I found the reactions to my post both amusing and angering. Amusing because you
people totally missed the point of my email. Angering because you people seem to
be saying that Toronto is the center of the known universe and you seem to
consider me stupid, which, frankly, is insulting. I know VIA and its mandate. I
know its equipment and GO`s equipment. I tried to chose my words with care.
 
So please CAREFULLY reread my post and try to THINK about what I`m really
saying. And in future please try not to jump to erroneous conclusions.
 
Thank you.
 
Peter D. A. Warwick














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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

----- Original Message -----
From: "james armstrong" <jarmstrong19@...>
To: <Canadian-Passenger-Rail@yahoogroups.com>
Cc: <Canadian-Passenger-Rail@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, June 30, 2009 08:51
Subject: Re: [CanPassRail] Re: A good start for the first Niagara Go
Train...


> To Paul Duncan:  I amvery curious to know why you call Amtrak bythe
insulting name Amtrash? The wife  and I have taken this train a
> number of times and found itenjoyable. We bothhave a number of complaints
and here they are: this train should have a diner, the lenghth
> of the journey warrants it and secondly this routeshould have a sleeper
service.  But theonly waythis is going to come about is for the travelling
> public to write to Amtrak and complain about the lack of these two
services. The new administration could bring these two services into
> play.  James  Windsor

Sleeper service? Well my schedule is from 1990 but I don't know how
different it would be. It's approximately a 12 hour trip from Toronto (9:35
am) to New York City (9:33 pm) so I suppose it could be boring as hell, but
not worth
anyone's while for a sleeper trip.  From what I gather, in my botched up
arrangements for taking a vacation in Miami Beach one frosty winter, I'd
transfer to another train in NYC at that time where there would be sleeping
accommodations, and the train would just..... wait.  Until it departs around
2 am or so.  But the silly fools booked me on an alternate route, I told
them that it wasn't what I wanted and had to cancel. They couldn't fix the
mistake so the best they could do was give me a refund (I use using American
Express at the time so I was assured of a total refund).  The motel I booked
wasn't as forgiving and had to appeal to AE to get my money back (I called
them to cancel - they said they did, but apparently lied about it.)
Besides, new "services" means......? All together now: HIGHER FARES!

----- Original Message -----
From: "jamesdfeenstra" <james.feenstra@...>
To: <Canadian-Passenger-Rail@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, June 30, 2009 09:19
Subject: [CanPassRail] Re: GO Equipment on Weekends


>The problem is the time that it takes to board everyone through one set of
doors. For the sake of argument it takes two seconds for one person to board
through the doors. If you have 100 people trying to board through one set of
doors, it's going to take >3:20 to get everyone on the train. But if you
spread those 100 people out evenly along the whole train with 20 doors, you
have 5 people boarding at every door an it 10 quick seconds the train is
loaded and can be on its way.
>
>Now if a train left Union, traveling westbound at 50 mph, and another
train...

Does not compute. You'd have to consider the air pressure, wind resistance,
inclination the train has to endure, if any, any chance of rain, etc. Your
answer would change from day to day. Quit while you're ahead.

----- Original Message -----
From: "www.NiagaraRails.com - Paul Duncan" <loco@...>
To: <Canadian-Passenger-Rail@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, June 30, 2009 09:17
[CanPassRail] Re: A good start for the first Niagara Go Train...


> James....
>
> Nothing against the railroad at all,
>
> Same reason some call CN - Crash National.....
>
> Ever seen the list of names for each letter of a railroads letter?
>
> For example....

TH&B was Tits Hooters & Boobs, so I've been told.
OS&H was Oats Straw & Hay, so I've been told (Ontario, Simcoe & Huron, the
first railroad to reach Barrie)
And of course everyone's favourite:
TTC - Take The Car

I find the last one a hoot even though I *LIKE* the TTC and consider it
highly superior to my local Barrie Transit.

Toronto, Toronto, it's a wonderful town
The tax is up and the service is down
The pople ride in a hole underground

etc etc.

A delayed thank you for your help. It took a while to plan our vacation.

We shall be in Montreal July 21 &22. I shall be able to visit Exporail
on one of those days.

Thanks, again.

Charles Varnes

Jim wrote:
> Charles,
>
> You'll find Montreal is as open on Sunday as any other day, especially
anything related to tourism;  the only difference is that closing time for
shopping is 6 pm, not 9 pm.  The 'Quiet Revolution' liberated Quebec from any
former 'Sunday is special' thinking.... Quebec is now the least religious area
in North America.
>
> Exporail is sort of accessible by public transport - if you are truly lucky,
you'll be in Montreal on one of the three days each summer at AMT, the commuter
rail service, runs a special train from downtown to the museum for visitors to
the museum.  (Normally service on the Delson/Candiac line is all inbound
mornings, outbound afternoons, so not useful to the museum visitor.)  Otherwise,
you're on one of the nine buses each weekday, each way, that Exporail lists on
their website here:
> http://www.exporail.org/public/en/1_montezabord/2_2_acces.asp
>
> I'm sure others, especially from Montreal, will weigh on your question too.
>
> Jim
> Ottawa
>
> --- In Canadian-Passenger-Rail@yahoogroups.com, Charles Varnes <ocvarnes@...>
wrote:
>
>> We are planning our summer trip which includes travel in Canada.
>>
>> We are booked from Boston to Montreal on a cruise ship, with a port call
>> in Quebec.  The ship will arrive  in Montreal on a Saturday. Our plan is
>> to take VIA back to Quebec that day and spend Sunday there.
>>
>> We are wondering how open the City is on Sundays.
>>
>> On Monday we plan to take VIA to Montreal and spend Tuesday and
>> Wednesday there. During our visit I want to visit Old Montreal and the
>> Montreal Museum of Archaeology and History.
>>
>> I would like to visit  Exporail, the Canadian Railway Museum, in
>> St-Constant. Can it be reached by public transportation from Montreal?
>>
>>  From Montreal, we plan to continue on to Toronto for a day, and then
>> take the Canadian to Vancouver.
>>
>> The reason for our somewhat unusual vacation schedule is that we had an
>> excellent trip to Canada a few years ago, and we wish to see a few
>> things we missed on that trip.
>>
>> On our previous vacation we traveled from Vancouver to Toronto aboard
>> the Canadian, then to Ottawa, Montreal, and Quebec aboard VIA 1 trains.
>> Our return was Quebec to Toronto aboard the overnight REN train. Upon
>> arrival in Toronto  we  boarded the Canadian for our return to Vancouver.
>>
>> Charles Varnes
>> San Dimas, CA 91773
>> USA
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> For help, send an email to Canadian-Passenger-Rail-help@...!
Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>

In In regards to all the comments about the Maple Leaf  why walk away from an
intolerable situation? Tell Amtrak what you have experienced. In
fact go one further and write a letter to the Secretary in the Obama
administration and tell him about your experiences  I will say that I have been
on this train a number of times and always enjoyed it. I would take it to New
York again BUT I have had many intolerable terrible experiences
with U.S. Customs and Immigration : I find them arrogant,rude etc, etc and THIS
is something which I cannot change.  James  Windsor
   ----- Original Message -----
   From: drevil0208
   To: Canadian-Passenger-Rail@yahoogroups.com
   Sent: Tuesday, June 30, 2009 5:25 PM
   Subject: [CanPassRail] Re: A good start for the first Niagara Go Train...





   I took the Maple Leaf about 3 years ago... never again. I agree with what
everyone else has said. The Amtrak cars are outdated, often dirty, and not
worthy of a 12 hour (or more!) journey. These cars are fine for a 2 or 3 hour
trip, but not long distance. The food is a joke. IMO, LRC cars are vastly
superior to Amfleet... oh, did I forget the teeny windows as well?

   --- In Canadian-Passenger-Rail@yahoogroups.com, gopullman@... wrote:
   >
   >
   >
   > In a message dated 6/30/2009 8:52:56 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
   > jarmstrong19@... writes:
   >
   > this train should have a diner, the lenghth
   > of the journey warrants it and secondly this routeshould have a sleeper
   > service.
   > =================================================================
   > I assume you're talking about the Maple Leaf, since there would be
   > absolutely no call for a sleeper between Toronto and Niagara Falls.
   >
   > The Maple Leaf is a disgrace. It is 12 or 13 hours long end to end, and
   > Amtrak doesn't offer any food service above a snack bar. To its credit,
Amtrak
   > at least added business class, and supposedly runs coaches less cramped
   > than the 84 seat Amfleet cars that it used to run.
   >
   > But there is still no connection to Washington DC, at least not
   > north/westbound. South/eastbound I believe there is one, but it arrives in
Washington
   > after Metro has shut down for the night.
   >
   > An overnight train would be a vast improvement, although border issues
   > would probably get the passengers up too early.
   >
   > I haven't researched the schedules, but I believe the Maple Leaf is the
   > longest Amtrak run without a dining car.
   >
   > And I've always said that the composer who penned the line "all the
   > livelong day" had something like the Maple Leaf in mind.
   >
   > Tom Hoffman
   > Pearisburg VA
   > **************A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy
   > steps!
   >
(http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1222377075x1201454393/aol?redir=http://\
www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx?sc=668072&hmpgID=62&bcd=
   > JunestepsfooterNO62)
   >
   >
   > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
   >





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I have added the only available footage of the Bombardier JetTrain to
the HIGH SPEED RAIL CANADA WEBSITE <http://www.highspeedrail.ca>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

To Ugly Sean: I disagree with you on your comment that the Maple Leaf route is
not worthy of sleeper services. I see it as a terrific candidate and to make a
comparison I do not know time wise how long the journey is from Cornwall England
to Waterloo Int. but a sleeper service hasbeen on that route for some time.
I travelled on it some yearsago and enjoyed it very much. I have long been a fan
of sleeper trains (overnight or longer) and now Canada  sadly does not qualify.
The Ocean is in the same category as the Capital Limited give or take a few
hours wheras Scotrail comes closer to my version of 'overnighter' If I can get
my hands on an Amtrak schedule I can get a better knowledge of theirsleeper
services  James  Windsor
   ----- Original Message -----
   From: Ugly Sean
   To: Canadian-Passenger-Rail@yahoogroups.com
   Sent: Tuesday, June 30, 2009 6:33 PM
   Subject: Re: [CanPassRail] Re: A good start for the first Niagara Go Train...






   ----- Original Message -----
   From: "james armstrong" <jarmstrong19@...>
   To: <Canadian-Passenger-Rail@yahoogroups.com>
   Cc: <Canadian-Passenger-Rail@yahoogroups.com>
   Sent: Tuesday, June 30, 2009 08:51
   Subject: Re: [CanPassRail] Re: A good start for the first Niagara Go
   Train...

   > To Paul Duncan: I amvery curious to know why you call Amtrak bythe
   insulting name Amtrash? The wife and I have taken this train a
   > number of times and found itenjoyable. We bothhave a number of complaints
   and here they are: this train should have a diner, the lenghth
   > of the journey warrants it and secondly this routeshould have a sleeper
   service. But theonly waythis is going to come about is for the travelling
   > public to write to Amtrak and complain about the lack of these two
   services. The new administration could bring these two services into
   > play. James Windsor

   Sleeper service? Well my schedule is from 1990 but I don't know how
   different it would be. It's approximately a 12 hour trip from Toronto (9:35
   am) to New York City (9:33 pm) so I suppose it could be boring as hell, but
   not worth
   anyone's while for a sleeper trip. From what I gather, in my botched up
   arrangements for taking a vacation in Miami Beach one frosty winter, I'd
   transfer to another train in NYC at that time where there would be sleeping
   accommodations, and the train would just..... wait. Until it departs around
   2 am or so. But the silly fools booked me on an alternate route, I told
   them that it wasn't what I wanted and had to cancel. They couldn't fix the
   mistake so the best they could do was give me a refund (I use using American
   Express at the time so I was assured of a total refund). The motel I booked
   wasn't as forgiving and had to appeal to AE to get my money back (I called
   them to cancel - they said they did, but apparently lied about it.)
   Besides, new "services" means......? All together now: HIGHER FARES!





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Canada’s Bombardier, which is the third largest civilian aircraft maker and
global leader in rail transportation, Tuesday announced the world’s biggest
sale of rail streetcars.

<
http://www.latestnewsonline.net/business/bombardier-bags-worlds-biggest-streetca\
r-deal/20751.html
>

--
Walter Pfefferle
Ingersoll Ontario
Web site http://geocities.com/railpast/
Past photos http://railfan.thegrebs.com/Railpast-Photos
Latest Photos Online http://daytrips.50webs.com/index.htm


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

In a message dated 7/1/2009 8:59:13 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
jarmstrong19@... writes:

To  Ugly Sean: I disagree with you on your comment that the Maple Leaf
route is  not worthy of sleeper services.
===============================================================
Although some people do get sleeping car accommodations for daytime trips,
I assume you're suggesting an overnight train like the old Ontarian on
NYC/TH&B/CP. Of course a new Ontarian would run through Niagara Falls,  like
the Maple Leaf does.

Tom Hoffman
Pearisburg VA
**************Dell Laptops: Huge Savings on Popular Laptops – Deals
starting at
$399(http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1222883570x1201497211/aol?redir=htt\
p:%2F%2Faltfarm.mediaplex.com%2Fad%2Fck%2F12309%2D81939%2D1629%2D0)


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

VIA #1 Arrival Vancouver Pacific Central Station Wednesday July 1

6446 Vcvr Assigned Unit
6406 Mtrl Assigned Unit (Spider Man)
8616 Baggage
8142 Ex Amtrak
8101
8512 Skyline
8410 Frontenac (Diner "A")
8509 Skyline
8335 Mackenzie Manor
8333 Lorne Manor
8313 Cabot Manor
8307 Blair Manor
8503 Skyline
8407 Emerald (Diner "B")
8337 Osler Manor
8303 Amherst Manor
8316 Christie Manor
8718 Yoho Park


2 Units, 16 Cars


VIA #2 Departure Vancouver Pacific Central Station Tuesday June 30

6407 Mtrl Assigned Unit
6411 Mtrl Assigned Unit (Operation Lifesaver)
8609 Baggage
8117
8107
8506 Skyline
8401 Acadian (Diner "A")
8511 Skyline
8315 Carleton Manor
8340 Stuart Manor
8338 Rogers Manor
8342 Wolfe Manor
8221 Chateau Radisson
8505 Skyline
8409 Fairholme (Diner "B")
8326 Franklin Manor
8329 Hearne Manor
8339 Sherwood Manor
8717 Waterton Park

2 Units, 17 Cars


VIA #1 Departure Toronto Union Station Tuesday June 30

6438 Vcvr Assigned Unit
6439 Vcvr Assigned Unit
8612 Baggage
8129
8131 Ex Amtrak
8515 Skyline
8412 Kent (Diner "A")
8502 Skyline
8320 Douglas Manor
8331 Jarvis Manor
8330 Hunter Manor
8314 Cameron Manor
8504 Skyline
8402 Alexandra (Diner "B")
8305 Bayfield Manor
8302 Allan Manor
8309 Brant Manor
8707 Kokanee Park

2 Units, 16 Cars

Does anyone know if VIA has a new policy on power assignments for the Canadian?

In the Edmonton - Jasper area, three out of every four trains have had Spiderman
units (6401, 6406 or 6434, all trailing) during the second half of June, a big
increase over previous reports.

Jim

Jim Wright
Kennebunkport, Maine

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

To Tom Hoffman: Tom, I do not know anything about the old Ontarian but what I am
thinking is a train which leaves Torontoand New York  respectively
around say nine in the evening and reaches its destination aboutseven or eight
in the morning.  Connections all round would be essential in order for
the travelling public to be satisfied with the service. I even see a glimmer of
hope thatthis could come about with the new President. The big problem would
probably be with Canada customs . Yes I am thinking about the ongoing problem in
Vancouver.  James  Windsor
   ----- Original Message -----
   From: gopullman@...
   To: Canadian-Passenger-Rail@yahoogroups.com
   Sent: Wednesday, July 01, 2009 4:19 PM
   Subject: Re: [CanPassRail] Re: A good start for the first Niagara Go Train...







   In a message dated 7/1/2009 8:59:13 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
   jarmstrong19@... writes:

   To Ugly Sean: I disagree with you on your comment that the Maple Leaf
   route is not worthy of sleeper services.
   ===============================================================
   Although some people do get sleeping car accommodations for daytime trips,
   I assume you're suggesting an overnight train like the old Ontarian on
   NYC/TH&B/CP. Of course a new Ontarian would run through Niagara Falls, like
   the Maple Leaf does.

   Tom Hoffman
   Pearisburg VA
   **************Dell Laptops: Huge Savings on Popular Laptops – Deals
   starting at
  
$399(http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1222883570x1201497211/aol?redir=htt\
p:%2F%2Faltfarm.mediaplex.com%2Fad%2Fck%2F12309%2D81939%2D1629%2D0)

   [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

James Armstrong wrote:
>>> I disagree with you on your comment that the Maple Leaf
>>> route is not worthy of sleeper services.

Tom Hoffman wrote:
>> Although some people do get sleeping car accommodations for
>> daytime trips, I assume you're suggesting an overnight train
>> like the old Ontarian on NYC/TH&B/CP.  Of course a new Ontarian
>> would run through Niagara Falls, like the Maple Leaf does.

James:
> I do not know anything about the old Ontarian

It ran between Hamilton and Buffalo via Smithville, Fenwick,
Welland and Fort Erie, instead of via Grimsby, St. Catharines
and Niagara Falls.

Here's a condensed schedule from April 1970:

18:30 dep New York (Grand Central) arr 10:10
02:35 arr Buffalo (Central) ______ dep 02:30
04:35 dep Buffalo ________________ arr 00:30
08:00 arr Toronto ________________ dep 20:50

The train was cancelled in fall 1970 and replaced by a daytime
Toronto - Buffalo RDC that connected with a Buffalo - New York
day train.  Here's the October 1976 schedule:

08:30 dep New York (Grand Central) arr 21:50
17:00 arr Buffalo ________________ dep 13:00
17:25 dep Buffalo ________________ arr 11:55
20:35 arr Toronto ________________ dep 08:40


There was a weekend-only Toronto - New York night train for a
while in the mid-1990s.  It ran attached to the regular daytime
VIA train between Toronto and Niagara Falls.

The April 1994 VIA timetable shows this train leaving New York
on Friday and Saturday evenings, and leaving Toronto on Saturday
and Sunday afternoons.  I was living in Montreal at the time,
and never even saw this train, but I seem to recall hearing that
it really only ran once a week.  Here's a condensed schedule:

22:30 dep New York (Penn) _________ arr 07:45
07:00 arr Niagara Falls, ON (CN) __ dep 23:10
08:30 dep Niagara Falls, ON _______ arr 19:43
10:21 arr Toronto _________________ dep 17:45

The October 1994 timetable shows it running once a week (leaving
New York Friday evening and Toronto Sunday afternoon).  The long
Niagara Falls layover had been shortened:

21:55 dep New York (Penn) _________ arr 06:55
07:15 arr Niagara Falls, ON (CN) __ dep 20:00
08:30 dep Niagara Falls, ON _______ arr 19:41
10:21 arr Toronto _________________ dep 17:45

The schedule in the April 1995 timetable was the same as
October 1994.  In the October 1995 timetable, the train had
disappeared.  (I seem to recall that the start and end dates
did not coincide with the issuance of new timetables.)

What makes its advocates believe that a Toronto - New York
night train would be more successful than the Montreal -
Toronto night train that was cancelled in 2005?

Tom Box  <tbox@...>  Toronto, ON, Canada

I wrote:
>> VIA's own web pages for station information use Google maps,
>> but these pages have their problems. Consider, for example,
>>
<http://www.viarail.ca/cgi-bin/genericXSLT?xml=TRNJ.xml&xsl=en_station.xsl>
>> or <URL:http://tinyurl.com/muwyej> .
>>
>> [description of errors snipped; see message #55111]
>>
>> I've pointed out this error to VIA.  We'll see if and when
>> the page is corrected.

Mark Walton wrote:
> Looks like it has been corrected now.

Well, the map is now centered on the true location of the
Trenton Junction station, instead of the crossing of Front St.
and the Canadian Pacific line.  That's a step in the right
direction, but this page still says that the address of the
station is on Front St., which is wrong, and that it's 2.5 km
south of the 401 on Highway 33, which is also wrong.

The French version of this page,
<http://www.viarail.ca/cgi-bin/genericXSLT?xml=TRNJ.xml&xsl=fr_gare.xsl>
has a broken link where the map is supposed to appear.

The web pages
<http://www.viarail.ca/en/stations/ontario/trenton-junction/>
<http://www.viarail.ca/fr/gares/ontario/trenton-junction/>
which provide similar information to the above pages, still
have their maps centered on the Front St./CPR crossing, with
the true station location not appearing at all unless to know
to drag the map to the northwest.  They also have the wrong
address and directions.

Unfortunately, this is all too typical of VIA's web site
maintenance, in my experience.  When I point out several errors
to VIA, as I did in this case, very frequently one problem gets
fixed and the others get ignored.

In the same way, when I pointed out that the "Information about
this trip" pop-ups in ReserVIA had incorrect information for
food service on the Niagara Falls - Toronto and Kingston -
Toronto trains, the Niagara pop-up was changed from one incorrect
statement to a different, but also incorrect statement.  The
Kingston - Toronto pop-up was not changed, so it too is still
incorrect.

Tom Box  <tbox@...>  Toronto, ON, Canada

Former VIA 1099 Bedford 1954 PS Sleeper Buffet Observation still in blue
colours, complete with un-patched VIA decaling! Lots of red on the body, either
rust or a bad coat of primer perhaps. The corridor is welded shut, "DO NOT
COUPLE TO TOP SHELF COUPLERS" & "DO NOT HUMP" decals added along with a RPCX
1099 as the reporting mark.

DRCX 5428 stainless steel coach, also with VIA markings, aside from one welded
window appears in good shape.

Now why does a US museum display Canadian cars right next to an ATSF 4-8-4? By
that logic there should be a DRGW SD40-2T at the Saskatoon museum.

Roman Litarchuk, Saskatoon, SK
My train photography: http://tinyurl.com/Railfan-Roman
Canadian Rail News: http://tinyurl.com/CND-CRO

Jim FYI "The Canadian" has had a lot of Strange Power Assignments. A lot of
the Vancouver Assigned Units are working Corridor Runs out East, & a Lot of
Montreal Units are working "The Canadian". Example being 6411 (Operation
Lifesaver) made it's way out here to Vancouver for the 1st time in over a
year, & a half. 6414 (Lotto Quebec) made it's 1st Trip out here as well in
some years. I'm helping Marc Chounard (Hope the spelling is correct) fill
his database on VIA Locomotives, & Rolling Stock. Visit
http://www.myrailfan.com/tables/list_F40.aspx & you will see how he has
started to fill out some Units on The Canadian, & also some of the F40
History.

Terry
Vancouver

> Does anyone know if VIA has a new policy on power assignments for the
> Canadian?
>
> In the Edmonton - Jasper area, three out of every four trains have had
> Spiderman units (6401, 6406 or 6434, all trailing) during the second half
> of June, a big increase over previous reports.
>
> Jim
>
> Jim Wright
> Kennebunkport, Maine

Didn't the TH&B run through Fort Erie and cross into the USA at Buffalo, and not
Niagara Falls?

--- In Canadian-Passenger-Rail@yahoogroups.com, "james armstrong"
<jarmstrong19@...> wrote:
>
> To Tom Hoffman: Tom, I do not know anything about the old Ontarian but what I
am thinking is a train which leaves Torontoand New York  respectively
> around say nine in the evening and reaches its destination aboutseven or eight
in the morning.  Connections all round would be essential in order for
> the travelling public to be satisfied with the service. I even see a glimmer
of hope thatthis could come about with the new President. The big problem would
> probably be with Canada customs . Yes I am thinking about the ongoing problem
in Vancouver.  James  Windsor
>   ----- Original Message -----
>   From: gopullman@...
>   To: Canadian-Passenger-Rail@yahoogroups.com
>   Sent: Wednesday, July 01, 2009 4:19 PM
>   Subject: Re: [CanPassRail] Re: A good start for the first Niagara Go
Train...
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>   In a message dated 7/1/2009 8:59:13 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
>   jarmstrong19@... writes:
>
>   To Ugly Sean: I disagree with you on your comment that the Maple Leaf
>   route is not worthy of sleeper services.
>   ===============================================================
>   Although some people do get sleeping car accommodations for daytime trips,
>   I assume you're suggesting an overnight train like the old Ontarian on
>   NYC/TH&B/CP. Of course a new Ontarian would run through Niagara Falls, like
>   the Maple Leaf does.
>
>   Tom Hoffman
>   Pearisburg VA
>   **************Dell Laptops: Huge Savings on Popular Laptops â€" Deals
>   starting at
>  
$399(http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1222883570x1201497211/aol?redir=htt\
p:%2F%2Faltfarm.mediaplex.com%2Fad%2Fck%2F12309%2D81939%2D1629%2D0)
>
>   [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Technically the TH&B operated between Welland, Hamilton, Hamilton Junction,
Brantford and Waterford. Toronto - Buffalo service operated via CN from Toronto
to Hamilton Junction under CP, which had running rights, TH&B from Hamilton
Junction to Welland and NYC from Welland to Buffalo via Fort Erie. This was the
line that lasted with passenger service until April, 1981. I was on the last
run.
 
However, passenger service used to be operated over the NYC between Welland and
Niagara Falls, NY. I have a CP Folder B timetable from April 27, 1958 to October
25, 1958. It showed two trains a day between Welland and Niagara Falls, NY and
three trains a day between Toronto and Buffalo. I also have a CP Folder A
timetable from October 26, 1958 to April 25, 1959. The two Welland to Niagara
Falls trains had been cut.
 
Peter D. A. Warwick














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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Roman,

On 2-Jul-09, at 1:09 AM, Roman Litarchuk wrote:

> Now why does a US museum display Canadian cars right next to an ATSF
> 4-8-4? By that logic there should be a DRGW SD40-2T at the Saskatoon
> museum.

You raise a good point about this...

The California State Railroad Museum put a Canadian National sleeper
on display (this is the one which rocks back and forth, simulating
what the motion would be back in the old days) and hasn't repainted it
to an American paint scheme.  I asked the interpreter on-board the car
why they were using a Canadian car, and they replied that when the
museum was being built or the collection gathered that there weren't
many American cars left that represented that sort of scheme.
Canadian roads tended to keep the older stock running a lot longer
than the American roads did.  To wit, take a look at VIA's Canadian.
1950's era rolling stock still in use, though I will grant the fact
they've been thoroughly rebuilt, but they're still running in almost
as-built configurations.

Take a look south of the border and you'll find nothing but 80's era
designs for the Amtrak fleets, and while a good deal of the cars from
the California Zephyr still exist, they're also still somewhat in
service.  All the other carbon steel cars have likely been scrapped,
and a lot earlier than the Canadian carbon steel cars.

Jon

Peter Warwick wrote:
> Toronto - Buffalo service operated via CN from Toronto to
> Hamilton Junction under CP, which had running rights, TH&B
> from Hamilton Junction to Welland

Just a minor detail, but I believe the ownership was Canadian
Pacific from Hamilton Junction to the connection near Main and
Dundurn Streets in Hamilton, then Toronto, Hamilton & Buffalo
from Main and Dundurn to Welland.

> and NYC from Welland to Buffalo via Fort Erie.

Tom Box  <tbox@...>  Toronto, ON, Canada

Not according to Norman Helm's  In The Shadow Of Giants. The connection was
built by the Th&B and remained TH&B until its formal merger with CP Rail.
 
Peter D. A. Warwick

--- On Thu, 7/2/09, Tom Box <tbox@...> wrote:


From: Tom Box <tbox@...>
Subject: [CanPassRail] Re: TH&B
To: "Canadian Passenger Rail" <Canadian-Passenger-Rail@yahoogroups.com>
Received: Thursday, July 2, 2009, 12:22 PM








Peter Warwick wrote:
> Toronto - Buffalo service operated via CN from Toronto to
> Hamilton Junction under CP, which had running rights, TH&B
> from Hamilton Junction to Welland

Just a minor detail, but I believe the ownership was Canadian
Pacific from Hamilton Junction to the connection near Main and
Dundurn Streets in Hamilton, then Toronto, Hamilton & Buffalo
from Main and Dundurn to Welland.

> and NYC from Welland to Buffalo via Fort Erie.

Tom Box <tbox@...> Toronto, ON, Canada

















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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On 2-Jul-09, at 1:39 PM, Canadian-Passenger-Rail@yahoogroups.com wrote:

>
> 4a.Re: A good start for the first Niagara Go Train...Posted by: "Tom
> Box" tbox@...   boxthomWed Jul 1, 2009 7:35 pm (PDT)
>
>
>
> What makes its advocates believe that a Toronto - New York
> night train would be more successful than the Montreal -
> Toronto night train that was cancelled in 2005?
>

The current Maple Leaf trip between Toronto and New York is a 13-hour
ordeal, in good measure because of the equipment that Amtrak uses that
really wasn’t designed for trips of that length. Even though I am a
railfan and have occasionally gone far out of my way to ride a train
instead of other forms of transportation, in my golden years I can no
longer deal with being squeezed into an Amcoach seat for that length
of time and prefer to fly Porter. IMO, an overnight trip with sleepers
and a lounge car would make this train trip much more palatable.

Toronto-Montreal is a 5-hour train ride or drive, depending on
traffic, and I can see why an overnight train (costing $250 or
thereabouts) was a hard sell.

However, I consider it extremely unlikely that such a train will ever
be reinstated on this route, mostly for political reasons having to do
with our ever tightening border, that we’ve discussed here in some
detail.

Historically there were several different routes between Toronto and
New York, including in the 1830s a horse-powered railway across the
Niagara Peninsula and many different permutations and combinations
since. By the 1950s, the two main routes were the CPR/TH&B/NYC route
described here that brought one into Grand Central Terminal and the
Canadian National/Lehigh Valley/Pennsylvania route that went into
Pennsylvania Station. The latter service was more popular with
Torontonians traveling further south on the Eastern Seaboard since it
didn’t involve a change of stations in New York.

Derek Boles

In a message dated 7/2/2009 2:15:06 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
derekboles@... writes:

the
Canadian National/Lehigh Valley/Pennsylvania route  that went into
Pennsylvania Station. The latter service was more  popular with
Torontonians traveling further south on the Eastern  Seaboard since it
didn’t involve a change of stations in New  York.
===============================================================
They would not have even needed to go to New York to go south. Most LV
trains, including the old Maple Leaf, split a section off at Bethlehem to go to
  Philadelphia on the Reading. The published schedules suggested a transfer
at  Wayne Junction to or from B&O trains south to Washington DC.

If you came into Buffalo on the CP/TH&B route, you could have also  taken a
PRR train directly south to Washington via Harrisburg PA. Same station  in
Buffalo.

Tom Hoffman
Pearisburg VA



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On Wed, Jul 1, 2009 at 22:34, Tom Box <tbox@...> wrote:

> <snip>

What makes its advocates believe that a Toronto - New York
> night train would be more successful than the Montreal -
> Toronto night train that was cancelled in 2005?




The overall Tor-NYC ride is a lot longer to begin with and hotels in NYC are
incredibly expensive - much more so than Montreal.  If I could spend 2 full
days in NYC, only pay for 1 night hotel and enjoy some of the train ride, I
would do it, and my wife would even consider it.

The Enterprise on the other hand didn't leave until late at night, arriving
in Montreal relatively early in the day.  While the arrival time was good, I
thought the departure was too late to be able to enjoy the luxuries of
travelling by rail.  Furthermore, as the route wasn't really long enough for
overnight travel, the train stopped for a number of hours in a siding
outside Kingston (Queens?).  Many will say that if they're lying in a
sleeper that's stopped, they can't sleep because the silence is deafening; -
plus freights would rumble by waking many who were able to sleep.  I know I
didn't really enjoy my one trip on the Enterprise, and I like sleeping on a
(moving) train.

Nevertheless, if an overnight Tor/NYC service is to run using Amtrak
equipment, y'all may as well forget it.  Amtrak can barely cobble together
enough sleepers to run the overnight trains they're supposed to be
providing. The Cardinal between NYC and Chicago via Philadelphia,
Wilmington, Washington, Charlottesville, Cincinnati, and Indianapolis was
running without sleepers several years ago and I hear it still doesn't have
a diner<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cardinal_and_Hoosier_State#Train_consist>.
Maybe this is now out-of-date and they've managed to repair sufficient
numbers of sleeper cars to have some wiggle room, but I doubt it.

Thanks,
Christian.
|=|=|=|=|=|=|=|=|=|=|=|=|=|=|=|=|=|=|=|=|=|=|=|=|=|
Christian Base

"When a train pulls into a great city I am reminded of the closing moments
of an overture." - Graham Greene


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Christian: Toaddress your statement about lack of equipment preventing Amtrak
from supplying sleeping cars to an overnighter plying between
Toronto and New York read I think last months Trains magazine and the money they
have recently been given and  you willsee howthey will
spend it. The sleeper issue will be addressed and about 30  I think F40,s will
be given a tune up and a lotmore matters will be addressed. If I have read it
correcly
life is going to be a lot easier for them.  James  Windsor
   ----- Original Message -----
   From: Christian Base
   To: Canadian-Passenger-Rail@yahoogroups.com
   Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2009 3:24 PM
   Subject: Re: [CanPassRail] Re: A good start for the first Niagara Go Train...





   On Wed, Jul 1, 2009 at 22:34, Tom Box <tbox@...> wrote:

   > <snip>

   What makes its advocates believe that a Toronto - New York
   > night train would be more successful than the Montreal -
   > Toronto night train that was cancelled in 2005?

   The overall Tor-NYC ride is a lot longer to begin with and hotels in NYC are
   incredibly expensive - much more so than Montreal. If I could spend 2 full
   days in NYC, only pay for 1 night hotel and enjoy some of the train ride, I
   would do it, and my wife would even consider it.

   The Enterprise on the other hand didn't leave until late at night, arriving
   in Montreal relatively early in the day. While the arrival time was good, I
   thought the departure was too late to be able to enjoy the luxuries of
   travelling by rail. Furthermore, as the route wasn't really long enough for
   overnight travel, the train stopped for a number of hours in a siding
   outside Kingston (Queens?). Many will say that if they're lying in a
   sleeper that's stopped, they can't sleep because the silence is deafening; -
   plus freights would rumble by waking many who were able to sleep. I know I
   didn't really enjoy my one trip on the Enterprise, and I like sleeping on a
   (moving) train.

   Nevertheless, if an overnight Tor/NYC service is to run using Amtrak
   equipment, y'all may as well forget it. Amtrak can barely cobble together
   enough sleepers to run the overnight trains they're supposed to be
   providing. The Cardinal between NYC and Chicago via Philadelphia,
   Wilmington, Washington, Charlottesville, Cincinnati, and Indianapolis was
   running without sleepers several years ago and I hear it still doesn't have
   a
diner<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cardinal_and_Hoosier_State#Train_consist>.
   Maybe this is now out-of-date and they've managed to repair sufficient
   numbers of sleeper cars to have some wiggle room, but I doubt it.

   Thanks,
   Christian.
   |=|=|=|=|=|=|=|=|=|=|=|=|=|=|=|=|=|=|=|=|=|=|=|=|=|
   Christian Base

   "When a train pulls into a great city I am reminded of the closing moments
   of an overture." - Graham Greene

   [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

James just a polite note. I'm not sure if you know but each time you make a
post on the Group you seem to always have a "CC" (Carbon Copy) as well. If
you don't mind would you just be able to send a single reply at once instead
of a double? It just clogs everyone mail boxes up.

Thanks for your understanding.

----- Original Message -----
From: "james armstrong" <jarmstrong19@...>
To: <Canadian-Passenger-Rail@yahoogroups.com>
Cc: <Canadian-Passenger-Rail@yahoogroups.com>

What TH&B meant, "in better circles":
http://www.thbrailway.ca/general/history.htm top of page.

Mark Walton
mark.walton@...

-----Original Message-----
From: Canadian-Passenger-Rail@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:Canadian-Passenger-Rail@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Peter D.A.
Warwick
Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2009 1:59 PM
To: Canadian-Passenger-Rail@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [CanPassRail] Re: TH&B

Not according to Norman Helm's  In The Shadow Of Giants. The connection was
built by the Th&B and remained TH&B until its formal merger with CP Rail.
 
Peter D. A. Warwick

--- On Thu, 7/2/09, Tom Box <tbox@...> wrote:


From: Tom Box <tbox@...>
Subject: [CanPassRail] Re: TH&B
To: "Canadian Passenger Rail" <Canadian-Passenger-Rail@yahoogroups.com>
Received: Thursday, July 2, 2009, 12:22 PM

Peter Warwick wrote:
> Toronto - Buffalo service operated via CN from Toronto to
> Hamilton Junction under CP, which had running rights, TH&B
> from Hamilton Junction to Welland

Just a minor detail, but I believe the ownership was Canadian
Pacific from Hamilton Junction to the connection near Main and
Dundurn Streets in Hamilton, then Toronto, Hamilton & Buffalo
from Main and Dundurn to Welland.

> and NYC from Welland to Buffalo via Fort Erie.

Tom Box <tbox@...> Toronto, ON, Canada

I will be taking the train to Florida in December to check out the Miami Scene.
I am traveling on the Maple Leaf between Aldershot and Albany where I will
overnight there and then continue on to Miami the next morning traveling on one
of the Empire Service trains then on the Silver Meteor in an Amtrak Roomette. 
I'm doing the same for the return trip with an overnight stay in Albany NY.

The hotels are very reasonably priced in Albany costing not more than 100 per
night and the hotel i'm staying at provides a shuttle between Amtrak and the
hotel.  I have traveled with Amtrak in Sleeper Class and have found their
roomettes to be very comfortable both on the Viewliner and the Superliner
trains.  I do believe that sleeper service should be reinstated between Toronto
and New York but it should be provided on a daily basis and the train should run
daily.  I also think that the Montrealer should be reinstated as well between
Montreal and Washington as that train provided great connections between Via
Rail and Amtrak south.  Fares in sleeper class should be competitive with the
airlines to attract ridership.

Darren










--- In Canadian-Passenger-Rail@yahoogroups.com, "james armstrong"
<jarmstrong19@...> wrote:
>
> Christian: Toaddress your statement about lack of equipment preventing Amtrak
from supplying sleeping cars to an overnighter plying between
> Toronto and New York read I think last months Trains magazine and the money
they have recently been given and  you willsee howthey will
> spend it. The sleeper issue will be addressed and about 30  I think F40,s will
be given a tune up and a lotmore matters will be addressed. If I have read it
correcly
> life is going to be a lot easier for them.  James  Windsor
>   ----- Original Message -----
>   From: Christian Base
>   To: Canadian-Passenger-Rail@yahoogroups.com
>   Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2009 3:24 PM
>   Subject: Re: [CanPassRail] Re: A good start for the first Niagara Go
Train...
>
>
>
>
>
>   On Wed, Jul 1, 2009 at 22:34, Tom Box <tbox@...> wrote:
>
>   > <snip>
>
>   What makes its advocates believe that a Toronto - New York
>   > night train would be more successful than the Montreal -
>   > Toronto night train that was cancelled in 2005?
>
>   The overall Tor-NYC ride is a lot longer to begin with and hotels in NYC are
>   incredibly expensive - much more so than Montreal. If I could spend 2 full
>   days in NYC, only pay for 1 night hotel and enjoy some of the train ride, I
>   would do it, and my wife would even consider it.
>
>   The Enterprise on the other hand didn't leave until late at night, arriving
>   in Montreal relatively early in the day. While the arrival time was good, I
>   thought the departure was too late to be able to enjoy the luxuries of
>   travelling by rail. Furthermore, as the route wasn't really long enough for
>   overnight travel, the train stopped for a number of hours in a siding
>   outside Kingston (Queens?). Many will say that if they're lying in a
>   sleeper that's stopped, they can't sleep because the silence is deafening; -
>   plus freights would rumble by waking many who were able to sleep. I know I
>   didn't really enjoy my one trip on the Enterprise, and I like sleeping on a
>   (moving) train.
>
>   Nevertheless, if an overnight Tor/NYC service is to run using Amtrak
>   equipment, y'all may as well forget it. Amtrak can barely cobble together
>   enough sleepers to run the overnight trains they're supposed to be
>   providing. The Cardinal between NYC and Chicago via Philadelphia,
>   Wilmington, Washington, Charlottesville, Cincinnati, and Indianapolis was
>   running without sleepers several years ago and I hear it still doesn't have
>   a
diner<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cardinal_and_Hoosier_State#Train_consist>.
>   Maybe this is now out-of-date and they've managed to repair sufficient
>   numbers of sleeper cars to have some wiggle room, but I doubt it.
>
>   Thanks,
>   Christian.
>   |=|=|=|=|=|=|=|=|=|=|=|=|=|=|=|=|=|=|=|=|=|=|=|=|=|
>   Christian Base
>
>   "When a train pulls into a great city I am reminded of the closing moments
>   of an overture." - Graham Greene
>
>   [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

This post has absolutely nothing to do with the subject and neither does A good
start for the first Niagara GO Train, which has morphed into a totally different
topic. So please when the subject changes change the subject line. It makes it
easier for future reference in the archives.
 
Peter D. A. Warwick

 














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