Gentelmen , Its been a long time since we talked about the Gravity ,
I havent had much time so far this summer to get out and explore ,
been kinda hot , anyway I thought I would explain about E&WV RR , I
have gotten a few inquires about the E&WV that it did not cross the
gorge near the # 7 reservoir here in Dunmore till the early 1900's .
Not so

  It crossed about the time the E&WV track was completed in late 1883
early 1884 , now remember the Gravity and the E&WV RR ran in
operation for a little over a year side by side with each other
untill Dec of 1885 when the Gravity was abandoned all together . So
some of you are scratching your heads wondering why the E&WV crossed
the Roaring Brook , what and why would they need to come over on this
side of the Roaring Brook , the answer is the same reason that kept
the Gravity busy , COAL yes coal from the mines and to service the
various Coal Breakers in Dunmore , the Breakers in quetion were the
Roaring Brook Breaker on Meade St. later to be known as Spencers
Breaker , the # 1 Breaker which was PCC owned and operated , the
Gypsie Grove Breakers also PCC plus a few other breakers that popped
up over the next few years .

  Two more Breakers may have been serviced for a few years after 1885
by the E&WV though I have no proof ,  the breakers were in existence
after 1885 , the # 6 & 1/2 breaker which was ony about 100 or 150
yards from the Roaring Brook Breaker and the # 6 breaker which was
located at the end off Helen St. . All 3 breakers were just about in
a straight line from each other and the E&WV could have extended the
tracks from the Roaring Brook Breaker to the # 6 Breaker , now I
think this extended line to 6 and a half and then to 6 was only for a
short time , 6 and half may have been the first to go with the # 6
soon after , again I have no proof but the Breakers were there after
1885 this I know for sure .

  Anyway I thought I would explain the reason for the E&WV RR to cross
over to this side of the Roaring Brook . And again your imput is
greatly appreciated .

   Thanks for your time and attention ,

           Tony Ranella Jr.

          Historian on the PCC Gravity

Tony

A point of interest- the below URL shows a map dated 1891 of the No. 7
area and some of the railroads in the vicinity (unfortunately, it
doesn't show the Gravity). It shows the Erie & Wyoming Valley, and the
Delaware Lackawanna & Western. It's interesting to note it shows that
both these railroads crossed Roaring Brook in the area where present
day RT 380 now crosses the brook (the E & WV bridge is still there),
and that the trestle at the rear of No.7 reservoir doesn't appear. It
also looks like the Delaware Lackawanna & Western was the railroad
that serviced the Dunmore area, at least at that time.

A few years ago, I remember the Gould Battery plant was serviced by
the railroad, and thought they got the cars there via the trestle at
the rear of No. 7- do you know if that is true, and when the trestle
was abandoned?

http://historical.maptech.com/getImage.cfm?fname=scrn91se.jpg&state=PA

Dick S
Mt Cobb







--- In GravityRailroads@yahoogroups.com, "gto455cubes"
<golden6727@...> wrote:
>
>
>  Gentelmen , Its been a long time since we talked about the Gravity ,
> I havent had much time so far this summer to get out and explore ,
> been kinda hot , anyway I thought I would explain about E&WV RR , I
> have gotten a few inquires about the E&WV that it did not cross the
> gorge near the # 7 reservoir here in Dunmore till the early 1900's .
> Not so
>
>  It crossed about the time the E&WV track was completed in late 1883
> early 1884 , now remember the Gravity and the E&WV RR ran in
> operation for a little over a year side by side with each other
> untill Dec of 1885 when the Gravity was abandoned all together . So
> some of you are scratching your heads wondering why the E&WV crossed
> the Roaring Brook , what and why would they need to come over on this
> side of the Roaring Brook , the answer is the same reason that kept
> the Gravity busy , COAL yes coal from the mines and to service the
> various Coal Breakers in Dunmore , the Breakers in quetion were the
> Roaring Brook Breaker on Meade St. later to be known as Spencers
> Breaker , the # 1 Breaker which was PCC owned and operated , the
> Gypsie Grove Breakers also PCC plus a few other breakers that popped
> up over the next few years .
>
>  Two more Breakers may have been serviced for a few years after 1885
> by the E&WV though I have no proof ,  the breakers were in existence
> after 1885 , the # 6 & 1/2 breaker which was ony about 100 or 150
> yards from the Roaring Brook Breaker and the # 6 breaker which was
> located at the end off Helen St. . All 3 breakers were just about in
> a straight line from each other and the E&WV could have extended the
> tracks from the Roaring Brook Breaker to the # 6 Breaker , now I
> think this extended line to 6 and a half and then to 6 was only for a
> short time , 6 and half may have been the first to go with the # 6
> soon after , again I have no proof but the Breakers were there after
> 1885 this I know for sure .
>
>  Anyway I thought I would explain the reason for the E&WV RR to cross
> over to this side of the Roaring Brook . And again your imput is
> greatly appreciated .
>
>   Thanks for your time and attention ,
>
>           Tony Ranella Jr.
>
>          Historian on the PCC Gravity
>

Tony

Thanks for the offline E & WV clarification- appreciate it.

Regarding the No. 7 Gravity plane, about a year & a half ago I took a
couple trips to that area to see what was left of the plane, trying to
determine exactly where it crossed Drinker Street. But because of
extensive bulldozing in the area, the only thing I was able to
recognize was where the foot was. I believed it went up and passed to
the right of the big stone ledge, and did all my looking in that area.
However, recent eyeballing of a topo map leaves me thinking it might
have passed to the left of the ledge, and crossed the road somewhere
near where the house with the swimming pool is. When I get some time,
going to visit the area again to try and ferret it out.

Would appreciate any input from you or anyone else as to where it
crossed Drinker Street.

Dick S
Mt Cobb

Here is an aerial photo that is my best guess at where Plane 7 was.  You can see the curve in the foot of the plane as depicted in some of the historical photos.

http://f10.putfile.com/main/8/22707320957.jpg

--- In GravityRailroads@yahoogroups.com, "rshertza" <rshertza@...> wrote:
>
> Tony
>
> Thanks for the offline E & WV clarification- appreciate it.
>
> Regarding the No. 7 Gravity plane, about a year & a half ago I took a
> couple trips to that area to see what was left of the plane, trying to
> determine exactly where it crossed Drinker Street. But because of
> extensive bulldozing in the area, the only thing I was able to
> recognize was where the foot was. I believed it went up and passed to
> the right of the big stone ledge, and did all my looking in that area.
> However, recent eyeballing of a topo map leaves me thinking it might
> have passed to the left of the ledge, and crossed the road somewhere
> near where the house with the swimming pool is. When I get some time,
> going to visit the area again to try and ferret it out.
>
> Would appreciate any input from you or anyone else as to where it
> crossed Drinker Street.
>
> Dick S
> Mt Cobb
>

Oops...

http://www.putfile.com/pic.php?img=3211382

--- In GravityRailroads@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff" <BradPL@...> wrote:
>
>
> Here is an aerial photo that is my best guess at where Plane 7 was. You
> can see the curve in the foot of the plane as depicted in some of the
> historical photos.
>
>
> --- In GravityRailroads@yahoogroups.com, "rshertza" rshertza@
> wrote:
> >
> > Tony
> >
> > Thanks for the offline E & WV clarification- appreciate it.
> >
> > Regarding the No. 7 Gravity plane, about a year & a half ago I took a
> > couple trips to that area to see what was left of the plane, trying to
> > determine exactly where it crossed Drinker Street. But because of
> > extensive bulldozing in the area, the only thing I was able to
> > recognize was where the foot was. I believed it went up and passed to
> > the right of the big stone ledge, and did all my looking in that area.
> > However, recent eyeballing of a topo map leaves me thinking it might
> > have passed to the left of the ledge, and crossed the road somewhere
> > near where the house with the swimming pool is. When I get some time,
> > going to visit the area again to try and ferret it out.
> >
> > Would appreciate any input from you or anyone else as to where it
> > crossed Drinker Street.
> >
> > Dick S
> > Mt Cobb
> >
>

Gentlemen

Some comments regarding your Plane 7 input-

Tony, I got one of your jpg's, the drinker7 jpg (its only 50k, should
have received it, I'll have to change my internet provider), what
strikes me is how high the plane is built up, looks like the berm it
sits on is about 40 feet off the ground.

I was always under the impression the plane coming from the Gypsy
Grove Colliery, intersecting the level between 7 & 8, was what is
presently the road that goes to the land fill, which begins at the
stop sign in front of the Holliday Inn (close to the historical
marker). Prior to the construction of 380 & the Holliday Inn, I
remember a scrap yard being on the Holliday Inn site, and thought No.
8 ran up the mountain just to the left (or was it through) the junk yard?

If that is in fact where 8 ran, then the route shown of Jeff's excellent
aerial might not show the correct route. I never remember seeing any
remains of a plane in the area the aerial is showing. However, I do
remember a coal dust road by/through the scrap yard.

What always puzzled me was I never remember seeing any No.8 pump house
foundation where you would think it should logically be (I once
remember someone making a comment No. 8 was water powered?).

More later.

Thanks

Dick S
Mt Cobb

Hi Dick S. and the rest of the group.

The location of the PCC Gravity Railroad in the picture is extremely
accurate.
For years, many of us incorrectly believed that plane 8 was behind the
motel.  There used to be (still is?) a roadside sign across the street
indicating the incorrect location, that led to the mixup.  The old
road which strongly resembled a plane, was probably constructed by the
water company for access to the supply line which did run along the
gravity ROW for a significant distance.

Unless anyone has updated information, both 7 and 8 were water powered
from the Dunmore Reservoir for at least a portion of their existance.

I can't wait for some nice aerial, high resolution photographs of the
area.

Tom

--- In GravityRailroads@yahoogroups.com, "rshertza" <rshertza@...> wrote:
>
> Gentlemen
>
> Some comments regarding your Plane 7 input-
>
> Tony, I got one of your jpg's, the drinker7 jpg (its only 50k, should
> have received it, I'll have to change my internet provider), what
> strikes me is how high the plane is built up, looks like the berm it
> sits on is about 40 feet off the ground.
>
> I was always under the impression the plane coming from the Gypsy
> Grove Colliery, intersecting the level between 7 & 8, was what is
> presently the road that goes to the land fill, which begins at the
> stop sign in front of the Holliday Inn (close to the historical
> marker). Prior to the construction of 380 & the Holliday Inn, I
> remember a scrap yard being on the Holliday Inn site, and thought No.
> 8 ran up the mountain just to the left (or was it through) the junk
yard?
>
> If that is in fact where 8 ran, then the route shown of Jeff's excellent
> aerial might not show the correct route. I never remember seeing any
> remains of a plane in the area the aerial is showing. However, I do
> remember a coal dust road by/through the scrap yard.
>
> What always puzzled me was I never remember seeing any No.8 pump house
> foundation where you would think it should logically be (I once
> remember someone making a comment No. 8 was water powered?).
>
> More later.
>
> Thanks
>
> Dick S
> Mt Cobb
>

I determined the  location of Plane #7 through a combination of the 1873 D.G. Beers maps, the historical USGS quads, recent topo quads, and aerial photography.  I'll try to post some of those overlays for y'all to take a look at.

I've been trying to tie down the locations of the planes that fed in between #7 and #8 as are depicted in the photo Mr. Ranella posted.  The key to getting a good bead on that area is to get to the library and take a look at the early aerial photography (if it exists) that predates the construction of I-380.  Next time I'm in town I'll try to get my hands on those images.

Could one of the Gypsie Grove planes be the one you speak of, Tom?

Also, a very short segment of the #8 Plane still exists above the I-380 cut and below the fill from the recent Tigue Street ramp construction.  It's rather unremarkable and you probably wouldn't even know you were on it without a GPS.

--- In GravityRailroads@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas K. Gibson" <tgibson@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Dick S. and the rest of the group.
>
> The location of the PCC Gravity Railroad in the picture is extremely
> accurate.
> For years, many of us incorrectly believed that plane 8 was behind the
> motel. There used to be (still is?) a roadside sign across the street
> indicating the incorrect location, that led to the mixup. The old
> road which strongly resembled a plane, was probably constructed by the
> water company for access to the supply line which did run along the
> gravity ROW for a significant distance.
>
> Unless anyone has updated information, both 7 and 8 were water powered
> from the Dunmore Reservoir for at least a portion of their existance.
>
> I can't wait for some nice aerial, high resolution photographs of the
> area.
>
> Tom
>
> --- In GravityRailroads@yahoogroups.com, "rshertza" rshertza@ wrote:
> >
> > Gentlemen
> >
> > Some comments regarding your Plane 7 input-
> >
> > Tony, I got one of your jpg's, the drinker7 jpg (its only 50k, should
> > have received it, I'll have to change my internet provider), what
> > strikes me is how high the plane is built up, looks like the berm it
> > sits on is about 40 feet off the ground.
> >
> > I was always under the impression the plane coming from the Gypsy
> > Grove Colliery, intersecting the level between 7 & 8, was what is
> > presently the road that goes to the land fill, which begins at the
> > stop sign in front of the Holliday Inn (close to the historical
> > marker). Prior to the construction of 380 & the Holliday Inn, I
> > remember a scrap yard being on the Holliday Inn site, and thought No.
> > 8 ran up the mountain just to the left (or was it through) the junk
> yard?
> >
> > If that is in fact where 8 ran, then the route shown of Jeff's excellent
> > aerial might not show the correct route. I never remember seeing any
> > remains of a plane in the area the aerial is showing. However, I do
> > remember a coal dust road by/through the scrap yard.
> >
> > What always puzzled me was I never remember seeing any No.8 pump house
> > foundation where you would think it should logically be (I once
> > remember someone making a comment No. 8 was water powered?).
> >
> > More later.
> >
> > Thanks
> >
> > Dick S
> > Mt Cobb
> >
>

Hi Tony and the group,

That is what I was told by Ed Steers as we explored the PCC 25 years ago.
I suspect he surmised by the construction and location of the dams and
abundant water supply in the area.  Is he incorrect?  It would
certainly appear that they easily could have been water powered at
some time in their existance as were many others on the line.  I have
only recently learned that the good doctor was incorrect in a few of
his other observations, but I believe generally that his knowledge was
very good.

I hope this helps.

Tom

--- In GravityRailroads@yahoogroups.com, golden6727@... wrote:
>
> Tom ,  With all do respect where did you get the info that 7 and  8
were
> water powered at one time , this is very interesting .
>
>     Tony Ranella Jr.
>
>   Dunmore , Pa.
>

Gentlemen

Based on Jeff's Aerial and information, I took a walk to the 7F
location. As shown on the Aerial, this data point locates the #7 Head
right next to the back yard of a house. I was surprised to find an old
foundation there, and immediately thought it was the remains of the #7
pump house.

However, I became a bit skeptical- the foundation was oriented about
45 degrees from what it should be to accommodate the depicted approach
of the plane. Also, there is a rock formation close by on the south
side that is higher than the foundation; there is no trace of these
rocks in the Hensel photo. (It furstrates me that I can't match any of
the terrain at the 7F location to that what is shown in the Hensel
photo). The Aerial also shows the #7/#8 level to be only about 100
yards long. Only 380 construction remains at the 8F location.

#8 Plane- the right edge of the Aerial shows the plane on the East
side of 380. Jeff's comment that a segment still existed there
prompted me to stroll the area. I looked at that segment, and it does
look to me to be the McCoy, as there was some coal there. It also
crosses another old ROW which skirts the base of the fill, which I
think is the old trolley line that went to Moosic Lake.

Dick S
Mt Cobb

Tony

Thanks for the interesting history insight.

Question for you regarding the "#2 Reservoir on the back side of #9
Incline"- this URL
(http://mapper1.acme.com/?lat=41.40897&long=-75.587978&scale=9&theme=Image&width\
=8&height=6&dot=N)
shows #9 Plane with its foot beginning just to the right of the fill.
A bit to the north is a black spot that looks like water, is that the
reservoir?

Also, while looking at this aerial, it appears the head of #8 Plane
would need to end fairly close to the foot of #9 Plane because of the
hilly terrain in that area, and that the #8/#9 Level would also be
very short (Jeff, would love to see your data marks).

What puzzles me the most about the #8 Head is that, prior to the
construction, I never remember any pump house foundation or ash pile
anywhere around there. (Where did they go?)

Dick S
Mt Cobb

Wow.  Great narrative, Tony.  I'm going to work on trying to put placemarks for the places you spoke of.

Dan, the USGS topographic quads show the upper half of Plane 8 and Planes 9-11 where the "JEEP TRAIL" then cuts left toward the reservoir.

http://terraserver.homeadvisor.msn.com/Image.aspx?T=2&S=12&Z=18&X=562&Y=5730&W=3

The most recent quads predate the construction of the Tigue Street exit and the Lackawanna Valley Industrial Highway (I agree, Tony, an under-utilized misallocation of federal highway funds).  So they do show the pre-construction topography and the path of Plane 8.  Here's a photo standing on the fill directly above the original ROW looking down toward the foot of the plane.

http://www.putfile.com/pic.php?img=3239233

The only remaining portion of Plane 8 that I can discern is that small segment.

It seems to me the greatest damage to the Gravity has been done by highway construction.  The massive cuts and fills required to maintain grade through the rolling terrain have all but obliterated entire portions of the road.  I know they guys who design/construct these projects want to do the right thing but not too many people outside this group even know what the Gravity Railroad is.  Even some of us are unsure where portions are.  The main reason that Plane 8 got filled over was that neither the contractor nor PENNDOT knew where it was.  They thought it was further back in the woods.

Jeff

--- In GravityRailroads@yahoogroups.com, "rshertza" <rshertza@...> wrote:
>
> Tony
>
> Thanks for the interesting history insight.
>
> Question for you regarding the "#2 Reservoir on the back side of #9
> Incline"- this URL
> (http://mapper1.acme.com/?lat=41.40897&long=-75.587978&scale=9&theme=Image&width=8&height=6&dot=N)
> shows #9 Plane with its foot beginning just to the right of the fill.
> A bit to the north is a black spot that looks like water, is that the
> reservoir?
>
> Also, while looking at this aerial, it appears the head of #8 Plane
> would need to end fairly close to the foot of #9 Plane because of the
> hilly terrain in that area, and that the #8/#9 Level would also be
> very short (Jeff, would love to see your data marks).
>
> What puzzles me the most about the #8 Head is that, prior to the
> construction, I never remember any pump house foundation or ash pile
> anywhere around there. (Where did they go?)
>
> Dick S
> Mt Cobb
>

Tony

Thanks for the information. Next time I'm in the area I'll have to take a
walk to the #2 reservoir

I hunted the area of #8 thru #11 since the early 60's, but never payed much
attention to what was there, as I just recently became interested in the
Gravity. Now I'm kicking myself.

Attached are two pictures I thought the members might find interesting-

One shows a shot taken from the front of the #8 remaining segment looking
toward the foot (which originated on the other side of the 380 enterance
ramp). Behind the shot is what remains of the segment, about 50 ft.

The other shows the 7F point in Jeff's overlay, that you described as the
remains of the Radio Station. The footer of what appears to be the antenna
and its orientation to the house at the 7F point can be seen.

Dick S
Mt Cobb

Gentlemen

Re the Hensel photo, the one I'm looking at is not of good quality.
However, I have the following comments:

I assume the roof that can be seen below #7 Head (by the man) covers
the tunnel entrance where the Drinker Turnpike passes.

Just to the right of the Gypsy Grove Pump House Smokestack is what
appears to be coal cars on top of a trestle, and that the trestle is
at an incline, going up to the left.

It doesn't look like the cars are exiting from Gypsy Grove Head
because they're too high, but rather they exited from the #7 Head and
are beginning their assent up #8 Plane?

If they are going up #8, #8 is shown to be on this side (the wrong
side) of the peak just beyond it, which slopes down to the left. Also,
#8 would then have a trestle at its foot.

If this is true, the route of #8 shown at
(http://www.putfile.com/pic.php?img=3211382), and what we believe to
be the remaining segment, might not be correct, as that takes it up
the far side of the peak. Also, if that really is the beginning of #8
shown in the Hensel photo, it looks like it makes a hell of a hard
left turn beyond the #7 Head, a lot sharper than what is shown on the
URL.

It may be concluded by what is shown in the photo, that what we think
to be accurate in the URL data, might not be correct.

Did #8 really go up the slope on the Holliday Inn side of the mountain
as is shown in the picture?

Please correct me if what I'm seeing in the photo is wrong.

Dick S
Mt Cobb

O.K.  I finally have some of my files together...  Here is the information I have to support the location of Planes 7 and 8:

Here is a portion of the 1873 D.G. Beers atlas of the Borough of Dunmore (page 57) that shows the planes in relation to the Drinker Turnpike and other roads/railroads of the period.  North is oriented between 10 and 11 o'clock.
http://www.putfile.com/pic.php?img=3282840

Here is one of the insets from the LeRoy map that shows the location of the planes as well.
http://www.putfile.com/pic.php?img=3282827

Here is the 1891 USGS topographic map.  I know it doesn't show the location of the PCC Gravity lines but you can see a local hilltop where the head of Plane 7 had existed.
http://www.putfile.com/pic.php?img=3282878

Here again is the link to the modern aerial photography and my interpretation of the location of the alignment.
http://www.putfile.com/pic.php?img=3211382

Here is the stereoscopic Hensel photo that shows the head of Plane 7.  I think I can see what you're referring to, Dick, as far as cars on a trestle but it isn't very clear.  If indeed they are cars, I'm thinking they're exiting the engine house and heading toward the foot of Plane 8.
http://www.putfile.com/pic.php?img=3282958

I am working on the Gypsy (Gypsie) Grove Colliery feeder planes but nearly the entire area they existed on has been obliterated by the I-380 construction.  Dick, I think the planes you referred to earlier may have been the feeder planes from the Gipsy Grove Colliery.  Even the D.G. Beers maps don't show the location of those planes unfortunately.  I'll keep you guys posted.

Jeff

--- In GravityRailroads@yahoogroups.com, "rshertza" <rshertza@...> wrote:
>
> Gentlemen
>
> Re the Hensel photo, the one I'm looking at is not of good quality.
> However, I have the following comments:
>
> I assume the roof that can be seen below #7 Head (by the man) covers
> the tunnel entrance where the Drinker Turnpike passes.
>
> Just to the right of the Gypsy Grove Pump House Smokestack is what
> appears to be coal cars on top of a trestle, and that the trestle is
> at an incline, going up to the left.
>
> It doesn't look like the cars are exiting from Gypsy Grove Head
> because they're too high, but rather they exited from the #7 Head and
> are beginning their assent up #8 Plane?
>
> If they are going up #8, #8 is shown to be on this side (the wrong
> side) of the peak just beyond it, which slopes down to the left. Also,
> #8 would then have a trestle at its foot.
>
> If this is true, the route of #8 shown at
> (http://www.putfile.com/pic.php?img=3211382), and what we believe to
> be the remaining segment, might not be correct, as that takes it up
> the far side of the peak. Also, if that really is the beginning of #8
> shown in the Hensel photo, it looks like it makes a hell of a hard
> left turn beyond the #7 Head, a lot sharper than what is shown on the
> URL.
>
> It may be concluded by what is shown in the photo, that what we think
> to be accurate in the URL data, might not be correct.
>
> Did #8 really go up the slope on the Holliday Inn side of the mountain
> as is shown in the picture?
>
> Please correct me if what I'm seeing in the photo is wrong.
>
> Dick S
> Mt Cobb
>

Another view of the area in question...

http://www.putfile.com/pic.php?img=3283423

3D helps put it in perspective for me.

Jeff

--- In GravityRailroads@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff" <BradPL@...> wrote:
>
>
> O.K. I finally have some of my files together... Here is the
> information I have to support the location of Planes 7 and 8:
>