Hello Dennis Linsky,

Welcome to the group. My name is George Neely and I worked for the DSR/DOT and I am also from New York [Brooklyn] Did you also work for DSR? I would like to talk to you. Drop me a line.

                George Neely

 Dennismk1@... wrote:

       Good Evening, Dsr-2-Dot:

       Welcome aboard.  I'm from Brooklyn, NY, and I've known the history of DSR in
       the PCC car era.

       It was 52 years ago when the DSR planned to convert the Trumbull streetcar
       line to bus operation by Sunday, July 1, 1951.  The Traffic Engineering Bureau
       has recommended that 12th Street be converted to one-way traffic and this
       forced the abandonment of the last streetcar line Northwest Detroit.  Trumbull
       has been serviced by Peter Witt cars converted to one-man operation.  Its
       route included a short section of unique "alley" PRW.

       The DSR has also brought its oldest piece of rail equipment out of retirement.
       X-76, a 4-wheel shifter built by DUR in 1901, has now been used to move freight
       cars in the Highland Park yard.

       Very Sincerely,

       Dennis M. Linsky
       1350 East 5th Street, Apt. 3P
       Brooklyn, NY   11230-4686
       email:  Dennismk1@...
       3/26/03

****
Visit the DETROIT's PUBLIC TRANSIT SCENE: DSR-2-DOT web-site at:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DSR-2-DOT/

Visit the official D-DOT site at: http://www.ci.detroit.mi.us/ddot/
***********************************************************************
WARNING!! Spamming, foul language, bashing of D-DOT employees, and the like, will result in moderated membership or termination.   
***********************************************************************
To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
DSR-2-DOT-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com



Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

ATTENTION GROUP MEMBERS!!!

FOR THOSE MEMBERS WHO READ MESSAGES FROM THE WEB-SITE:

If you're using an Internet Explorer 6.0 (or higher) browser then you
need to check out a feature we've added for our member's convenience.
Since Yahoo! has it set-up in these Groups where all photo attachments
sent via email must be opened one at a time, we have uploaded a program
which will automatically do that for you. This is a great time saver
when a message is sent to the Group with numerous photo attachments.
THE GREAT NEWS IS YOU DON'T HAVE TO DOWNLOAD A THING!

All email photo attachments located in our message archives area can be
automatically opened all at once by first clicking-on the file called
"!Auto-Picture_Viewer.txt"  located over in our Group's "Files" area
at:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DSR-2-DOT/files/

All you have to do is just click-on the above named file which will
then send you over to our Group's "Messages" area. Choose any message
which contain photo attachment's and you will be pleased by what you
see. All "jpeg" or "gif" photos in that message will open automatically
for you.

Sorry!.....Netscape users or those with older versions of Internet
Explorer are out of luck.


-HBCII (DSR-2-DOT Owner)



[PLEASE NOTE!-This email is a bi-monthly auto-sent file message]

A special thanks and credit to L. Sneed for the use of images
contained in album

Hello "dennismk12002" and welcome to the group!

Thanks for sharing that DSR streetcar info with us. The more I
research it I'm really amazed on how much rail service we actually
had operating in Detroit at one time. Though I wasn't here yet, I
find the whole PCC era with the DSR here quite interesting and
disappointing.

I will be doing a couple of theme messages on the PCC days here in
Detroit early next month, since April will mark the anniversary of
the end of streetcar service in Detroit. So stay tuned and feel free
to add any PCC info, comments, or even any personal PCC experiences
during that time.

Again.....welcome!

-HBCII


--- In DSR-2-DOT@yahoogroups.com, Dennismk1@a... wrote:
>        Good Evening, Dsr-2-Dot:
>
>        Welcome aboard.  I'm from Brooklyn, NY, and I've known the
history of
> DSR in
>        the PCC car era.
>
>        It was 52 years ago when the DSR planned to convert the
Trumbull
> streetcar
>        line to bus operation by Sunday, July 1, 1951.  The Traffic
> Engineering Bureau
>        has recommended that 12th Street be converted to one-way
traffic and
> this
>        forced the abandonment of the last streetcar line Northwest
Detroit.
> Trumbull
>        has been serviced by Peter Witt cars converted to one-man
operation.
> Its
>        route included a short section of unique "alley" PRW.
>
>        The DSR has also brought its oldest piece of rail equipment
out of
> retirement.
>        X-76, a 4-wheel shifter built by DUR in 1901, has now been
used to
> move freight
>        cars in the Highland Park yard.
>
>        Very Sincerely,
>
>        Dennis M. Linsky
>

Thanks very much junction1721 for the comments about the group, and
believe it or not, you have helped a great deal already. As far as a
new MSN group goes, I'll have to think on that one. After moderating
a number of Yahoo! Groups/Clubs for the past four years, including a
private family group and a couple of test groups, beside belonging to
a number of moderator advise groups, I've become pretty well-versed
with this Yahoo! thing.

Aside from recently joining your MSN "SMART" group, and a few others,
I'm not too familiar with the MSN format. I will admit though, I do
like the way photo albums are displayed over in MSN, and sometimes
those Yahoo! glitches and unfounded, unexplained "error" messages can
be a gigantic PITA. But traffic seems to be move active in Yahoo!
Groups than in most other formats, but that's just my observation.

I am considering doing an actual web-site just on the DSR, but
haven't really gotten it off the ground yet, with time being an
important factor. But I'll get back with you thru my other email addy
and discuss more about it.

Thanks again for your comments.

-HBCII(TTS191776)




--- In DSR-2-DOT@yahoogroups.com, "Michael koprowicz" <Bwv565@m...>
wrote:
> Mr. Craig,
>
> I am very impressed by the wealth of historic photos and info you
have. I
> would love to help in any ways possible, in addition to the photos.
I was
> wondering, unless you object, what If I copy the info you have
posted so
> far, pictures and text and make a double of the website under an
MSN group
> address, it would be easier for others to access and I think the
page format
> would look better, and if you wanted to use it , I could hand over
the
> webmaster position to you. I dont want to steal and info, I just
think it
> would look really good on msn groups. Let me know!
> Thanks,
> Michael
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE*
> http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail

Mr. Craig,

I am very impressed by the wealth of historic photos and info you have. I
would love to help in any ways possible, in addition to the photos. I was
wondering, unless you object, what If I copy the info you have posted so
far, pictures and text and make a double of the website under an MSN group
address, it would be easier for others to access and I think the page format
would look better, and if you wanted to use it , I could hand over the
webmaster position to you. I dont want to steal and info, I just think it
would look really good on msn groups. Let me know!
Thanks,
Michael

_________________________________________________________________
STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE*
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail

My current focus of thought moves toward the care and training of the
new hires that have accepted the responsibility of operating and
representing our organization for the service of our DETROIT citizens.

To some it is obvious with SOME of the new hires  are not prepared to
a part of an organizational machine ,with  a purposes of existence
dedicated to transporting citizens of the city of DETROIT.

Let's face it..........new jobs are tough......and under the duress
of  "" Need  MO' ""  and proving health insurance for the family you
love asks of an indiviidual too try out all options.

Insted of finding fault with imagined inadequacy with the 'rookies' ,
my focus tends toward more mentoring with the very real human touch
of caring about them at  a time that may be more difficult that any
of us COULD know.

How do you care?.........Social interaction and courtesy are great
for starters along with being prepared to to HELP......if things fit
with your expertise, temperment  and ability.

If our co-workers are well adjusted to the tasks facing
them ...........involving personal psychological evaluation and in
all ways  understanding that the transportaion of our fellow CITIZENS
to thier destination of choice integrally involves US in the
community and in the lives of these very real human beings.....then
he screamed.........""wheeze be on the  rat trak""

HTML Attachment [ Save to my Yahoo! Briefcase  |  Download File ]

The thought came to me to compile TEOs job related experiences that
happen to us during our  employment at DDOT. The story of
information would be compile and made into a book form and for sale
on the market(stop laughing). I do not believe that it has been done
yet and I believe it would sell.  Here is one from my archives.
It was four-thirty in the morning and I was driving an articulate
coach. I traveled up Hayes street toward Eight-mile and circle
around to go on my route on the Gratiot line. While on eight-mile, I
stopped to talk to a co-worker(my follower). I was in the middle of
the street and talk for about two minutes and then went on. I made a
left off of Eight-mile unto Gratiot, but stopped by what was then
Michigan National Bank to adjust my right mirror. While adjusting my
mirror, alittle guy hand ran from the direction of eight-mile and
said thank for waiting and paid his fare and sat down. I said to
myself that I was not waiting for you, but was adjusting my mirror.
I proceeded south on Gratiot and was picking up passengers here and
there, but notice in my left mirror that then East Detroit police
was following me without any lights on. I thought then that they
probably wanted to talk to me about stopping in the middle of the
street. I concluded that if they wanted to talk to me they will have
to pull me over. I continue on and notice in my right mirror that
another police car was trailing me with their lights off too. I
crossed Seven mile and pick up a few passengers and continue on
south of Gratiot. When I got to what I believe was Linnhurst, by
where Rally's use to be, but where Popeye chicken is, at the traffic
light, I saw Detroit police travelling north on Gratiot with their
lights flashing. I had to stop at the that intersection because the
light turned red and that police car stopped directly in front of my
coach.  By this time the two East Detroit police car pulled up
along  both side of  the coach and several more Detroit police cars
begin to show up, with their lights flashing. No police officer got
out of their cars. I turned around on the coach and said "alright,
who on this coach had done something wrong"   No one said a word. I
sat there for a couple of minutes looking at the police cars showing
up and then ease my front door open and I got off the coach!  No
sooner than I got off, all the police officers jump out of their
cars with all sorts of guns and rushed the coach. They were yelling
everybody on the coach get your hands up!!! I turned observed them
snatching the young who got on at Eight-mile, with a long black
trench coat on and sat directly behind me, and took him off. They
were searching him and found what they were looking for. East
Detroit police came back to me and was thanking me for a job well
done, of the which I replied for what?  They informed me that the
little guy had just robbed the White Castle on Eight-mile and sat
right behind me on the coach.  They must have thought that he was
holding me captive or making me drive. They said that he did not
even have a gun, but had robbed the place with a water hose
nozzle!!! Imagine that!
THIS REALLY HAPPENED!!!!!
MURPHY/TEO(2376)at SHOEMAKER

THIS IS THE TYPE OF INFORMATION THAT WE COULD COMPILE, SHARE AND
FORMULATE INTO A BOOK.  WHAT DO YOU THINK?

HELLO MEMBERS!
It's been 10 days since we officially launched this group, and we're
currently already looking at twenty plus members. I've also invited
others who've promised to join soon as well. As more members join I
would like to emphasize that in addition to us being a photo archive &
information group, we're also a discussion group as well.

I know, nobody wants to be the first to express themselves, but in
order to make this community a success some participation is needed
from the members as well. Hey!....if I can do it, (Mr. Super Shy
Himself), I'm sure it would be a breeze for some others. Let's hear
from some of you here. You don't have to write a novel or anything
like that. We could even start off with, What do you think about the
Group?

-Is the group more or less than you expected?

-What would make the group more interesting for you?

-What would you like to see more or less of here?

Remember!....Even though I've posted a number of "Historical"
messages, this is not a history only group. We can discuss things
like.....What's happening in and around D-DOT....Your opinions on
what would make this a "Better" or "World Class" (sorry 'bout that)
system....Which policy improvements would you like to see.....and
more! As you can see, the topics can be endless.

But we would like to hear from some of you. Don't worry, I won't give
you a "dismiss" for any 'constructive' criticism you might suggest.

Finally.....pass the word on! Let others know about us. Tell them to
check us out at:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DSR-2-DOT/

Hope to hear from y'all soon. You can send an email message to our
group at:
DSR-2-DOT@yahoogroups.com
....or just post a message from the web-site by clicking "Post"
located on the left of the page.

-H.B.Craig,II(TTS191776)
Group Owner & Moderator

hEY fOLKS!
After posting the message yesterday regarding the end of the "RTS", I posed the question ..."Where do we go from here for new buses?"  Well, today, after speaking with a really dependable source, I was able to find an answer to that question. 

For those TEO's who like the New Flyer (30-3100) coaches ....there's some good news for you!  My source tells me that D-DOT has ordered 60 low floor coaches from New Flyer.

Sixty New Flyer "Model D40LF" buses will be heading to Detroit. A few of the features of the D40LF include; a no step entry; anti-slip flooring; large panoramic windows; and the use of a bridging ramp, instead of a lift, to load wheelchair passengers.

Currently the D40LF is operating in cities such as, Chicago, IL; Las Vegas, NV; Atlanta GA; Houston, TX and even Ann Arbor, MI.

I've included a couple of photos of the New Flyer D40LF with this message to show what they look like.

-Grp. Stationmaster (TTS191776)

(ATTENTION! THOSE READING FROM THE WEB-SITE: Internet Explorer 6.0 (or higher) users: All email photo attachments in our Message archives can be automatically opened at once  by firs  clicking-on the file "!Auto-Picture_Viewer.txt"  located in our group's "Files" area)  

THE END OF A TRANSIT ICON!



In September 1977, General Motors Truck & Coach Division began mass production of its first newly designed urban transit bus since 1959. This new modern streamlined bus was based after GM's "RTX" experimental transit bus of 1968.

This new Rapid Transit Series coach, the "RTS", included such new features as; a new Allison three-speed automatic transmission; energy-absorbing bumpers; a unique suspension system which enabled the bus to "kneel" five inches for easier boarding and alighting; improved automatically controlled air-conditioning and heating; expanded "picture window effect" tinted glass areas; wall-mounted cantilevered seats for easier cleaning, and florescent lighting with new interior colors.

But after 25 years of production, it now appears the the RTS-II bus has now become a thing of the past.

In a press release earlier last year, NovaBUS, which acquired the RTS in 1994, announced that it was seeking a buyer for its RTS manufacturing facility in Roswell, New Mexico. Company officials stated that a decreasing demand for high-floor buses during the last 12 to 18 months has lead to unsustainable losses for the operation. Bob Shaughnessy, president of NovaBUS, said "that in the event that a buyer is not found, we will progressively reduce operation to an eventual close" in four to nine months. It appears that no buyer was found. NovaBUS will continue to produce it's low floor bus, the Nova LFS, in Quebec, Canada, but RTS production in Roswell has ceased.

The RTS bus was originally manufactured by GMC Truck & Coach in Pontiac, Michigan. GM later decided to leave the bus business and sold its bus division to TMC (Transportation Manufacturing Corp.), a subsidiary of Greyhound Corp., in 1987. TMC's RTS business was acquired by NovaBUS in 1994. The RTS experienced various design changes and internal engineering improvements through the years, with the most obvious being the "square-back" design change to accommodate the improved air-conditioning apparatus in 1981.

In Detroit, the RTS experienced a somewhat love/hate relationship with the DOT. Ironically, Detroit was the nation's first recipient of the 40-ft "series 3"  RTS coach in 1978. A fleet of seventy coaches (#1300-1369) began arriving on May 3, 1978. A total of 111 had arrived by the time the order was completed in October. Additional fleets were purchased in 1979 and 1980, giving Detroit a total of 307 RTS coaches, including seventeen 35-ft buses.

But Detroit's enthusiasm for the RTS soon fizzled. During the 1980's, numerous problems with the RTS led many D-DOT officials to call the buses "pieces of junk" with "balky air-conditioners, and brakes, front suspensions and engine cooling systems that sometimes seem designed to break down." The RTS was blamed for most of the system's problems back then. So much so, that D-DOT officials refused to order more RTS's and turned to other manufacturers, including GM of Canada's "Classic" bus design.

But according to John Nasi, president of then RTS manufacturer TMC, Detroit's RTS problems appeared to be unique to Detroit. He said "There's a good number of Southern (cities) that bought the very same (bus) unit that Detroit did,...Maintenance is the key,...You have to be aggressive with it."

But things did make a turn-around. Beginning with the thirty-three RTS-II's that were diverted to D-DOT from a SMART coach order in August 1995, it seems like the love relationship was now back on. Since 1995, 354 RTS coaches have been purchased by the DOT from NovaBUS. As a matter of fact, aside from a few small-size buses, the DOT has ordered nothing but RTS coaches since 1995.

Now it seems like the decision won't be left up to D-DOT for future RTS orders. Unless another manufacturer steps forward...and it doesn't look like they have....it appears that the sixty 3800 series RTS coaches which arrived in early 2002 will mark the end of an era here in Detroit.

So where do we go from here for new buses?......Only time will tell!!!!

____________________________________________________________________________________
FOOTNOTE: I'd like to express much thanks and appreciation to Shoemaker TEO K. Marshall for his "great" knowledge of RTS coaches and his contribution to this message. 
____________________________________________________________________________________

PHOTO ATTACHMENT INFO (below):
PHOTO #1: (DOT-1403L-RTS) Coach #1403L was one of the original "sloping back" GMC "RTS" coaches delivered to Detroit in 1978

PHOTO #2: (DOT_RTS-3714) Coach #3714 is a recent version NovaBUS "RTS" with the revised "square-back" design. [Photo courtesy of METRO BUS @ msn groups] 

PHOTO #3: (nova-lfs_dome_big) This is the Nova LFS (Low Floor Series) bus. Could these buses be in D-DOT's future?

(ATTENTION! THOSE READING FROM THE WEB-SITE: Internet Explorer 6.0 (or higher) users: All email photo attachments in our Message archives can be automatically opened at once  by firs  clicking-on the file "!Auto-Picture_Viewer.txt"  located in our group's "Files" area) 

HELLO MEMBERS!
For those who aren't yet familiar with the Yahoo! Group's format, one
feature these communities offer is the ability to post messages to the
group. These messages can be sent either via email or from the
web-site.

To send messages via email simply type a message as you would normally
do on your PC and send it to our email address:
DSR-2-DOT@yahoogroups.com
All messages sent via email will be posted on our web-site's message
(archive) board and will also be sent to all members who have their
accounts set to receive email from the group.

To post a message from the web-site simply click-on "Post" located on
the left navigation box, then type your message in the box. When
finished click "Send." Your message will be posted on the message
(archive) board and will also be sent to our members via email. Please
note that messages posted from the web-site cannot include photo
attachments.

Remember folks! We would love to get your feedback. Whether positive,
negative or indifferent. Your comments and suggestions are welcome. Let
us know what you want to see happening here. I will begin aggressively
promoting this group in a few days.....but in the mean time we can
still start things up now. LET'S TALK!!

If you know anyone who might be interested in this group pass on the
web address. It's
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DSR-2-DOT/

-Grp. Stationmaster (TTS191776)


TOMORROW: A RTS update message

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop!
http://platinum.yahoo.com

ATTENTION MEMBERS!
I just finished updating the coach roster list titled "DDOT BUS
ROSTER [Active Fleet]" over in our "Database" area. If you see any
errors or anything you think should be added feel free to let me
know. Either here or via private email.

You can check out the roster by either visiting our "Database"
section or by clicking-on the following link:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DSR-2-DOT/database


BTW--You can also view a printable version of each table by clicking-
on "Printable Report" located at the bottom of the page.


-Grp. Stationmaster (TTS191776)

ATTENTION MEMBERS!!
One of the features of our group is the ability for our members to post photos individually or in "theme" albums and sub-albums. The following albums currently contain photos.


Current DSR-2-DOT Photo Albums: 
     DOT BUS PHOTOS [1974-NOW] (will soon be updated) 
     ddot2000 
     DSR BUS PHOTOS [1945-1974] 
     GM NEW LOOK COACH [#1001-1148] (more photos later) 
     GM NEW LOOK COACH [#1601-2520] (more photos later) 
     GM NEW LOOK COACH [#2601-2934] (more photos later) 
     GM OLD LOOK COACH [#1001-1120] (more photos later)
     GM OLD LOOK COACH [#1201-1555] (more photos later)
     GRAND RIVER AVE. TROLLEY COACH 
     MAPS 
     MISC. PHOTOS 
     MISC. STREETCAR PHOTOS (will soon be updated) 
     P.C.C. STREETCARS [1949-1956] 
     WARREN AVE. (X-TOWN) TROLLEY COACH

Many of the above albums, including additional albums featuring AM General buses, GMC RTS-II's and others, will be updated later to coincide with future messages focusing on that particular series of equipment.

To view the above photo albums just visit the following web-page
http://photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/DSR-2-DOT/lst 


PHOTO ALBUM NOTE: The photo section of our group displays the "Thumbnail" viewing of photos as the default setting. Additional photo album info can also be viewed by clicking-on the "List" option located near the top right of the page. Info such as the album's creator, size, access (personal or group), and when the album was last modified can be viewed under this setting.

-Grp. Stationmaster (Moderator)
DETROIT's PUBLIC TRANSIT SCENE: DSR-2-DOT
 

Thanks "natfra1" for sharing your photos with us. I'm glad to see you were able to upload your photos to your album.  Members can find Natfra1's photos in the photo album "ddot2000"

ALSO!-If any of our members have any DDOT/DSR related photos to share you can also create you own personal photo album in the "Photos" area. The photos can be of rolling stock (past and present), co-workers, retirees, employees at work photos, etc...

-Grp. Stationmaster(TTS191776)

FOOTNOTE! - After uploading photos members can also add a description as well. Just click on "Edit Name", located just under photo, and you'll see where you can add a new name and also add a brief photo description as well.

 "natfra1@..." <natfra1@...> wrote:

Hello,

I tried to format into my photo album but it would not go in. Would you please enter for me. My photo album name is Dot2000

 

I tried to format into my photo album but it would not go in. Would you please enter for me. My photo album name is Dot2000

You can view this Photo Album by using your web browser to follow the link below.
(Copy and paste the link into your browser if necessary.)

http://expressit.broderbund.com/sa.asp?aid=m86rzmmr2

We hope you enjoy this Photo Album! If you have any comments
please let us know at Broderbund.com

Sincerely,
The BroderbundTeam

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Hello Members!
I'd like to welcome our first members to our group "DSR-2-DOT." After months of researching and setting things up here I will be officially launching this baby on March 15th.  WELCOME ABOARD FOLKS!!!!

 In the mean time, I need a little assistance from y'all.

In our group's "Database" area I've set up a number of roster lists covering past and present DSR/DDOT rolling stock. These include info on buses, trolleys and streetcars used from 1945 til the present.  Most are complete, but a few rosters lack retirement dates on some equipment.

Here's where you folks can come in. I need for those memory banks to get to working for me and pass on the year you can recall when some of our recent fleet was "officially" retired. I'm trying to work with a few other sources, but what would be better than those out there in the field.

I'm missing "retirement years" for the following:

1001-1148 (1975 GM "new look")
1300-1410 (1978 GMC "RTS-II")
1501-1605 (1979 GMC "RTS-II")
1710-1717 (1979 35-ft GMC "RTS-II")
1801-1874 (1980 GMC "RTS-II")
8900-8913 (1989 Neoplan "Artics")
3300-3329 (1996 Goshen-small buses)

I'm trying to get this info from other sources as well, but things are moving kinda slow there. You can view all six "Roster" tables in our "Database" area or by visiting the following web-page:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DSR-2-DOT/database

Thanks again for Joining!
Grp. Stationmaster (TTS191776)

EARLY D.S.R. MOTOR BUS PHOTOS

The DSR continued to purchase various styles of small size buses during the late 1920's, including a fleet of smaller 15-passenger "Parlor" buses. These were used on "Delux" routes created to replace the jitneys, which had been outlawed in 1928. But a number of larger coaches were also purchased during that time as well.

When the DUR's Peoples' Motor Coach Co. sold its 41 Yellow Coach fleet to the DSR in 1926 they were basically the DSR's first fleet of large size buses.


 A Fleet of forty-one "used" Yellow Coach buses were obtained from the DUR in 1926.


In November 1926, fifty 60-passenger A.C.F. (American Car & Foundry) gas-electric double-deck coaches were purchased. Evidently, these double-deckers must have taken some getting use to. According to "Detroit's DSR, Part 1" by Jack E. Schramm (Motor Coach Age), during the summer of 1927 one of the big ACF's lost its top deck in a mishap when its driver tried to take it to Belle Isle through the Jefferson Avenue underpass on E. Grand Blvd. The coach was rebuilt as a single-decker and then served as the model for the others, which were all cut down in 1929-30. No word yet on if the operator was fired. (smile)

Other large size buses included a fleet of twenty 40-passenger Twin-Mechanical buses, the majority purchased in November 1928. An additional thirty-two were leased, and later purchased, from the Detroit Motorbus Co. in 1932 after the company lost its right to operate in Detroit.


          Twin-Mechanical coach #302 was purchased in November 1928.


In 1928 forty-three 38-40 passenger American Car & Foundry "Metropolitan" buses were purchased. An additional fifty 37-passenger A.C.F.-Metro buses were purchased in October 1930. The A.C.F.-Metros were the DSR's last large buses purchased 'new' until the 1945 GM diesels.

PHOTO ATTACHMENT INFO (below):
PHOTO #1: (AmCarFoundry-doubledeck) 50 Detroit built A.C.F. double-decker buses were delivered starting in Nov. 1926. All were later rebuilt as single-deckers by 1930.

PHOTO #2: (Twin-Mech02) A fleet of 20 Twin-Mech. coaches were purchased through March 1929. 32 more were later obtained from the DUR in 1932.

PHOTO #3: (AmCarFoundry01) Over ninety gas-electric A.C.F.-Mech. coaches were purchased through 1930. The last new large buses until 1945.

(ATTENTION! THOSE READING FROM THE WEB-SITE: Internet Explorer 6.0 (or higher) users: All email photo attachments in our Message archives can be automatically opened at once  by first clicking-on the file "!Auto-Picture_Viewer.txt"  located in our group's "Files" area) 
 

EARLY D.S.R. MOTOR BUS PHOTOS

When the DSR began providing bus service in 1925 the fleet consisted primarily of small, locally built, 21-passenger Dodge-Graham buses. They were cheap to run and inexpensive at $3,529 each. Most of these regular Dodge-Grahams continued in service until replaced by the small size front engine Fords in 1935.

A small fleet of twelve 21 passenger Reo buses were also purchased at a cost of a little over $3,800 each by the DSR. Two arrived in March 1925 and the last ten in May. They were all retired in 1929.




PHOTO ATTACHMENT INFO (below):
PHOTO #1: (Dodge-Graham04) Passengers are shown transferring from an ex-DUR streetcar to Graham coach #51 at Mack and Hart Loop on January 1, 1925, the first day of DSR bus service. [Manning Bros. Historical Collection Photo]

PHOTO #2: (Dodge-Graham02) On the first day of bus operation coach #57 is shown nearing the eastern end of the Mack route near Cadieux Road. [Schramm Collection Photo]

PHOTO #3: (Reobus02-2) In addition to its large fleet of Grahams, the DSR also bought a small fleet of 12 Reo buses. Both makes are shown in this photo. [Manning Bros. Historical Collection Photo]

(ATTENTION! THOSE READING FROM THE WEB-SITE: Internet Explorer 6.0 (or higher) users: All email photo attachments in our Message archives can be automatically opened at once  by first clicking-on the file "!Auto-Picture_Viewer.txt"  located in our group's "Files" area) 

EARLY D.S.R. STREETCAR PHOTOS

Not long after the DUR take-over the DSR quickly discovered that its fleet of 250 small 28' long single-truck Birney safety cars were unable to handle the demands of heavy service. These cars, delivered to the M.O. in 1921, soon became unpopular with the public, and became known as "Couzens' Cooties" and later as "half-Witts" (a ridiculing comparison to the larger well-liked Peter Witt cars).
 
       
   A large fleet of smaller 32 seater Birneys cars were first used by the M.O. in 1921. 

In 1924 the DSR attempted to sell 200 of their Birney cars, but only 56 were ever sold. The remaining 194 were stripped and used for parts on a few of the remaining cars which found limited use. The last few remaining Birneys operated until 1939.

The dilapidated older fleet acquired from the DUR also posed a problem for the DSR. At least a third of the rolling stock consisted of old and out-of-date cars, and many had to be scrapped. One bright spot for the DSR were the 50-car fleet of Kuhlman-built Peter Witts, which were also delivered to the M.O. in 1921. These larger 48'6" long 52 seater cars were well able to handle the demands of large-city service.
 
      
  Peter Witt style cars, like #3559, dominated rail service in Detroit for over 30 years.

These Witts were also well-liked by the public and the DSR soon became well-known for its wide use of Peter Witt cars. By 1930 a fleet of 781 Peter Witts provided the backbone of Detroit's transit service. Various makes of Peter Witts operated on the rails of Detroit for at least 30 years, until the last ones were replaced by PCC cars and buses in 1953.

PHOTO ATTACHMENT INFO (below):
PHOTO #1: (Birney_188) Birney car #188 is shown laying over on the Mt. Elliott line. The 250 Birneys proved to be Detroit's poorest investment in rail transportation. [Elmer Kremkow Photo]

PHOTO #2: (PeterWitt_3352) Car #3352 (a 1922 St. Louis Car Co. built Peter Witt) is shown servicing the Gratiot line while loading at Campus Martius. [Schramm Collection Photo]

PHOTO #3: (PeterWitt_3224) Car #3224 was one of a fleet of 50 Kuhlman built Witts delivered to the Municipal Operation (M.O.) in 1921. It's shown here (circa 1923) on the Charlevoix-Buchanan line at Pennsylvania and Charlevoix. [Manning Brothers Historical Photo]


(ATTENTION! THOSE READING FROM THE WEB-SITE: Internet Explorer 6.0 (or higher) users: All email photo attachments in our Message archives can be automatically opened at once  by first clicking-on the file "!Auto-Picture_Viewer.txt"  located in our group's "Files" area)

THE HISTORY OF THE DSR - Part 2 (How it all started!)

As mentioned in the last post, citizen dissatisfaction with the DUR's service was growing. The DUR streetcar lines were struggling to handle enormous and increasing crowds. On February 10, 1910, the Detroit News assigned a reporter to study what it was like going home on the Baker Street line. The reporter boarded a westbound 6:15pm car at Michigan and Griswold.  He noted that on every corner along the route were groups of citizens anxious to get home. When the car would stop passengers piled on, fighting and twisting just to get a foothold. He went on to write:

"With the inside of the car full, soon every inch on the front and rear steps were occupied by men clinging to the car. Other would-be-passengers, unable to find footing on the step, piled on the fender and rested against the front of the car....

....They stuck to the fender and cursed the DUR when the motorman pleaded with them to get off."

Such conditions moved many city officials to again come out in favor of the city's purchase of the rail lines.  A Detroit News article noted that many irate passengers would often take DUR motormen to court under a city ordinance which made it a misdemeanor to fail to stop a car with space for more passengers when patrons were waiting at a legal boarding zone.

The article went on to add  "When one defendant, motorman George Brown, denied in court that he and his colleagues ever did such a thing, Judge William F. Connolly adjourned the case and went out in rush hour to see for himself. What he saw made him so angry he disqualified himself from the case and announced he would be a witness against the motorman."

                 
  Passengers hang on to a crowded Baker line trolley in 1910.  (Det. News Photo) 

Meanwhile, things weren't getting any better for the DUR. In 1919 James Couzens (1919-1922) had been elected mayor of Detroit on a platform which included the city's acquisition of the DUR. His first attempt in 1919 was turned down by the voters. But Mayor Couzens was determined to put the struggling, privately-owned DUR out of business. Couzens worked hard for his new plan he dubbed "Service-at-once."   On April 5, 1920, the voters of Detroit approved Mayor Couzens' plan to build 100 miles of track, buy 400 new streetcars, and operate a separate municipally owned rail system.

On February 1, 1921, the City of Detroit began to operate a small competing street railway operation that was then known as the MO or the "Municipal Operation." During its short existence, it operated service on the following lines: the Charlevoix-Buchanan "Crosstown" Line, the St. Jean Line (fr. Kercheval to Harper & Gratiot), the Moran-McDougall Line,  Van Dyke (fr. Charlevoix to Harper), Clairmount (fr. Colby & Russell to Joy Rd. & Gd. River), Fenkell (fr. 12th & Davison to Fenkell & Livernois), and Davison (fr. Oakman & 12th to Livernois). Unfortunately, the MO had no access to downtown Detroit.

The MO began running its fleet of small single-trunk Birney safety cars from a hastily built temporary yard and maintenance shed at Shoemaker & St. Jean. A permanent carhouse was also being built on the same location. The Shoemaker Carhouse was opened on July 4, 1922. A temporary carhouse was also built at Junction & McGraw, but only Clairmount cars were based there.

Attempts were made by the DUR in court to challenge the Municipal Ownership ordinance, but were unsuccessful. After turning down trivial offers by the city, the DUR threatened to pull up its tracks, but this was protested by downtown businesses. As a result, an agreement was reached for joint service, which began on Dec. 15, 1921 on the Trumbull Line, and later extended to the Hamilton, Woodward, and the East and West Fort Lines in Jan. of 1922. Each system agreed to pay 20 cents per car mile for operating over the other's rails. The MO was also allowed to store its cars in DUR carhouses for $5.00 a day.

With the city-owned system now slowly expanding, along with the city's denial to renew service franchise aggrements on expired DUR city lines, the future prospect for extensions and other much needed DUR improvements looked dim. Finally the Canadian investors who controlled the *DUR decided to give up and sell out to the city.  On March 13, 1922, a price of $19,850,000 was agreed upon. On April 17, 1922, the purchase was approved by Detroit voters along with a $4 million bond issue. The "Thirty Years War" for municipal ownership was now over.

On May 15, 1922, at 12:01am, the DEPARTMENT OF STREET RAILWAYS (the D.S.R.) began its first day of operation. The city of Detroit became the first large American city to seek an alternative to privately owned mass transportation through municipal ownership.

The DSR now controlled practically all street railway trackage inside the then 1920 Detroit city limits; controlling some 363 miles of track, employing 4000 workers, and operating 1,457 streetcars from 13 carhouses. Thirty acres of the DUR's Highland Park property, located north of LaBelle (Manchester), between Woodward Ave. and Third, also became the property of the DSR, and served as a storage garage and major maintenance facility until the early 1970's.

                    

NEXT IN THE SERIES....How the DSR's bus operation got its start.

(to be continued....)
_______________________________________________________________________
*NOTE--The DUR continued to operate its extensive electric interurban rail service to the suburbs and as far away as Flint and Toledo. The DUR began acquiring some suburban bus companies in 1924. These lines later became a part of Great Lakes Greyhound Lines. The Great Lakes Bus Co. later became a part of SEMTA during the late 1960's.
______________________________________________________________
Above information acquired from Detroit's Street Railways Vol.II / misc. Jack E. Schramm articles / detroitnews.com / other numerous sources

THE HISTORY OF THE DSR - Part 1 (Before Municipal Ownership)

The Detroit city limits only covered a total area of under 13 square miles and its population was about 50,000 on a Monday evening back in 1863. It was August 3, 1863 when Detroiters gathered to watch three tiny horse-drawn rail cars bounce along Jefferson Avenue from Randolph to Elmwood. Lead then by the Detroit City Railway Company, the era of public transportation in Detroit had now begun.....all by means of horsepower. Soon afterward, other private companies began to offer rail service on other main artery routes as well.

 
In the very beginning days only horse-drawn cars serviced the streets of Detroit.

Electric cars soon began operating on Dix Avenue (now known as W. Vernor) from 24th to Livernois (the city's western limits) on September 1, 1886.  But because of public concerns over the danger of naked electric lines strung above the middle of city streets, they were withdrawn by order of the city in 1888. As a result, Detroit returned back to horse-drawn cars, which continued to be used on many lines until 1896.

However, the advantages of electric cars soon prevailed. On Monday, August 22, 1892, at 7:42am, the Detroit Citizens' Street Railway began electric car service on Jefferson Avenue.  Woodward Ave. was soon to follow in December, and then Mack Ave. in 1893. Electrification was completed on most lines by November 1895. These electric cars were twice as fast as the horse-drawn cars and Detroiters loved them. They climbed aboard these new electric trolleys in droves. Their only competition was the bicycle.

But politics soon got involved.  On-going feuds over lower fares during the 1890's, between then mayor Hazen S. Pingree (1890-1897) and the Detroit Citizens' Street Railway, triggered numerous attempts by the mayor to help authorize the city to operate its own street railway service.  But despite Mayor Pingree's efforts, all of Detroit's streetcar lines were instead later unified under one privately owned company. This new company, now called the Detroit United Railway (DUR), began operating on December 31, 1900.

The DUR was a consolidation of city and suburban rail companies, merging all then existing privately owned companies. These included the Detroit Citizens' Street Railway, the Detroit Railway (DR), and The Detroit Electric Railway Co.(DER), to name a few. Approximately twenty-nine companies had operated over tracks in Detroit from 1862-1922.

The DUR now provided rail service not only within the city of Detroit, but also operated many Interurban Lines to cities such as Port Huron, Flint, Pontiac, Ann Arbor, Jackson, and even Toledo, Ohio. Between 1901 and 1920 the DUR basically conducted its operations without competition.

But the honeymoon between Detroiters and the DUR didn't last long. Complaints about inadequate service and monopoly exploitation swelled into a rising tide of citizen dissatisfaction.

       
Passengers often had to battle for space on cars during rush hour.
(Det. News Photo)

The DUR streetcar lines were now struggling to handle enormous and increasing crowds. Service was so bad that the Detroit News assigned a reporter to report on what it was like going home on the Baker line. His report, and how the DSR got started follows next.

(to be continued....)
_____________________________________________________________
Above information acquired from Detroit's Street Railways Vol.II / misc. Jack E. Schramm articles / detroitnews.com / and other numerous sources

Hello,

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