to and
from the bus.

As a key station under ADA regulations, Dune Park has a portable lift; it lives
in the breezeway between the parking lot and the train platform and is deployed
by train crews when needed. The flag stop at Beverly Shores had a portable lift
during the bus transfer period but not otherwise as there was no place to house
it. The same could be said of Miller during a temoirary bus link there on
another occasion; the lift was just tied to a post when not in use so that it
would not roll into a hazardous position. You would not want to leave the lift
out in the weather like that for any substantial length of time.

In a perfect world all rail stations would be accessible, but as we all know in
the real world there is a relationship between the amount of expense and the
amount of benefit. Of 20 stations served by South Shore Line trains, 14 (70%)
are accessible, which is a substantially higher percentage than for CTA rail.

Incidentally, Al is a past president of the C&NW Historical Society. If I were
on his wheels, living within easy distance from Beverly Shores station I, too,
would like to have accessibility features at that point. But I cannot see that
ADA requires it. Of the 6 non-accessible South Shore Line stopping places, I
doubt that Beverly Shores is the most heavily used one.

ROY G. BENEDICT, 3511 N. Pittsburgh Ave., Chicago IL 60634
R-Benedict-11@...
Voice, message and fax:  (773) 625-5263
.
.

From: Bob Matter <rjmatter@...>
To: cc4cc@yahoogroups.com, chicagotransit@yahoogroups.com, 
citizenstakingaction@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [CHICAGOTRANSIT] Man pushes for more disabled access (NICTD)
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 2009 11:10:05 -0600

[Quoting from a report in the Michigan City News-Dispatch]:
. . . Parsons said the lift at Beverly Shores was only there temporarily
while NICTD was busing passengers around construction at Dune Park.
But that isn't true, said Teresa Torres, executive director of
Merrillville-based non-profit Everybody Counts, a group dedicated to
the empowerment and independence of people with disabilities. . . .

#52088

From: Bob Matter <rjmatter@...>
Date: Sun Nov 22, 2009 5:10 pm
Subject: Man pushes for more disabled access (NICTD)

rjmatter00

Offline

http://thenewsdispatch.com/main.asp?SectionID=1&SubSectionID=1&ArticleID=27219

11/22/2009 11:00:00 AM

Man pushes for more disabled access

Alicia Ebaugh
Staff Writer

BEVERLY SHORES - Al Piening built his new home across the highway from
the Beverly Shores train station because he thought he'd be able to
easily ride the South Shore into Chicago from there. But he can't - he
uses a wheelchair.

When Piening, a 40-year-old retired psychologist from Oak Park, Ill.,
was looking for a place to build his house, he said the Beverly Shores
station once had a lift to transport people in wheelchairs to and from
the train doors. Right about the time he moved in three years ago, it
was removed. Then he was told he'd have to use another station, one
that's handicapped accessible.

"I can't believe that, in 2009, there is still this mentality of
'separate but equal,'" Piening said. "It's like saying to a black
person, 'You can't eat here, but you can eat there.'"

NITCD officials say the Americans With Disabilities Act does not
require them to provide access at all South Shore stations. According
to the law, commuter train lines are only required to provide
handicapped access at "key stations," which are larger and have high
ridership.

The South Shore provides handicapped access at six stations it has
identified as the busiest, said John Parsons, NICTD planning and
marketing director, including at Dune Park, the next stop west of
Beverly Shores.

"ADA rules vary based on the mode of transportation," Parsons said.
"For commuter rail, you are required to provide access at key
stations. This station has never been handicapped accessible."

Despite his limited access, Piening got off and on the train at
Beverly Shores until April 2008, when a letter from L. Charles
Lukmann, NICTD attorney, instructed him to stop.

"Our ADA accessible stations are clearly listed in our timetable and
system map which includes both the Dune Park and Portage/Ogden Dunes
stations. Should you desire to utilize the South Shore Railroad, you
should avail yourself of the aforementioned ADA accessible stations as
you will not be permitted, under any circumstances, to board or
disembark at Beverly Shores in the future," the letter stated.

Under the Americans with Disabilities Act, NICTD is not required to
board passengers if the action presents a safety concern for the
passenger or crew, which it clearly does at Beverly Shores, Lukmann
wrote.

"This is not about safety. You can clearly see the Beverly Shores
station is accessible in every way," Piening said, noting the open
sidewalks and wide station doors. There were even two handicapped
spaces in the parking lot there, he said, until they took the signs
out. There is still faded blue paint marking where the spots stood.

Parsons said the lift at Beverly Shores was only there temporarily
while NICTD was busing passengers around construction at Dune Park.
But that isn't true, said Teresa Torres, executive director of
Merrillville-based non-profit Everybody Counts, a group dedicated to
the empowerment and independence of people with disabilities.

"It was there for quite a while. I knew people who used it for two
years," she said. "Even if that was true, why would you take away an
accessibility measure after you've provided it?"

Piening brought his case to Everybody Counts after he received the
letter from NICTD, he said.

"I am not asking for any special treatment. All I want is for a lift
to be provided," he said.

However, Parsons said NICTD has no intention of making the Beverly
Shores station handicapped accessible - now or in the future.

"It takes longer to board passengers using the crank lifts, which
delays the trains. And we already have accessible stations in close
proximity," he said. "Our plans have been reviewed and approved, they
are in compliance with federal law."

Crank lifts, which have to be manually cranked by a train conductor,
are still used for handicapped access at South Shore's station on
Carroll Avenue, as well as in South Bend, Gary and Dune Park, Parsons
said. The preferred method of access is raised platforms, which have
been installed in Hammond and Hegewisch, and were also built in East
Chicago when that station was modified even though it is not a "key
station."

"Those cost $2 to $3 million to build, though, and we are trying to
phase those in," he said.

Even though NICTD is considered to be following ADA regulations,
Torres said neglecting to provide access at all its stations is
"voluntary ignorance" of what the ADA was meant to do. It all stems
from a lack of recognition on the part of politicians and community
leaders that access is a serious problem for wheelchair-bound
individuals.

"The law was meant to ensure equal access, not for people to use as an
excuse to mandate separate service," she said.

###

#52087

From: Harvey Kahler <harvey.kahler@...>
Date: Sat Nov 21, 2009 6:55 am
Subject: Re: Commuter Bridges Need Upgrades

hkahler400

Offline

70% for Metra seems a little high, given much of the Rock and UPNW have been totally redone, and spot improvements have been made on the BNSF and MD.

--- On Fri, 11/20/09, Frank Kennedy <capofrank@...> wrote:

From: Frank Kennedy <capofrank@...>
Subject: [CHICAGOTRANSIT] Commuter Bridges Need Upgrades
To: "Chicago Transit" <CHICAGOTRANSIT@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Friday, November 20, 2009, 10:01 PM

CHICAGO - The majority of Metra bridges and a significant number of
CTA bridges are apparently past their "useful life." The Daily Herald
reports a preliminary assessment presented Friday to the Regional
Transit Authority board indicates 70-percent of Metra bridges and
42-percent of CTA bridges need upgrades.

The report is being compiled as part of the RTA's Regional Transit
Strategic Plan, and the final version should be out in January.

Copyright Â© 2009, WGN-TV, Chicago

Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (3)

#52086

From: Larry M <minnman554212000@...>
Date: Sat Nov 21, 2009 6:06 am
Subject: Re: Commuter Bridges Need Upgrades

minnman55421...

Offline

I have to wonder what criteria is used to determine "useful life"? If it is 70 percent, for example, does this mean that every bridge will have to be torn down and replaced? What difference is the weight of these trains now compared to what they were 40 to 70 years ago? I know that on the CNW North Line the Hudsons and Northerns were not able to run which I suppose was due to weight restrictions or perhaps clearance. The 35W bridge collapse was due to gusset plates that were too thin and the heavy weght of paving machinery on the bridge at the time of the failure. Aren't most of these bridges approaching far more than 70 years old?

Larry

--- On Fri, 11/20/09, Frank Kennedy <capofrank@...> wrote:

From: Frank Kennedy <capofrank@...>
Subject: [CHICAGOTRANSIT] Commuter Bridges Need Upgrades
To: "Chicago Transit" <CHICAGOTRANSIT@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Friday, November 20, 2009, 10:01 PM

CHICAGO - The majority of Metra bridges and a significant number of
CTA bridges are apparently past their "useful life." The Daily Herald
reports a preliminary assessment presented Friday to the Regional
Transit Authority board indicates 70-percent of Metra bridges and
42-percent of CTA bridges need upgrades.

The report is being compiled as part of the RTA's Regional Transit
Strategic Plan, and the final version should be out in January.

Copyright Â© 2009, WGN-TV, Chicago

Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (3)

#52085

From: Frank Kennedy <capofrank@...>
Date: Sat Nov 21, 2009 4:01 am
Subject: Commuter Bridges Need Upgrades

capofrank

Offline

CHICAGO - The majority of Metra bridges and a significant number of
CTA bridges are apparently past their "useful life." The Daily Herald
reports a preliminary assessment presented Friday to the Regional
Transit Authority board indicates 70-percent of Metra bridges and
42-percent of CTA bridges need upgrades.

The report is being compiled as part of the RTA's Regional Transit
Strategic Plan, and the final version should be out in January.

Copyright © 2009, WGN-TV, Chicago

Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (3)

#52084

From: Harvey Kahler <harvey.kahler@...>
Date: Fri Nov 20, 2009 9:11 pm
Subject: Re: converting unlinked trips to ridership

hkahler400

Offline

Basically, count just the initial full or reduced fare. Unfortunately, when CTA did away with cash fare transfers, the resulting double or triple cash fares for a trip by one person are over-counted. Even so, this might be estimated by using the proportion of farecard transfers to initial rides.
Monthly pass use may be another area where an assumption of use is made. Not being familiar with the CTA system, I have no idea how initial use and transfers are tracked, or how use compares to sales.

--- On Fri, 11/20/09, Dennis McClendon <dennismcclendon@...> wrote:

From: Dennis McClendon <dennismcclendon@...>
Subject: [CHICAGOTRANSIT] converting unlinked trips to ridership
To: CHICAGOTRANSIT@yahoogroups.com
Date: Friday, November 20, 2009, 8:33 AM

For CTA or RTA, does anyone know what conversion factor would be
appropriate for converting unlinked trips to journeys or to riders?

:::::::::::: ::::::::: ::::::::: :::::::
Dennis McClendon
dennismcclendon@ gmail.com

#52083

From: "Adam H. Kerman" <ahk@...>
Date: Fri Nov 20, 2009 6:27 pm
Subject: Re: converting unlinked trips to ridership

ahkatchinetd...

Offline

At 8:33am -0000, 11/20/09, Dennis McClendon <dennismcclendon@...> wrote:

>For CTA or RTA, does anyone know what conversion factor would be
>appropriate for converting unlinked trips to journeys or to riders?

I would call John Paquet's office, vice president of planning and
development, 312 681-4200, for guidance. This information is known from
statistics from fare media usage. I'll guess that an assumption about linked
trips when a pass is used and each trip originates in a two-hour window.

Now that trips made by seniors are free, that's likely altered a lot of
behavior. CTA uses an average fare per unlinked trip and I have no idea how
this calculation is made with free senior fares. The raw data for this
formula won't answer your question because it doesn't involve calculating
which trips made by pass users are transfers. I know that when Pace assigns
farebox revenue to route from pass users, it's simply a calculation of the
number of unlinked trips made and apportioning these trips between Pace and
CTA. I assume CTA does the same thing.

If the linked trip involves Metra, I guess you would assume that any trips
recorded on PlusBus (Pace only) or Link-Up (Pace and CTA) are linked but
that's not safe on Pace as the passes function like monthlies. But these are
sold only to Metra or South Shore monthly pass holders. I don't believe
there are any surveys taken of CTA and Pace passengers who transfer to Metra
under other circumstances, because these statistics cannot be developed from
fare media data.

At Metra, call Lynette Ciavarella, director of planning and analysis. 312
322-8022, but I don't think Metra has done any surveying like this recently.

#52082

From: Dennis McClendon <dennismcclendon@...>
Date: Fri Nov 20, 2009 2:33 pm
Subject: converting unlinked trips to ridership

southlooplis...

Offline

For CTA or RTA, does anyone know what conversion factor would be
appropriate for converting unlinked trips to journeys or to riders?

:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
Dennis McClendon
dennismcclendon@...

#52081

From: Eric Pancer <epancer@...>
Date: Thu Nov 19, 2009 4:28 pm
Subject: Re: The CTA should bring back conductors on Red Line trains

vxla

Offline

On Thu, Nov 19, 2009 at 10:17, Robert Leffingwell <boilerbob7@...> wrote:
> Unlike the operator, the conductor is able to look at the train after it
starts moving. He would quickly see anything being dragged by the train.

You didn't answer the question.  My question to you is:

> --- On Wed, 11/18/09, Eric Pancer <epancer@...> wrote:
> And more importantly, how would a conductor have prevented an unruly
> passenger from sticking something in the doors, then claiming it was
> the CTA's fault?

Straw man tactics aside, what's your reasoning?

- Eric

#52080

From: Robert Leffingwell <boilerbob7@...>
Date: Thu Nov 19, 2009 4:17 pm
Subject: Re: The CTA should bring back conductors on Red Line trains

boilerbob7

Offline

Unlike the operator, the conductor is able to look at the train after it starts moving. He would quickly see anything being dragged by the train.
--- On Wed, 11/18/09, Eric Pancer <epancer@...> wrote:

From: Eric Pancer <epancer@...>
Subject: Re: [CHICAGOTRANSIT] The CTA should bring back conductors on Red Line trains
To: CHICAGOTRANSIT@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, November 18, 2009, 11:36 PM

On Wed, Nov 18, 2009 at 22:00, Dennis McClendon
<dennismcclendon@ gmail.com> wrote:
> How would a conductor have any more knowledge than a motorman about
> whether a door in another car had closed?

And more importantly, how would a conductor have prevented an unruly
passenger from sticking something in the doors, then claiming it was
the CTA's fault?

- Eric

#52079

From: Eric Pancer <epancer@...>
Date: Thu Nov 19, 2009 5:36 am
Subject: Re: The CTA should bring back conductors on Red Line trains

vxla

Offline

On Wed, Nov 18, 2009 at 22:00, Dennis McClendon
<dennismcclendon@...> wrote:
> How would a conductor have any more knowledge than a motorman about
> whether a door in another car had closed?

And more importantly, how would a conductor have prevented an unruly
passenger from sticking something in the doors, then claiming it was
the CTA's fault?

- Eric

#52078

From: Dennis McClendon <dennismcclendon@...>
Date: Thu Nov 19, 2009 4:00 am
Subject: Re: The CTA should bring back conductors on Red Line trains

southlooplis...

Offline

How would a conductor have any more knowledge than a motorman about
whether a door in another car had closed?

:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
Dennis McClendon
dennismcclendon@...

#52077

From: Frank Kennedy <capofrank@...>
Date: Thu Nov 19, 2009 3:46 am
Subject: The CTA should bring back conductors on Red Line trains

capofrank

Offline

From Chicago Breaking News:


The CTA should bring back conductors on Red Line trains as a safety
measure or remove all trains from service for inspections until the
problem of open doors on moving trains is solved, a transit union
leader said today.

The call for drastic action was issued by Robert Kelly, president of
Local 308 of the Amalgamated Transit Union, based on two recent
incidents.

In one, a toddler in a stroller apparently became caught in train
doors on Nov. 2 at the Morse station on the Red Line. The child was
flung trackside, but she suffered only minor injuries.

Then on Sunday, passengers reported that one set of doors failed to
close on a Red Line train as it traveled from the Addison station to
the Sheridan stop, according to the CTA. No injuries were reported.

Both incidents are under investigation.

"We've dodged a bullet,'' Kelly said in reference to nobody being
killed or seriously injured in either incident. "But we have a door
problem here because with the doors open, the trains should not have
been allowed to move.

"And those trains moved at full speed, so it's obvious that the
fail-safe (mechanism) is not fail-safe.''

CTA officials responded by saying problems with trains' sensitive door
edges, which determine whether a door stays shut or pops open, are
relatively uncommon, and that there is no systemic issue that should
worry riders.

"Every side door in CTA's rail car fleet has a sensitive rubber edge
that has been problematic in the past,'' CTA spokeswoman Sheila
Gregory said. "However, all sensitive door edges were replaced in 2008
with a more reliable design. Over the past eight months, sensitive
door-edge issues accounted for only 3 percent of total rail car
problems.''

In the second incident on Sunday, an off-duty CTA train operator
witnessed the open door on the moving train, according to riders and
the CTA. The off-duty employee was violating policy by riding inside
the enclosed cab of a rail car and talking on his cell phone, Gregory
said.

The trains involved in both events are the CTA's 2600 series cars,
which are some of the oldest in the fleet, averaging about 25 years
old. The 2600 series trains also represent about half the cars in the
CTA system, operating on the Red, Blue, Pink, and Purple Lines.

CTA officials initially said the doors on the Red Line train at Morse
appeared to function properly. When tested after the accident, the
doors bounced open in response to pressure placed on the edges.

But Chicago police and CTA President Richard Rodriguez later said the
account related by the toddler's mother appeared credible. Traces of
paint on the stroller and a scratch on a CTA guard rail supported the
mother's story that the stroller became caught in the doors and
dragged by the train pulling out of the station, officials said.

The train operator is on unpaid suspension. She said she did not see
the stroller when she visually checked before departing the Morse
station, union officials said.

Kelly said human error by the train operator was not likely. He
insisted some unidentified flaw in the safety mechanisms are failing
to prevent trains with open doors from moving.

Kelly acknowledged it is unlikely the CTA would park all its trains
pending the outcome of the investigation.

He called for a return to two-person operations -- a rail motorman and
a conductor whose duties include operating the doors. The CTA phased
out conductors in the early 1990s in a cost-cutting move that
officials said did not compromise safety.

The transit agency has no intention to bring back conductors, Gregory
said, adding that the shift to one-person train crews is saving the
cash-strapped transit agency about $19 million a year.

--Jon Hilkevitch



http://www.chicagobreakingnews.com/2009/11/transit-union-leader-urges-cta-action\
-on-door-problem.html

#52076

From: Larry M <minnman554212000@...>
Date: Sun Nov 15, 2009 6:47 am
Subject: Re: Re:was (North Coast Hiawatha photos) Amtrak Photo Policy

minnman55421...

Offline

As I said part of the issue may be lawsuits but I also find it possibly an East Coast mentality that once made photography a holy sin on any number of properties until threats of the ACLU took care of that. MSP requires passengers to go thru a gate where their tickets are checked to get on the platform. It has always been like that. Basically you can pick whether our situation here is more people control or if it is due to the photography so called policy.

Larry

--- On Sat, 11/14/09, Barry Smith <kneesox43@...> wrote:

From: Barry Smith <kneesox43@...>
Subject: Re: [CHICAGOTRANSIT] Re: North Coast Hiawatha photos
To: CHICAGOTRANSIT@yahoogroups.com
Date: Saturday, November 14, 2009, 11:37 AM

Hi Y'All,

I see what Amtrak's "problem" is! It's simply another bureaucracy where the

"right hand doesn't know what the left hand's doing and vice versa"!

I'm a fourth generation native of "Uncle Sam's Company Town" and I have

spent most of my working life with some in federal service but mostly as a

contractor. The local trolley museum's "leadership" suffers from the same

"affliction" !

Barry "Barri" Smith

From: Harvey Kahler <harvey.kahler@ att.net>
To: CHICAGOTRANSIT@ yahoogroups. com
Sent: Sat, November 14, 2009 12:09:23 PM
Subject: [CHICAGOTRANSIT] Re: North Coast Hiawatha photos

Fine. Talk with Sen Obrstar.
But why "cooperate" with Amtrak providing materials that were obtained in public access areas under circumstances that are no longer permitted? (This does not include photos taken from other railway property and structures which is a whole different matter.) How can Amtrak condone photos taken contrary to current rules? If it's somehow bad now; wasn't it bad then?
Why should it take samples of your photos either to prove your intentions or to impress others of your skill to be allowed to bend the new rules?
I read the articles and discussions of Amtak's photo policy and am very circumspect with my photography, shooting mostly from public areas now to minimize any encounter. When challenged, I politely provide my identification and explain my reasons.
The trickiest part is finding a place to park since road shoulders are for emergency use only. Stopping or parking is a quick way to get unwanted attention. Then there are the Good Samaritans who stop to ask if you need help.

--- On Fri, 11/13/09, Larry M <minnman554212000@ yahoo.com> wrote:

From: Larry M <minnman554212000@ yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [CHICAGOTRANSIT] Re: North Coast Hiawatha restart
To: CHICAGOTRANSIT@ yahoogroups. com
Date: Friday, November 13, 2009, 9:42 PM

Right, Harvey. That will go straight to the circular file. I may contact Jim Oberstar's office since we are both members of a cycling club in Duluth (foot powered). I have never personally met him but he certainly would have far more influence than a senseless boycott. Right now Amtrak has all they can do to meet their demand on many of their trains. That is one of the reasons they want to add the NCH.

The proper way is to work with and not against Amtrak (or any other organization or company). I found that out today with the agent at MSP who saw my work and gave me tacit approval to photography the Builder when he is on duty. I also want to point out that this problem is not at every Amtrak station either. I had no issues in Vermont at the very busy White River Junction station. The ultimate decision is more with the individual station and the people that are in there. It just happened that this gentleman is also a photographer and rail fan who I respect and he respects me.

I strongly suggest you take the time to read some of the articles on this matter in Trains Magazine that have covered everything from Amtrak's rules to how to conduct yourself in case there is an issue. Do this before you come up with an like boycotting. I doubt that you would have any support from the historical societies either. They are more concerned on having a positive relationship with the carriers than a negative one.

--- On Fri, 11/13/09, Harvey Kahler <harvey.kahler@ att.net> wrote:

From: Harvey Kahler <harvey.kahler@ att.net>
Subject: Re: [CHICAGOTRANSIT] Re: North Coast Hiawatha restart
To: CHICAGOTRANSIT@ yahoogroups. com
Date: Friday, November 13, 2009, 8:19 PM

Point taken.
I'd say organize a boycott by railway historical societies until they relax their rules.

--- On Fri, 11/13/09, c902080 <nicholls@uic. edu> wrote:

From: c902080 <nicholls@uic. edu>
Subject: [CHICAGOTRANSIT] Re: North Coast Hiawatha restart
To: CHICAGOTRANSIT@ yahoogroups. com
Date: Friday, November 13, 2009, 12:56 PM

So Amtrak do not want enthusiasts to take photographs of their trains but their communications officer is asking for help in getting a historical photograph of one of their trains from those same enthusiasts! Seems like a double standard.

--- In CHICAGOTRANSIT@ yahoogroups. com, Larry M <minnman554212000@ ...> wrote:
>
> I had a request from Amtrak's communication officer to send pictures of the long gone North Coast Hiawatha that can be used in Ink, their monthly publication. This story relates to a request by Amtrak to reinstate the North Coast Hiawatha. Hopefully their request can be granted and at the same time we can have a second Chicago to Twin Cities train. Maybe they can make it three times a week west of the Twin Cities as it was prior to the Carter purge in 1979.
>
> Larry
>

#52075

From: Larry M <minnman554212000@...>
Date: Sun Nov 15, 2009 6:42 am
Subject: Re: Re: North Coast Hiawatha photos

minnman55421...

Offline

First it is Congressman Oberstar. Coincidentally I did run into Senator Amy Klobuchar at Coon Rapids, MN at the Northstar open house but only to photograph her. I will be also contacting her office regarding the issue as it was neither the time nor the place.

I do not have a problem parking with a handicapped sticker and had no issues today at any of the three Northstar stations I worked at taking well over 200 pictures. As for showing my work the person I talked to at the MSP station was someone I already had talked to. Am I really cooperating with Amtrak? I do what I have to do to get the job done and it is as simple as that. Today I also had my BNSF's Citizens for Security tag on which is what Amtrak and other carriers should consider. We are the eyes of the railroad and BNSF is smart enough to see that. I had 110 percent cooperation from law enforcement as well.

There are plenty of us within the community that are doing our best to convince Amtrak to change their policy. I have been in contact with Jim Wrinn at Trains Magazine several time and they're fighting this as well. I also think that in many cases the so called rule is possibly more stringently complied with in major metropolitan areas. I doubt that anyone in Fargo is going to give a rip. Certainly nobody did at the White River Jct. station.

I worked for the Milwaukee Road during summers and weekends at Tower A-20 and Rondout. I saw some really dumb stunts by so called railfans including walking on instead of over the rail and being either on or very close to a powered switch Luckily the switches at A20 were electric and slow but A2 at Western Avenue was air powered and could literally crush a leg. I had to play a dual role first as a railfan but secondly as an employee.

As for showing my stuff that too does not hurt. If anything we have become such a litigatious society that Amtrak is more than likely afraid of some idiot getting hurt and then blaming Amtrak for their stupidity. My work is part of my credentials and sometimes it helps, other times it may not. My Washington contact a few years back said it was up to the agent and still seems to be true.

Finally, Harvey, years ago SP had a poor reputation for photography. The first year at Mountain View I took a picture of the northbound Daylight which got the agent upset. The next year I went to corporate headquarters in a full suit and talked to the public relations manager. He made it very clear that as long as I was where the public could go it was fine. If any SP employee didn't like it George Kraus would take care of it. I also might have mentioned the problem the year before. Sure enough, I went back to the same location and that agent bent over backwards to be nice to me! You see, Harvey, you have to talk up and be positive.

Larry

--- On Sat, 11/14/09, Harvey Kahler <harvey.kahler@...> wrote:

From: Harvey Kahler <harvey.kahler@...>
Subject: [CHICAGOTRANSIT] Re: North Coast Hiawatha photos
To: CHICAGOTRANSIT@yahoogroups.com
Date: Saturday, November 14, 2009, 11:09 AM

Fine. Talk with Sen Obrstar.
But why "cooperate" with Amtrak providing materials that were obtained in public access areas under circumstances that are no longer permitted? (This does not include photos taken from other railway property and structures which is a whole different matter.) How can Amtrak condone photos taken contrary to current rules? If it's somehow bad now; wasn't it bad then?
Why should it take samples of your photos either to prove your intentions or to impress others of your skill to be allowed to bend the new rules?
I read the articles and discussions of Amtak's photo policy and am very circumspect with my photography, shooting mostly from public areas now to minimize any encounter. When challenged, I politely provide my identification and explain my reasons.
The trickiest part is finding a place to park since road shoulders are for emergency use only. Stopping or parking is a quick way to get unwanted attention. Then there are the Good Samaritans who stop to ask if you need help.

--- On Fri, 11/13/09, Larry M <minnman554212000@ yahoo.com> wrote:

From: Larry M <minnman554212000@ yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [CHICAGOTRANSIT] Re: North Coast Hiawatha restart
To: CHICAGOTRANSIT@ yahoogroups. com
Date: Friday, November 13, 2009, 9:42 PM

Right, Harvey. That will go straight to the circular file. I may contact Jim Oberstar's office since we are both members of a cycling club in Duluth (foot powered). I have never personally met him but he certainly would have far more influence than a senseless boycott. Right now Amtrak has all they can do to meet their demand on many of their trains. That is one of the reasons they want to add the NCH.

The proper way is to work with and not against Amtrak (or any other organization or company). I found that out today with the agent at MSP who saw my work and gave me tacit approval to photography the Builder when he is on duty. I also want to point out that this problem is not at every Amtrak station either. I had no issues in Vermont at the very busy White River Junction station. The ultimate decision is more with the individual station and the people that are in there. It just happened that this gentleman is also a photographer and rail fan who I respect and he respects me.

I strongly suggest you take the time to read some of the articles on this matter in Trains Magazine that have covered everything from Amtrak's rules to how to conduct yourself in case there is an issue. Do this before you come up with an like boycotting. I doubt that you would have any support from the historical societies either. They are more concerned on having a positive relationship with the carriers than a negative one.

--- On Fri, 11/13/09, Harvey Kahler <harvey.kahler@ att.net> wrote:

From: Harvey Kahler <harvey.kahler@ att.net>
Subject: Re: [CHICAGOTRANSIT] Re: North Coast Hiawatha restart
To: CHICAGOTRANSIT@ yahoogroups. com
Date: Friday, November 13, 2009, 8:19 PM

Point taken.
I'd say organize a boycott by railway historical societies until they relax their rules.

--- On Fri, 11/13/09, c902080 <nicholls@uic. edu> wrote:

From: c902080 <nicholls@uic. edu>
Subject: [CHICAGOTRANSIT] Re: North Coast Hiawatha restart
To: CHICAGOTRANSIT@ yahoogroups. com
Date: Friday, November 13, 2009, 12:56 PM

So Amtrak do not want enthusiasts to take photographs of their trains but their communications officer is asking for help in getting a historical photograph of one of their trains from those same enthusiasts! Seems like a double standard.

--- In CHICAGOTRANSIT@ yahoogroups. com, Larry M <minnman554212000@ ...> wrote:
>
> I had a request from Amtrak's communication officer to send pictures of the long gone North Coast Hiawatha that can be used in Ink, their monthly publication. This story relates to a request by Amtrak to reinstate the North Coast Hiawatha. Hopefully their request can be granted and at the same time we can have a second Chicago to Twin Cities train. Maybe they can make it three times a week west of the Twin Cities as it was prior to the Carter purge in 1979.
>
> Larry
>

#52074

From: Barry Smith <kneesox43@...>
Date: Sat Nov 14, 2009 5:37 pm
Subject: Re: Re: North Coast Hiawatha photos

kneesox43

Online Now

Hi Y'All,

I see what Amtrak's "problem" is! It's simply another bureaucracy where the

"right hand doesn't know what the left hand's doing and vice versa"!

I'm a fourth generation native of "Uncle Sam's Company Town" and I have

spent most of my working life with some in federal service but mostly as a

contractor. The local trolley museum's "leadership" suffers from the same

"affliction"!

Barry "Barri" Smith

From: Harvey Kahler <harvey.kahler@...>
To: CHICAGOTRANSIT@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sat, November 14, 2009 12:09:23 PM
Subject: [CHICAGOTRANSIT] Re: North Coast Hiawatha photos

Fine. Talk with Sen Obrstar.
But why "cooperate" with Amtrak providing materials that were obtained in public access areas under circumstances that are no longer permitted? (This does not include photos taken from other railway property and structures which is a whole different matter.) How can Amtrak condone photos taken contrary to current rules? If it's somehow bad now; wasn't it bad then?
Why should it take samples of your photos either to prove your intentions or to impress others of your skill to be allowed to bend the new rules?
I read the articles and discussions of Amtak's photo policy and am very circumspect with my photography, shooting mostly from public areas now to minimize any encounter. When challenged, I politely provide my identification and explain my reasons.
The trickiest part is finding a place to park since road shoulders are for emergency use only. Stopping or parking is a quick way to get unwanted attention. Then there are the Good Samaritans who stop to ask if you need help.

--- On Fri, 11/13/09, Larry M <minnman554212000@ yahoo.com> wrote:

From: Larry M <minnman554212000@ yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [CHICAGOTRANSIT] Re: North Coast Hiawatha restart
To: CHICAGOTRANSIT@ yahoogroups. com
Date: Friday, November 13, 2009, 9:42 PM

Right, Harvey. That will go straight to the circular file. I may contact Jim Oberstar's office since we are both members of a cycling club in Duluth (foot powered). I have never personally met him but he certainly would have far more influence than a senseless boycott. Right now Amtrak has all they can do to meet their demand on many of their trains. That is one of the reasons they want to add the NCH.

The proper way is to work with and not against Amtrak (or any other organization or company). I found that out today with the agent at MSP who saw my work and gave me tacit approval to photography the Builder when he is on duty. I also want to point out that this problem is not at every Amtrak station either. I had no issues in Vermont at the very busy White River Junction station. The ultimate decision is more with the individual station and the people that are in there. It just happened that this gentleman is also a photographer and rail fan who I respect and he respects me.

I strongly suggest you take the time to read some of the articles on this matter in Trains Magazine that have covered everything from Amtrak's rules to how to conduct yourself in case there is an issue. Do this before you come up with an like boycotting. I doubt that you would have any support from the historical societies either. They are more concerned on having a positive relationship with the carriers than a negative one.

--- On Fri, 11/13/09, Harvey Kahler <harvey.kahler@ att.net> wrote:

From: Harvey Kahler <harvey.kahler@ att.net>
Subject: Re: [CHICAGOTRANSIT] Re: North Coast Hiawatha restart
To: CHICAGOTRANSIT@ yahoogroups. com
Date: Friday, November 13, 2009, 8:19 PM

Point taken.
I'd say organize a boycott by railway historical societies until they relax their rules.

--- On Fri, 11/13/09, c902080 <nicholls@uic. edu> wrote:

From: c902080 <nicholls@uic. edu>
Subject: [CHICAGOTRANSIT] Re: North Coast Hiawatha restart
To: CHICAGOTRANSIT@ yahoogroups. com
Date: Friday, November 13, 2009, 12:56 PM

So Amtrak do not want enthusiasts to take photographs of their trains but their communications officer is asking for help in getting a historical photograph of one of their trains from those same enthusiasts! Seems like a double standard.

--- In CHICAGOTRANSIT@ yahoogroups. com, Larry M <minnman554212000@ ...> wrote:
>
> I had a request from Amtrak's communication officer to send pictures of the long gone North Coast Hiawatha that can be used in Ink, their monthly publication. This story relates to a request by Amtrak to reinstate the North Coast Hiawatha. Hopefully their request can be granted and at the same time we can have a second Chicago to Twin Cities train. Maybe they can make it three times a week west of the Twin Cities as it was prior to the Carter purge in 1979.
>
> Larry
>

#52073

From: Harvey Kahler <harvey.kahler@...>
Date: Sat Nov 14, 2009 5:09 pm
Subject: Re: North Coast Hiawatha photos

hkahler400

Offline

From: Larry M <minnman554212000@...>
Subject: Re: [CHICAGOTRANSIT] Re: North Coast Hiawatha restart
To: CHICAGOTRANSIT@yahoogroups.com
Date: Friday, November 13, 2009, 9:42 PM

Right, Harvey. That will go straight to the circular file. I may contact Jim Oberstar's office since we are both members of a cycling club in Duluth (foot powered). I have never personally met him but he certainly would have far more influence than a senseless boycott. Right now Amtrak has all they can do to meet their demand on many of their trains. That is one of the reasons they want to add the NCH.

The proper way is to work with and not against Amtrak (or any other organization or company). I found that out today with the agent at MSP who saw my work and gave me tacit approval to photography the Builder when he is on duty. I also want to point out that this problem is not at every Amtrak station either. I had no issues in Vermont at the very busy White River Junction station. The ultimate decision is more with the individual station and the people that are in there. It just happened that this gentleman is also a photographer and rail fan who I respect and he respects me.

I strongly suggest you take the time to read some of the articles on this matter in Trains Magazine that have covered everything from Amtrak's rules to how to conduct yourself in case there is an issue. Do this before you come up with an like boycotting. I doubt that you would have any support from the historical societies either. They are more concerned on having a positive relationship with the carriers than a negative one.

--- On Fri, 11/13/09, Harvey Kahler <harvey.kahler@ att.net> wrote:

From: Harvey Kahler <harvey.kahler@ att.net>
Subject: Re: [CHICAGOTRANSIT] Re: North Coast Hiawatha restart
To: CHICAGOTRANSIT@ yahoogroups. com
Date: Friday, November 13, 2009, 8:19 PM

Point taken.
I'd say organize a boycott by railway historical societies until they relax their rules.

--- On Fri, 11/13/09, c902080 <nicholls@uic. edu> wrote:

From: c902080 <nicholls@uic. edu>
Subject: [CHICAGOTRANSIT] Re: North Coast Hiawatha restart
To: CHICAGOTRANSIT@ yahoogroups. com
Date: Friday, November 13, 2009, 12:56 PM

So Amtrak do not want enthusiasts to take photographs of their trains but their communications officer is asking for help in getting a historical photograph of one of their trains from those same enthusiasts! Seems like a double standard.

--- In CHICAGOTRANSIT@ yahoogroups. com, Larry M <minnman554212000@ ...> wrote:
>
> I had a request from Amtrak's communication officer to send pictures of the long gone North Coast Hiawatha that can be used in Ink, their monthly publication. This story relates to a request by Amtrak to reinstate the North Coast Hiawatha. Hopefully their request can be granted and at the same time we can have a second Chicago to Twin Cities train. Maybe they can make it three times a week west of the Twin Cities as it was prior to the Carter purge in 1979.
>
> Larry
>

#52072

From: Dennis McClendon <dennismcclendon@...>
Date: Sat Nov 14, 2009 3:37 pm
Subject: Amtrak photo policy

southlooplis...

Offline

Larry M wrote:

> The pictures in question were not of the "Hiawatha" as we know it
> today but the "North Coast Hiawatha" in 1973 and 1974 long before
> any photographic ban.  I was also dealing with Amtrak's corporate
> office regarding their request; not a local station.  I have been
> published by Amtrak as well in the past along with the Northwestern
> Historical Society in their magazine and others.
>
> I had no issues with the "Vermonter" at White River Jct, VT and
> have made arrangements to take a pictures of the "Empire Builder"
> at the MSP station on the days that this agent works.  My objective
> is not just the train but a station scene that Amtrak can choose to
> use for their own purposes.  Any number of my MBTA photos show not
> just the train but stops or stations to show more than just a light
> rail car, subway car or commuter train. A photograph should tell a
> story and having people in the picture enhances that.   At the
> present time I have been invited by the archivist/librarian to
> submit a dozen or so of my work to be displayed in the library on
> the walls as well as a cd with my MBTA pictures for use as
> reference by anyone in their headquarters.  The MBTA pictures are
> at www.umcycling.com/mbta1.html for now but will be moved to their
> own website along with the still unposted 2009 photos when I get
> around to doing so.

Good point.  As long as YOU have a special exemption at one station
on some days or managed to evade detection on one occurrence, what
possible reason would there be to poke fun at an absurd policy?

:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
Dennis McClendon
dennismcclendon@...

#52071

From: Larry M <minnman554212000@...>
Date: Sat Nov 14, 2009 5:12 am
Subject: Re: North Coast Hiawatha restart

minnman55421...

Offline

Dennis,

The pictures in question were not of the "Hiawatha" as we know it today but the "North Coast Hiawatha" in 1973 and 1974 long before any photographic ban. I was also dealing with Amtrak's corporate office regarding their request; not a local station. I have been published by Amtrak as well in the past along with the Northwestern Historical Society in their magazine and others.

I had no issues with the "Vermonter" at White River Jct, VT and have made arrangements to take a pictures of the "Empire Builder" at the MSP station on the days that this agent works. My objective is not just the train but a station scene that Amtrak can choose to use for their own purposes. Any number of my MBTA photos show not just the train but stops or stations to show more than just a light rail car, subway car or commuter train. A photograph should tell a story and having people in the picture enhances that. At the present time I have been invited by the archivist/librarian to submit a dozen or so of my work to be displayed in the library on the walls as well as a cd with my MBTA pictures for use as reference by anyone in their headquarters. The MBTA pictures are at www.umcycling.com/mbta1.html for now but will be moved to their own website along with the still unposted 2009 photos when I get around to doing so.

Larry

--- On Fri, 11/13/09, Dennis McClendon <dennismcclendon@...> wrote:

From: Dennis McClendon <dennismcclendon@...>
Subject: Re: [CHICAGOTRANSIT] North Coast Hiawatha restart
To: CHICAGOTRANSIT@yahoogroups.com
Date: Friday, November 13, 2009, 10:55 PM

Larry M wrote:

> I had a request from Amtrak's communication officer to send
> pictures of the long gone North Coast Hiawatha that can be used in
> Ink, their monthly publication.

I think you should respond that since you were not ticketed on the
Hiawatha that day, you were forbidden to take any photographs.

:::::::::::: ::::::::: ::::::::: :::::::
Dennis McClendon
dennismcclendon@ gmail.com

#52070

From: Dennis McClendon <dennismcclendon@...>
Date: Sat Nov 14, 2009 4:55 am
Subject: Re: North Coast Hiawatha restart

southlooplis...

Offline

Larry M wrote:

> I had a request from Amtrak's communication officer to send
> pictures of the long gone North Coast Hiawatha that can be used in
> Ink, their monthly publication.

I think you should respond that since you were not ticketed on the
Hiawatha that day, you were forbidden to take any photographs.

:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
Dennis McClendon
dennismcclendon@...

#52069

From: Larry M <minnman554212000@...>
Date: Sat Nov 14, 2009 3:42 am
Subject: Re: Re: North Coast Hiawatha restart

minnman55421...

Offline

Right, Harvey. That will go straight to the circular file. I may contact Jim Oberstar's office since we are both members of a cycling club in Duluth (foot powered). I have never personally met him but he certainly would have far more influence than a senseless boycott. Right now Amtrak has all they can do to meet their demand on many of their trains. That is one of the reasons they want to add the NCH.

The proper way is to work with and not against Amtrak (or any other organization or company). I found that out today with the agent at MSP who saw my work and gave me tacit approval to photography the Builder when he is on duty. I also want to point out that this problem is not at every Amtrak station either. I had no issues in Vermont at the very busy White River Junction station. The ultimate decision is more with the individual station and the people that are in there. It just happened that this gentleman is also a photographer and rail fan who I respect and he respects me.

I strongly suggest you take the time to read some of the articles on this matter in Trains Magazine that have covered everything from Amtrak's rules to how to conduct yourself in case there is an issue. Do this before you come up with an like boycotting. I doubt that you would have any support from the historical societies either. They are more concerned on having a positive relationship with the carriers than a negative one.

--- On Fri, 11/13/09, Harvey Kahler <harvey.kahler@...> wrote:

From: Harvey Kahler <harvey.kahler@...>
Subject: Re: [CHICAGOTRANSIT] Re: North Coast Hiawatha restart
To: CHICAGOTRANSIT@yahoogroups.com
Date: Friday, November 13, 2009, 8:19 PM

Point taken.
I'd say organize a boycott by railway historical societies until they relax their rules.

--- On Fri, 11/13/09, c902080 <nicholls@uic. edu> wrote:

From: c902080 <nicholls@uic. edu>
Subject: [CHICAGOTRANSIT] Re: North Coast Hiawatha restart
To: CHICAGOTRANSIT@ yahoogroups. com
Date: Friday, November 13, 2009, 12:56 PM

So Amtrak do not want enthusiasts to take photographs of their trains but their communications officer is asking for help in getting a historical photograph of one of their trains from those same enthusiasts! Seems like a double standard.

--- In CHICAGOTRANSIT@ yahoogroups. com, Larry M <minnman554212000@ ...> wrote:
>
> I had a request from Amtrak's communication officer to send pictures of the long gone North Coast Hiawatha that can be used in Ink, their monthly publication. This story relates to a request by Amtrak to reinstate the North Coast Hiawatha. Hopefully their request can be granted and at the same time we can have a second Chicago to Twin Cities train. Maybe they can make it three times a week west of the Twin Cities as it was prior to the Carter purge in 1979.
>
> Larry
>

#52068

From: Harvey Kahler <harvey.kahler@...>
Date: Sat Nov 14, 2009 2:19 am
Subject: Re: Re: North Coast Hiawatha restart

hkahler400

Offline

Point taken.
I'd say organize a boycott by railway historical societies until they relax their rules.

--- On Fri, 11/13/09, c902080 <nicholls@...> wrote:

From: c902080 <nicholls@...>
Subject: [CHICAGOTRANSIT] Re: North Coast Hiawatha restart
To: CHICAGOTRANSIT@yahoogroups.com
Date: Friday, November 13, 2009, 12:56 PM

So Amtrak do not want enthusiasts to take photographs of their trains but their communications officer is asking for help in getting a historical photograph of one of their trains from those same enthusiasts! Seems like a double standard.

--- In CHICAGOTRANSIT@ yahoogroups. com, Larry M <minnman554212000@ ...> wrote:
>
> I had a request from Amtrak's communication officer to send pictures of the long gone North Coast Hiawatha that can be used in Ink, their monthly publication. This story relates to a request by Amtrak to reinstate the North Coast Hiawatha. Hopefully their request can be granted and at the same time we can have a second Chicago to Twin Cities train. Maybe they can make it three times a week west of the Twin Cities as it was prior to the Carter purge in 1979.
>
> Larry
>