Hi all,

Just a note on the practice of quotation in Forum postings. There is a subtle difference between emails between individuals, and Forum postings that are broadcasted to all members.

In a personal email to individuals (or perhaps to a small group of addressees), we tend to keep the entire “conversation” intact. This is to facilitate the discussion, as well as when we forward the email to someone new who was not on the address list previously.

In a Forum posting, the principle is mass communications, and the assumption is that those who are interested would be following the “conversation”, and those who are not interested in the conversation do not like to be spammed with a long toilet-paper-like roll of previous conversations. Thus in Forum postings, the usual practice is to delete the previous email altogether, and only quote the portion of the conversation that you want to respond to, or quote only the portion necessary to see the context of your response. (In fact, in some ‘moderated forums’, one reason for having the moderation in place is to actually delete the entire previous email if the person has not done so. This is especially necessary in very active forums where you can get tens of messages (or more) a day. In those cases, you really do not want long toilet-paper rolls of previous emails. *grin*

So what happens when a new person wants follow the conversation, and joins in the conversation mid-way? Well, if you visit the Forum website, you can click on “Thread Discussion”, and you will see the postings stacked in a directory-tree hierarchy. It will be very easy to follow any thread as they are sorted in order. (Try it and you will see the unnecessary duplication of previous emails in “threaded messages”.)

So, my request to members is to delete the previous emails (especially the advertisement that comes along at the bottom of every posting), and where necessary, just quote the relevant portion. Secondly, it is a good practice to start a new topic for each new issue. Try not to raise more than one issue in one posting; separate them into two or more emails. That way, it makes it much easier to follow. Thirdly, should the topic change mid-way through the discussion, it is a good habit to change the title of the email as well.

Finally, do not be daunted by the above. *smile* They are not rules, but good practices. Do come in, post a contribution and enjoy yourself. Along the way, these habits will become second nature.

Cheers,

William  

Dear Irene,

Lovely to hear you here  .... by the way folks ... Irene is a great practitioner
of
LO ... having put her heart in ... into designing posters on the LO work and
rolling out many ideas whilst she was at NACLI and now with her work at STB
in the area of OD ... just to introduce her ...

You wrote (taking William's advice):

"I feel that it'll be much more powerful that instead of just merely jumping
straight into decision making tools, an understanding of systems thinking as
background to problem solving before the decision making tools are
introduced will have higher leverage. What's your take and any
recommendations on good trainers who can do both?"

You are right ... especially if the team is working with difficult and complex
issues ... (that whatever we try to do ... the problem does not go away) ....
understanding the principles, laws and tools of systems thinking helps to
provide "sense" / explain the reasons of the complexity and also points what
we are doing that is making the problems worse ... and makes any decision-
making tool much more rigorous ... oh by the way ... also check up the work
by Chris Argyris too (it is great!) ... how the conversations we take or do not
take on adds to the complexity ...

Trainers ... try Jacob ... he is now co-training with Seok Lin on the year-long
programme at IPAM ...  others ... any more suggestions?

Thanks for raising this ... Sheila

--- In LOPN@yahoogroups.com, Irene CHIA <Irene_chia@s...> wrote:
> Hi Rafidah- You may also want to try the Levels of Perspectives model
> which goes down well with many participants at LO workshop.  This is
> another tool for looking at systems thinking.
>
> Hi Sheila - Tap on your expertise, my friend is looking at some tools for
> decision making for the staff while exposing systems thinking only for the
> senior team.  However, I feel that it'll be much more powerful that
> instead of just merely jumping straight into decision making tools, an
> understanding of systems thinking as background to problem solving before
> the decision making tools are introduced will have higher leverage. What's
> your take and any recommendations on good trainers who can do both?
>
> Others - let's get the ball rolling...

> "Sheila Damodaran" <dmsl@p...>
> 03/11/2005 07:50 PM
> Please respond to LOPN
>
>         To:     LOPN@yahoogroups.com
>         cc:
>         Subject:        [LOPN] Re: Cracking "Systems Archetypes"!
>
>
>
> Dear Rafidah,
>
> If I may add on ... some of the things am seeing with using Systems
> Thinking
> at the workplace ... is:
>
> @ There is often more than one archetype "at play" in most issues ... in
> fact,
> we seem to best uncover archetypes in teams ... and these teams answer
> one question ... "Why do we have the complexities that we see?"  and
> particularly use real stories / incidents / events over time (see dialogue
> can
> be great here) to look for "clues" that sound like the archetype
>
> @ To find these clues ... recognise that every archetype has a unique
> mental
> model .. e.g. the MM behind FtB is "Time is money and neither time nor
> money
> should be wasted so the first answer (quick fix) must be the right answer"
> ...
> these MMs come through in the stories, and
>
> @ When different teams look at various aspects from multiple angles, we
> are
> often are able to pull out "a string" of archetypes ... and therefore
> unravel the
> complexity involved ... now isn't that fascinating?
>
> So the trick to using Systems Archetypes seems to be ....
> - first accepting there is more than one archetype in any one issue
> - encourage to have a team and/or more than one team ... with the specific
>
> intent of "focussing" on understanding complexities to bring out as many
> as
> possible ...
> - using "stories' to look for clues (using mental models as a linkway)
>
> And simply, sometimes, we need more than one view needs to be
expressed
> to bring an archetype out!
>
> Hope this helps ... this is (really) to start the ball rolling ....
>
> Warm regards
> Sheila
>
> --- In LOPN@yahoogroups.com, "Sheila Damodaran" <dmsl@p...> wrote:
> >
> > Dear Rafidah,
> >
> > Didn't realise you had an avid interest in Systems Thinking ...  That's
> really
> > great!  Anybody care to add-on?  What have you noticed?  Why so? Know
> > something someone has tried to crack "systems archetypes" at the
> > workplace?
> >
> > Well, if anyone knows of others who might help, would you mind arranging
> to
> > invite them on board here on this topic?  Either drop us a mail to
> myself or
> > William and we would be happy to send them an invite ...
> >
> > BTW .... do look out for another note ...
> >
> > Warm regards
> > Sheila
> >
> > --- In LOPN@yahoogroups.com, Rafidah SUPARMAN
> > <rafidah_suparman@p...> wrote:
> > > Hi,
> > >
> > >       I am Rafidah from Prisons Dept.  I have benefitted from the LOPN
> > > through the sharing by the practitioners.  I have also invited others
> to
> > > attend some of the activiities organised by the LOPN.  I want to take
> this
> > > opportunity to thank Sheila and others who have made the LOPN a
> > successful
> > > platform for sharing.
> > >
> > > 2.    Systems Thinking is fascinating.  However,  I do face some
> problems
> > > in expressing some daily issues using the loop diagrams.  Not sure
> whether
> > > it is more of skills or discipline in using it.  Good to find out from
> > > others on how they have overcome the difficulty in using ST.
> > >
> > > 3.    Have a great weekend!
> > >
> > > Regards.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >                       "Sheila
> >
> > >                       Damodaran"               To:
> > LOPN@yahoogroups.com
> > >                       <dmsl@p...
> > cc:
> > >                       t.sg>                    Subject: [LOPN] Re:
> Members' Database
> in
> > eGroup / Systems Archetypes
> >
> >
> >
> > >                       02-03-05
> > 01:32
> > >
> > AM
> > >                       Please
> > respond
> > >                       to
> > LOPN
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Dear all,
> > >
> > > Thanks William for taking this on ... this is great and it was really
> > > lovely seeing
> > > you at DMG today.
> > >
> > > So what do the rest think?  What kinds of information would you like
> > > to see
> > > about others / things we might do, that might help us "open up
> > > conversations,
> > > especially with someone new on the group'?  E.g. of data that I
> > > thought might
> > > be helpful were ....
> > >
> > > Please check the areas that are of most interest to you.
> > > What areas/practices/ideas are you most excited about now?
> > > How can our network / egroup serve you better and be more valuable to
> > > you?
> > >
> > > What do you think?  Would these help?  What else?
> > >
> > >
> > > BTW just to introduce William, he has been an early reader of Peter's
> > > Fifth
> > > Discipline, but really found it possible to attend a formal workshop
> > > when DMG
> > > began to host the LOPN workshops since last year.  Am so happy to
see
> > > him
> > > lead this effort with the eGroup project ....
> > >
> > > An avid pursuer of the ideas of Systems Thinking, he has experienced
> > > his fair
> > > share of difficulties in surfacing archetypes.  Have others faced it
> > > too?  Why
> > > so?  What do you think we might do to help deal with the difficulty?
> > > Penny for
> > > your thoughts?
> > >
> > >
> > > Warm regards
> > > Sheila
> > >
> > > --- In LOPN@yahoogroups.com, "William Tan" <wbktan@s...> wrote:
> > > > Hi Sheila and everybody here,
> > > >
> > > > Sheila wrote:
> > > > > Develop a member directory / database? ... William ...
> > > > > I can't think of someone better than you ... would you?
> > > >
> > > > Sure... I have done that for other eGroups, and would not mind
> > > doing so
> > > > for LOPN eGroup.  Just need to ensure that members do not object to
> > > the
> > > > particulars being shared, and that when new members are asked for
> > > their
> > > > particulars, they are informed that these particulars will be
> > > included
> > > > in a database and shared.
> > > >
> > > > Currently, new members are asked for the following information when
> > > they
> > > > join:
> > > > (1) Name
> > > > (2) Organisation/Company:
> > > > (3) Designation:
> > > > (4) Preferred email contact:
> > > > (5) Tel:
> > > > (6) HP (optional):
> > > > (7) How did you learn of LOPN (workshop, seminar, friend):
> > > > (Note: I will not include Point (7) in the database.)
> > > >
> > > > So I will add in a line to inform them that these information will
> > > be
> > > > shared with all members.
> > > >
> > > > And members currently in here, would you mind send a private email
> > > to me
> > > > (at wbktan@s...) with the above information (less point (7)?
> > > > So I can compile them and update in the eGroup's database?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Cheers,
> > > > William
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > "KNOWLEDGE IS IN THE EYE OF THE BEHOLDER!" ¡¦often the
contributing
> > person
> > > has no idea he or she has ¡°it¡± inside of him or her ¡¦ until
> somebody
> > > asks a question and helps in ¡°drawing it out¡±!  So ... start asking
> > > questions and see where it leads you to!
> > >
> > > "When we're not seeing what's right in front of your face -- that's
> the
> > > best place to hide something ..."
> > >
> > > Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
> "KNOWLEDGE IS IN THE EYE OF THE BEHOLDER!" ¡¦often the contributing
person
> has no idea he or she has ¡°it¡± inside of him or her ¡¦ until somebody
> asks a question and helps in ¡°drawing it out¡±!  So ... start asking
> questions and see where it leads you to!
>
> "When we're not seeing what's right in front of your face -- that's the
> best place to hide something ..."
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links

Dear all,

Today at the session ... there was a question ... can Servant Leadership truly
happen ... in a world that prides ... for organisation (and productivity and
tasks) first and people second (well ... that is, if the organisation is "nice")
...
thought it was a great question indeed!

What do all of you think?

SL struck me because of the following story ... and I quote ... "The idea of
THE SERVANT AS LEADER (for Robert Greenleaf the author of the idea) ...
came out of reading Herman Hesse's Journey to the East.  In this story we
see a band of men on a mythical journey, probably also Hesse's own
journey.  The central figure of the story is Leo who accompanies the party as
the servant who does their menial chores, but who also sustains them with
his spirit and his song.  He is a person of extraordinary presence.

All goes well until Leo disappears.  Then the group falls into disarray and the
journey is abandoned.  They cannot make it without the servant Leo.

The narrator, one of the party, after some years of wandering finds Leo and is
taken into the Order that had sponsored the journey.  There he discovers that
Leo, whom he had known first as servant, was in fact the titular head of the
Order, its guiding spirit, a great and noble leader" (of course Robert goes on
to describe ten qualities of such a leader ... very inspiring ...!).

What struck me as I share this story again ... was in order for one to become
a Servant Leader ... perhaps ... it starts with being served as one ... and
seeing what that does for oneself ... and the experience of going through that
was more likely to make it possible or be willing in turn to lead others ... as
Servant Leaders ... (like little reinforcing loops ... something which the team
today shared was important)

My question is ... could it be because we have not had such experiences ...
that might make the reality of such an idea seem .... next to impossible ...?
what else might be making it hard to practice such a work ...?

.... very curious .... What might make a difference?
(would really like to hear the reflections of those who might have read his
work ... or who were there today)

Warm regards,
Sheila

Dear Rafidah,

If I may add on ... some of the things am seeing with using Systems Thinking
at the workplace ... is:

@ There is often more than one archetype "at play" in most issues ... in fact,
we seem to best uncover archetypes in teams ... and these teams answer
one question ... "Why do we have the complexities that we see?"  and
particularly use real stories / incidents / events over time (see dialogue can
be great here) to look for "clues" that sound like the archetype

@ To find these clues ... recognise that every archetype has a unique mental
model .. e.g. the MM behind FtB is "Time is money and neither time nor money
should be wasted so the first answer (quick fix) must be the right answer" ...
these MMs come through in the stories, and

@ When different teams look at various aspects from multiple angles, we are
often are able to pull out "a string" of archetypes ... and therefore unravel
the
complexity involved ... now isn't that fascinating?

So the trick to using Systems Archetypes seems to be ....
- first accepting there is more than one archetype in any one issue
- encourage to have a team and/or more than one team ... with the specific
intent of "focussing" on understanding complexities to bring out as many as
possible ...
- using "stories' to look for clues (using mental models as a linkway)

And simply, sometimes, we need more than one view needs to be expressed
to bring an archetype out!

Hope this helps ... this is (really) to start the ball rolling ....

Warm regards
Sheila

--- In LOPN@yahoogroups.com, "Sheila Damodaran" <dmsl@p...> wrote:
>
> Dear Rafidah,
>
> Didn't realise you had an avid interest in Systems Thinking ...  That's really
> great!  Anybody care to add-on?  What have you noticed?  Why so? Know
> something someone has tried to crack "systems archetypes" at the
> workplace?
>
> Well, if anyone knows of others who might help, would you mind arranging to
> invite them on board here on this topic?  Either drop us a mail to myself or
> William and we would be happy to send them an invite ...
>
> BTW .... do look out for another note ...
>
> Warm regards
> Sheila
>
> --- In LOPN@yahoogroups.com, Rafidah SUPARMAN
> <rafidah_suparman@p...> wrote:
> > Hi,
> >
> >       I am Rafidah from Prisons Dept.  I have benefitted from the LOPN
> > through the sharing by the practitioners.  I have also invited others to
> > attend some of the activiities organised by the LOPN.  I want to take this
> > opportunity to thank Sheila and others who have made the LOPN a
> successful
> > platform for sharing.
> >
> > 2.    Systems Thinking is fascinating.  However,  I do face some problems
> > in expressing some daily issues using the loop diagrams.  Not sure
whether
> > it is more of skills or discipline in using it.  Good to find out from
> > others on how they have overcome the difficulty in using ST.
> >
> > 3.    Have a great weekend!
> >
> > Regards.
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>                       "Sheila
>
> >                       Damodaran"               To:
> LOPN@yahoogroups.com
> >                       <dmsl@p...
> cc:
> >                       t.sg>                    Subject: [LOPN] Re: Members'
Database
in
> eGroup / Systems Archetypes
>
>
>
> >                       02-03-05
> 01:32
> >
> AM
> >                       Please
> respond
> >                       to
> LOPN
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Dear all,
> >
> > Thanks William for taking this on ... this is great and it was really
> > lovely seeing
> > you at DMG today.
> >
> > So what do the rest think?  What kinds of information would you like
> > to see
> > about others / things we might do, that might help us "open up
> > conversations,
> > especially with someone new on the group'?  E.g. of data that I
> > thought might
> > be helpful were ....
> >
> > Please check the areas that are of most interest to you.
> > What areas/practices/ideas are you most excited about now?
> > How can our network / egroup serve you better and be more valuable to
> > you?
> >
> > What do you think?  Would these help?  What else?
> >
> >
> > BTW just to introduce William, he has been an early reader of Peter's
> > Fifth
> > Discipline, but really found it possible to attend a formal workshop
> > when DMG
> > began to host the LOPN workshops since last year.  Am so happy to see
> > him
> > lead this effort with the eGroup project ....
> >
> > An avid pursuer of the ideas of Systems Thinking, he has experienced
> > his fair
> > share of difficulties in surfacing archetypes.  Have others faced it
> > too?  Why
> > so?  What do you think we might do to help deal with the difficulty?
> > Penny for
> > your thoughts?
> >
> >
> > Warm regards
> > Sheila
> >
> > --- In LOPN@yahoogroups.com, "William Tan" <wbktan@s...> wrote:
> > > Hi Sheila and everybody here,
> > >
> > > Sheila wrote:
> > > > Develop a member directory / database? ... William ...
> > > > I can't think of someone better than you ... would you?
> > >
> > > Sure... I have done that for other eGroups, and would not mind
> > doing so
> > > for LOPN eGroup.  Just need to ensure that members do not object to
> > the
> > > particulars being shared, and that when new members are asked for
> > their
> > > particulars, they are informed that these particulars will be
> > included
> > > in a database and shared.
> > >
> > > Currently, new members are asked for the following information when
> > they
> > > join:
> > > (1) Name
> > > (2) Organisation/Company:
> > > (3) Designation:
> > > (4) Preferred email contact:
> > > (5) Tel:
> > > (6) HP (optional):
> > > (7) How did you learn of LOPN (workshop, seminar, friend):
> > > (Note: I will not include Point (7) in the database.)
> > >
> > > So I will add in a line to inform them that these information will
> > be
> > > shared with all members.
> > >
> > > And members currently in here, would you mind send a private email
> > to me
> > > (at wbktan@s...) with the above information (less point (7)?
> > > So I can compile them and update in the eGroup's database?
> > >
> > >
> > > Cheers,
> > > William
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > "KNOWLEDGE IS IN THE EYE OF THE BEHOLDER!" ¡¦often the contributing
> person
> > has no idea he or she has ¡°it¡± inside of him or her ¡¦ until somebody
> > asks a question and helps in ¡°drawing it out¡±!  So ... start asking
> > questions and see where it leads you to!
> >
> > "When we're not seeing what's right in front of your face -- that's the
> > best place to hide something ..."
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links

Dear all,

Recently through Joey of HK (some of you might have met him, when he
co-
facilitated a workshop with me in Dec at the LOPN) ... I was
introduced to the
works of Ken Wilber.

Today, I chanced across this link of someone who knows both Peter
Senge
and Ken Wilber and he draws a link between their works ... if nothing
else, I
just loved the way he was speaking and sharing 'from his heart' ...
beautiful
way of speaking ...
http://www.leadcoach.com/archives/interview/fred_kofman.html.  I hope
you
like the link ... left quotes on the key connections here ...

Has anyone here heard of him?  or his works ... We have invited a
Bala to join
the eGroup (and I hope he joins soon), whom I know is very keen to
lead a
study circle on his works ...  If anyone has heard of this work or
knows of
others ... and would like to meet other Wilber readers ...would you
drop a line
here?

Warm regards and wishes for a pleasant weekend ahead,
Sheila





Quote by Fred Kofman:  "I have done a lot of work with Peter Senge on
a
practical level. He is masterful. But when I was working with Peter I
didn¡¯t
have an experience of those around Peter and me having a depth of
grounding
in a very philosophically congruent way. We were working on the
surface of
profound spiritual and philosophical principles, but those principles
were
implicit, rather than explicit in our work ...

Both Peter Senge and Ken Wilber are on the Advisory Board of
Axialent. Peter
is going to be our main resource on development of the corporate
programs.
Ken is our main advisor on the development of personal development
programs ...

... A technical approach that focuses on the machine as in a time and
motion
study is -- as Ken would say -- right in part; but is also wrong in
forgetting a
significant part of the problem. So I found that Ken¡¯s
perspective was a very
good philosophical model to justify what I had been doing with Peter
...

... There I was focusing on personal mastery and the consciousness of
the
individual involved, his/her feelings, his/her ability to
communicate, to resolve
problems by sharing meaning.  Not communication in the computer-type
sense of hearing the word that I say to convey information to you,
but
communication where an I and a Thou are creating and sharing meaning.
  By
doing that, we are also providing meaning for our lives. I had been
doing that
from the early days, but I did not have a philosophical
infrastructure to ground
it and to argue for it in a sound philosophical way.  That solid
philosophical
foundation is what I found in Ken¡¯s integral model."

Dear Rafidah,

Didn't realise you had an avid interest in Systems Thinking ...  That's really
great!  Anybody care to add-on?  What have you noticed?  Why so? Know
something someone has tried to crack "systems archetypes" at the
workplace?

Well, if anyone knows of others who might help, would you mind arranging to
invite them on board here on this topic?  Either drop us a mail to myself or
William and we would be happy to send them an invite ...

BTW .... do look out for another note ...

Warm regards
Sheila

--- In LOPN@yahoogroups.com, Rafidah SUPARMAN
<rafidah_suparman@p...> wrote:
> Hi,
>
>       I am Rafidah from Prisons Dept.  I have benefitted from the LOPN
> through the sharing by the practitioners.  I have also invited others to
> attend some of the activiities organised by the LOPN.  I want to take this
> opportunity to thank Sheila and others who have made the LOPN a
successful
> platform for sharing.
>
> 2.    Systems Thinking is fascinating.  However,  I do face some problems
> in expressing some daily issues using the loop diagrams.  Not sure whether
> it is more of skills or discipline in using it.  Good to find out from
> others on how they have overcome the difficulty in using ST.
>
> 3.    Have a great weekend!
>
> Regards.
>
>
>
>

>                       "Sheila

>                       Damodaran"               To:
LOPN@yahoogroups.com
>                       <dmsl@p...
cc:
>                       t.sg>                    Subject: [LOPN] Re: Members'
Database in
eGroup / Systems Archetypes
>

>                       02-03-05
01:32
>
AM
>                       Please
respond
>                       to
LOPN
>

>

>
>
>
>
>
> Dear all,
>
> Thanks William for taking this on ... this is great and it was really
> lovely seeing
> you at DMG today.
>
> So what do the rest think?  What kinds of information would you like
> to see
> about others / things we might do, that might help us "open up
> conversations,
> especially with someone new on the group'?  E.g. of data that I
> thought might
> be helpful were ....
>
> Please check the areas that are of most interest to you.
> What areas/practices/ideas are you most excited about now?
> How can our network / egroup serve you better and be more valuable to
> you?
>
> What do you think?  Would these help?  What else?
>
>
> BTW just to introduce William, he has been an early reader of Peter's
> Fifth
> Discipline, but really found it possible to attend a formal workshop
> when DMG
> began to host the LOPN workshops since last year.  Am so happy to see
> him
> lead this effort with the eGroup project ....
>
> An avid pursuer of the ideas of Systems Thinking, he has experienced
> his fair
> share of difficulties in surfacing archetypes.  Have others faced it
> too?  Why
> so?  What do you think we might do to help deal with the difficulty?
> Penny for
> your thoughts?
>
>
> Warm regards
> Sheila
>
> --- In LOPN@yahoogroups.com, "William Tan" <wbktan@s...> wrote:
> > Hi Sheila and everybody here,
> >
> > Sheila wrote:
> > > Develop a member directory / database? ... William ...
> > > I can't think of someone better than you ... would you?
> >
> > Sure... I have done that for other eGroups, and would not mind
> doing so
> > for LOPN eGroup.  Just need to ensure that members do not object to
> the
> > particulars being shared, and that when new members are asked for
> their
> > particulars, they are informed that these particulars will be
> included
> > in a database and shared.
> >
> > Currently, new members are asked for the following information when
> they
> > join:
> > (1) Name
> > (2) Organisation/Company:
> > (3) Designation:
> > (4) Preferred email contact:
> > (5) Tel:
> > (6) HP (optional):
> > (7) How did you learn of LOPN (workshop, seminar, friend):
> > (Note: I will not include Point (7) in the database.)
> >
> > So I will add in a line to inform them that these information will
> be
> > shared with all members.
> >
> > And members currently in here, would you mind send a private email
> to me
> > (at wbktan@s...) with the above information (less point (7)?
> > So I can compile them and update in the eGroup's database?
> >
> >
> > Cheers,
> > William
>
>
>
>
>
>
> "KNOWLEDGE IS IN THE EYE OF THE BEHOLDER!" ¡¦often the contributing
person
> has no idea he or she has ¡°it¡± inside of him or her ¡¦ until somebody
> asks a question and helps in ¡°drawing it out¡±!  So ... start asking
> questions and see where it leads you to!
>
> "When we're not seeing what's right in front of your face -- that's the
> best place to hide something ..."
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links

Hi all,

Thanks to those who have responded and provided me with your particulars.

I have updated the members’ database. To access the database, just click “Database” on the left menu bar. You must be in Yahoo Groups to access the database, and you would need a Yahoo ID to sign in.

For those who are not listed, please forward your particulars to me.

And for those who encounter problems signing up for a Yahoo ID. Just let me know.

Cheers,

William

Hi,

       I am Rafidah from Prisons Dept.  I have benefitted from the LOPN
through the sharing by the practitioners.  I have also invited others to
attend some of the activiities organised by the LOPN.  I want to take this
opportunity to thank Sheila and others who have made the LOPN a successful
platform for sharing.

2.    Systems Thinking is fascinating.  However,  I do face some problems
in expressing some daily issues using the loop diagrams.  Not sure whether
it is more of skills or discipline in using it.  Good to find out from
others on how they have overcome the difficulty in using ST.

3.    Have a great weekend!

Regards.




                       "Sheila
                       Damodaran"               To:      LOPN@yahoogroups.com
                       <dmsl@...         cc:
                       t.sg>                    Subject: [LOPN] Re: Members'
Database in eGroup / Systems Archetypes

                       02-03-05 01:32
                       AM
                       Please respond
                       to LOPN







Dear all,

Thanks William for taking this on ... this is great and it was really
lovely seeing
you at DMG today.

So what do the rest think?  What kinds of information would you like
to see
about others / things we might do, that might help us "open up
conversations,
especially with someone new on the group'?  E.g. of data that I
thought might
be helpful were ....

Please check the areas that are of most interest to you.
What areas/practices/ideas are you most excited about now?
How can our network / egroup serve you better and be more valuable to
you?

What do you think?  Would these help?  What else?


BTW just to introduce William, he has been an early reader of Peter's
Fifth
Discipline, but really found it possible to attend a formal workshop
when DMG
began to host the LOPN workshops since last year.  Am so happy to see
him
lead this effort with the eGroup project ....

An avid pursuer of the ideas of Systems Thinking, he has experienced
his fair
share of difficulties in surfacing archetypes.  Have others faced it
too?  Why
so?  What do you think we might do to help deal with the difficulty?
Penny for
your thoughts?


Warm regards
Sheila

--- In LOPN@yahoogroups.com, "William Tan" <wbktan@s...> wrote:
> Hi Sheila and everybody here,
>
> Sheila wrote:
> > Develop a member directory / database? ... William ...
> > I can't think of someone better than you ... would you?
>
> Sure... I have done that for other eGroups, and would not mind
doing so
> for LOPN eGroup.  Just need to ensure that members do not object to
the
> particulars being shared, and that when new members are asked for
their
> particulars, they are informed that these particulars will be
included
> in a database and shared.
>
> Currently, new members are asked for the following information when
they
> join:
> (1) Name
> (2) Organisation/Company:
> (3) Designation:
> (4) Preferred email contact:
> (5) Tel:
> (6) HP (optional):
> (7) How did you learn of LOPN (workshop, seminar, friend):
> (Note: I will not include Point (7) in the database.)
>
> So I will add in a line to inform them that these information will
be
> shared with all members.
>
> And members currently in here, would you mind send a private email
to me
> (at wbktan@s...) with the above information (less point (7)?
> So I can compile them and update in the eGroup's database?
>
>
> Cheers,
> William






"KNOWLEDGE IS IN THE EYE OF THE BEHOLDER!" ¡¦often the contributing person
has no idea he or she has ¡°it¡± inside of him or her ¡¦ until somebody
asks a question and helps in ¡°drawing it out¡±!  So ... start asking
questions and see where it leads you to!

"When we're not seeing what's right in front of your face -- that's the
best place to hide something ..."

Yahoo! Groups Links

Dear all,

Thanks William for taking this on ... this is great and it was really
lovely seeing
you at DMG today.

So what do the rest think?  What kinds of information would you like
to see
about others / things we might do, that might help us "open up
conversations,
especially with someone new on the group'?  E.g. of data that I
thought might
be helpful were ....

Please check the areas that are of most interest to you.
What areas/practices/ideas are you most excited about now?
How can our network / egroup serve you better and be more valuable to
you?

What do you think?  Would these help?  What else?


BTW just to introduce William, he has been an early reader of Peter's
Fifth
Discipline, but really found it possible to attend a formal workshop
when DMG
began to host the LOPN workshops since last year.  Am so happy to see
him
lead this effort with the eGroup project ....

An avid pursuer of the ideas of Systems Thinking, he has experienced
his fair
share of difficulties in surfacing archetypes.  Have others faced it
too?  Why
so?  What do you think we might do to help deal with the difficulty?
Penny for
your thoughts?


Warm regards
Sheila

--- In LOPN@yahoogroups.com, "William Tan" <wbktan@s...> wrote:
> Hi Sheila and everybody here,
>
> Sheila wrote:
> > Develop a member directory / database? ... William ...
> > I can't think of someone better than you ... would you?
>
> Sure... I have done that for other eGroups, and would not mind
doing so
> for LOPN eGroup.  Just need to ensure that members do not object to
the
> particulars being shared, and that when new members are asked for
their
> particulars, they are informed that these particulars will be
included
> in a database and shared.
>
> Currently, new members are asked for the following information when
they
> join:
> (1) Name
> (2) Organisation/Company:
> (3) Designation:
> (4) Preferred email contact:
> (5) Tel:
> (6) HP (optional):
> (7) How did you learn of LOPN (workshop, seminar, friend):
> (Note: I will not include Point (7) in the database.)
>
> So I will add in a line to inform them that these information will
be
> shared with all members.
>
> And members currently in here, would you mind send a private email
to me
> (at wbktan@s...) with the above information (less point (7)?
> So I can compile them and update in the eGroup's database?
>
>
> Cheers,
> William

Hi Sheila and everybody here,

Sheila wrote:
> Wow!  I love eGroups ... just listening so far ... it is like
> being at the session without even being there! (thanks to you
> William for starting off the idea of eGroup for LOPN ...
> really do appreciate this) ... Sheila

Yes, the power of a discussion forum like this is that people get to
share and discuss. Once a critical mass is achieved, then even though a
small number of people are doing the actual discussion, the rest will
benefit. Of course, it would be better if more people could join in the
discussion.

Cheers,
William

PS: In a discussion like this, a good practice to adopt is to quote the
relevant part of the previous email, and respond to that particular
point. This will prevent the email from snowballing into a long chain of
toilet-paper. *grin*

You may also need to change the "Subject Title" field in the email
header to reflect the new content. In this way, when emails get
threaded, the flow becomes clearer. Keeping each email to only one main
point also helps greatly.

Hi Sheila and everybody here,

Sheila wrote:
> Develop a member directory / database? ... William ...
> I can't think of someone better than you ... would you?

Sure... I have done that for other eGroups, and would not mind doing so
for LOPN eGroup.  Just need to ensure that members do not object to the
particulars being shared, and that when new members are asked for their
particulars, they are informed that these particulars will be included
in a database and shared.

Currently, new members are asked for the following information when they
join:
(1) Name
(2) Organisation/Company:
(3) Designation:
(4) Preferred email contact:
(5) Tel:
(6) HP (optional):
(7) How did you learn of LOPN (workshop, seminar, friend):
(Note: I will not include Point (7) in the database.)

So I will add in a line to inform them that these information will be
shared with all members.

And members currently in here, would you mind send a private email to me
(at wbktan@...) with the above information (less point (7)?
So I can compile them and update in the eGroup's database?


Cheers,
William

Wow!  I love eGroups ... just listening so far ... it is like being at the
session
without even being there! (thanks to you William for starting off the idea of
eGroup for LOPN ... really do appreciate this) ... Sheila

--- In LOPN@yahoogroups.com, aiebee Lau <aiebeelau@y...> wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> Loved Robert's approach........we have no problems!! Just have to be
creative in making choices about the outcomes and results we wish to see.
>
> That we need to ensure there is creative tension, or no resolution!!
>
> He made the path of least resistence crystal clear!
>
> He was warm, and connected well with the audience. Great turnout!!
>
> Regards,
>
> Aie Bee
>
> Martin Lee <martinlee.tl@g...> wrote:
> Hi all
>
> Yes, I attended Robert's sharing with my colleague..really useful stuff
(considering the short time he had) and was very impressed with the way he
connected with the audience. What struck me? Quite a few things actually.
>
> Firstly, the power of structure; that it has the power to give rise to
behaviour. Seems like a simple idea at first, but does have powerful
implications. Robert shared that organisations very commonly seek solutions
to behavioural issues without first understanding the structures influencing
that behaviour (...not easy you see, since it is difficult to see the structure
when you are in the system...), only to find that the same behaviour gets
repeated again and again. Not difficult for me to think of a few real examples
of
this happening.
>
> Secondly -  what he said about competing tension resolution systems and
how it can lead to 'oscillation'. Example he gave was that of an organisation
moving, or oscillating, between desire for change and desire for continuity.
The way to deal with it, was to determine which goal is more important. This
clarity helps us move towards the outcome we want.
>
> I particularly liked the activity where one person describes his/her room,
and the other person has to picture it and then describe it back. The activity
was a practice in structural thinking. One of the steps in structural thinking
was to start with nothing; i.e. not coming with preconceived ideas or
answers, and looking for confirmation.  Again, simple concept, but not easy, It
was a challenge for me to put aside a mental image of my own room when my
partner was describing hers. As in all discipline, needs lots of practise!
>
> Eager to hear from the rest....
>
> Cheers
> Martin
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: sheila_singapore [mailto:dmsl@p...]
> Sent: Monday, February 21, 2005 10:28 PM
> To: LOPN@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [LOPN] So ... Robert Fritz was at LOPN ... today!
>
>
>
> Dear all,
>
> I heard so many lovely things ... would anybody care to share what
> struck you
> or may what kind of questions it opened for you ... (am sure if there
> are things
> that are not as clear ... we would be happy to pull it together and
> send it to
> Fritz and see if he may clarify for you) ...
>
> Martin ... were you there?  How was it for you?  Would you start the
> ball
> rolling ... just for those who could not be there?
>
> I am dying to hear ...
>
> Warm regards and wishes,
> Sheila
>
>
>
>
>
> "KNOWLEDGE IS IN THE EYE OF THE BEHOLDER!" ¡¦often the contributing
person has no idea he or she has ¡°it¡± inside of him or her ¡¦ until somebody
asks a question and helps in ¡°drawing it out¡±!  So ... start asking questions
and see where it leads you to!
>
> "When we're not seeing what's right in front of your face -- that's the best
place to hide something ..."
>
>
>
>
>
> "KNOWLEDGE IS IN THE EYE OF THE BEHOLDER!" ¡¦often the contributing
person has no idea he or she has ¡°it¡± inside of him or her ¡¦ until somebody
asks a question and helps in ¡°drawing it out¡±!  So ... start asking questions
and see where it leads you to!
>
> "When we're not seeing what's right in front of your face -- that's the best
place to hide something ..."
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>    To visit your group on the web, go to:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/LOPN/
>
>    To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> LOPN-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>    Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
>
>
>
> Aie Bee
>
>  Yahoo! Mobile
> - Download the latest ringtones, games, and more!

Hi all

 

Yes, I attended Robert's sharing with my colleague..really useful stuff (considering the short time he had) and was very impressed with the way he connected with the audience. What struck me? Quite a few things actually.

 

Firstly, the power of structure; that it has the power to give rise to behaviour. Seems like a simple idea at first, but does have powerful implications. Robert shared that organisations very commonly seek solutions to behavioural issues without first understanding the structures influencing that behaviour (...not easy you see, since it is difficult to see the structure when you are in the system...), only to find that the same behaviour gets repeated again and again. Not difficult for me to think of a few real examples of this happening.

 

Secondly -  what he said about competing tension resolution systems and how it can lead to 'oscillation'. Example he gave was that of an organisation moving, or oscillating, between desire for change and desire for continuity. The way to deal with it, was to determine which goal is more important. This clarity helps us move towards the outcome we want.    

 

I particularly liked the activity where one person describes his/her room, and the other person has to picture it and then describe it back. The activity was a practice in structural thinking. One of the steps in structural thinking was to start with nothing; i.e. not coming with preconceived ideas or answers, and looking for confirmation.  Again, simple concept, but not easy, It was a challenge for me to put aside a mental image of my own room when my partner was describing hers. As in all discipline, needs lots of practise!  

 

Eager to hear from the rest....

 

Cheers

Martin

 

 

-----Original Message-----
From: sheila_singapore [mailto:dmsl@...]
Sent: Monday, February 21, 2005 10:28 PM
To: LOPN@yahoogroups.com  
Subject: [LOPN] So ... Robert Fritz was at LOPN ... today!

Dear all,

I heard so many lovely things ... would anybody care to share what
struck you
or may what kind of questions it opened for you ... (am sure if there
are things
that are not as clear ... we would be happy to pull it together and
send it to
Fritz and see if he may clarify for you) ...

Martin ... were you there?  How was it for you?  Would you start the
ball
rolling ... just for those who could not be there?

I am dying to hear ...

Warm regards and wishes,
Sheila





"KNOWLEDGE IS IN THE EYE OF THE BEHOLDER!" ¡¦often the contributing person has no idea he or she has ¡°it¡± inside of him or her ¡¦ until somebody asks a question and helps in ¡°drawing it out¡±!  So ... start asking questions and see where it leads you to!

"When we're not seeing what's right in front of your face -- that's the best place to hide something ..."





"KNOWLEDGE IS IN THE EYE OF THE BEHOLDER!" ¡¦often the contributing person has no idea he or she has ¡°it¡± inside of him or her ¡¦ until somebody asks a question and helps in ¡°drawing it out¡±!  So ... start asking questions and see where it leads you to!

"When we're not seeing what's right in front of your face -- that's the best place to hide something ..."

Yahoo! Mobile
- Download the latest ringtones, games, and more!

-----Original Message-----
From: sheila_singapore [mailto:dmsl@...]
Sent: Monday, February 21, 2005 10:28 PM
To: LOPN@yahoogroups.com  
Subject: [LOPN] So ... Robert Fritz was at LOPN ... today!

Dear all,

I heard so many lovely things ... would anybody care to share what
struck you
or may what kind of questions it opened for you ... (am sure if there
are things
that are not as clear ... we would be happy to pull it together and
send it to
Fritz and see if he may clarify for you) ...

Martin ... were you there?  How was it for you?  Would you start the
ball
rolling ... just for those who could not be there?

I am dying to hear ...

Warm regards and wishes,
Sheila





"KNOWLEDGE IS IN THE EYE OF THE BEHOLDER!" ¡¦often the contributing person has no idea he or she has ¡°it¡± inside of him or her ¡¦ until somebody asks a question and helps in ¡°drawing it out¡±!  So ... start asking questions and see where it leads you to!

"When we're not seeing what's right in front of your face -- that's the best place to hide something ..."

Thans Douglas ... for the international flavour you bring ...

Love this story about the Beer Game ... what is going on??! ... first baseball
bases are "moving" and now people move around and talk during the Beer
Game! (am just beside myself laughing at this ...!) ... I just wonder which part
of Rule #2: "No Talking" are we finding it difficult to understand (smiling
widely)!

Hmm ... talk about espoused and actual behaviour! Yes?

Thank you for the sharing (and a good laugh) and what one might do in such a
situation ... love the warning!

Warm regards
Sheila

--- In LOPN@yahoogroups.com, "Douglas OLoughlin" <dougo@j...> wrote:
> Hi Everyone,
>
> It feels like th3 group is getting ready to "take-off"...thanks to
everyone
> for the sharing.  Thanks Sheila for getting things going!
>
> I am also curious to hear the insights and questions from the
session with
> Robert and Rosalind.  Jackie Wong and I had attended the 4-day
Fundamentals
> of Structured Thinking workshop in the Us a few years back and
found it
> quite useful.  I wasn't able to attend the session yesterday, as I
just
> arrived back from India yesterday.  Anyway, thanks in advance to
anyone for
> any thoughts.
>
> As for Chinese Baseball, maybe I can take that example a little
closer to
> our LO home with a real-life example of a Chinese Beer Game.  A
friend of
> mine from the U.S. was facilitating the Beer Game in Beijing, in a
workshop
> on Systems Thinking.  In the middle of the game, chaos erupted as
players
> went to other tables and negotiated to buy and sell their inventory
with
> players from various positions at the other tables.    As you can
imagine,
> the debrief was a bit different than a typical Beer Game...the
focus was
> more on how to balance the ability to get things done though the
informal
> network ("guanxi") and creating systems to help get things done
> efficiently...how much chaos is healthy for a system to be
effective.
>
> Well, there is almost always a connection between two topics.   So
I
suppose
> the there is considerable Creative/Structural Tension in the area of
> creating systems that can contain that kind of whitewater change
that is
> implied in the Chinese Baseball/Beer Game examples and still
optimal to
> increase capacity.
>
> Cheers and Regards,
> Douglas

Hi Everyone,

It feels like th3 group is getting ready to "take-off"...thanks to everyone
for the sharing.  Thanks Sheila for getting things going!

I am also curious to hear the insights and questions from the session with
Robert and Rosalind.  Jackie Wong and I had attended the 4-day Fundamentals
of Structured Thinking workshop in the Us a few years back and found it
quite useful.  I wasn't able to attend the session yesterday, as I just
arrived back from India yesterday.  Anyway, thanks in advance to anyone for
any thoughts.

As for Chinese Baseball, maybe I can take that example a little closer to
our LO home with a real-life example of a Chinese Beer Game.  A friend of
mine from the U.S. was facilitating the Beer Game in Beijing, in a workshop
on Systems Thinking.  In the middle of the game, chaos erupted as players
went to other tables and negotiated to buy and sell their inventory with
players from various positions at the other tables.    As you can imagine,
the debrief was a bit different than a typical Beer Game...the focus was
more on how to balance the ability to get things done though the informal
network ("guanxi") and creating systems to help get things done
efficiently...how much chaos is healthy for a system to be effective.

Well, there is almost always a connection between two topics.   So I suppose
the there is considerable Creative/Structural Tension in the area of
creating systems that can contain that kind of whitewater change that is
implied in the Chinese Baseball/Beer Game examples and still optimal to
increase capacity.

Cheers and Regards,
Douglas

Dear Choon Seng,

Thank you for sharing such a wonderful article, I have heard of it
... not seen
the article though (that's lovely!) ... got so curious on the Chinese
baseball ...
what do you
mean "when the ball is in the air ... anyone can pick-up the base and
move it
anywhere else" ... how awful!

Why would they do that?

Warm regards
Sheila

--- In LOPN@yahoogroups.com, LOPN@yahoogroups.com wrote:
>
>
> Hello,
>
> This email message is a notification to let you know that
> a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the LOPN
> group.
>
>   File        : /Vaill-Permanent White Water.pdf
>   Uploaded by : csng730867 <csng@s...>
>   Description : Permanent White Water Peter Vaill
>
> You can access this file at the URL:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/LOPN/files/Vaill-Permanent%20White%
20Water.pdf
>
> To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit:
> http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/groups/files
>
> Regards,
>
> csng730867 <csng@s...>

Dear all,

I heard so many lovely things ... would anybody care to share what
struck you
or may what kind of questions it opened for you ... (am sure if there
are things
that are not as clear ... we would be happy to pull it together and
send it to
Fritz and see if he may clarify for you) ...

Martin ... were you there?  How was it for you?  Would you start the
ball
rolling ... just for those who could not be there?

I am dying to hear ...

Warm regards and wishes,
Sheila

Hello,

This email message is a notification to let you know that
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the LOPN
group.

   File        : /Vaill-Permanent White Water.pdf
   Uploaded by : csng730867 <csng@...>
   Description : Permanent White Water Peter Vaill

You can access this file at the URL:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/LOPN/files/Vaill-Permanent%20White%20Water.pdf

To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit:
http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/groups/files

Regards,

csng730867 <csng@...>

Hi everyone

Let me just start by saying it is great to be part of the network.

There are many wonderful ideas for this egroup and I guess it all
depends on us in actively engaging in conversations through the egroup.

Perhaps what we need now is to encourage more people to sign up for
this. Glad that Sheila is inviting more folks..perhaps we can do the
same with our network..

Perhaps we can also upload interesting information we have to share..

Lets keep the flame glowing

choon seng



-- In LOPN@yahoogroups.com, "sheila_singapore" <dmsl@p...> wrote:
>
> Dear all,
>
> Thank you for the sharings (a little shy) and your thoughts and
ideas - these
> ideas are terrific ... they are really good  ... and I thought it
was a really good
> start!
>
> Am curious ... WHO WOULD LIKE TO TAKE ON DIFFERENT ROLES
> in "supporting this eGroup" ...  well here's a few things I hear is
helpful ....
>
> 1.  Develop a member directory / database? ... William ... I can't
think of
> someone better than you ... would you?
>
> 2.  Would like to take initiative to start discussion points ...
well anyone can do
> it ... this is just to get the ball rolling ... I am happy to be one
of them ... and I
> can think of several ideas ... (LIKE THE HEAT WE ARE HAVING ... LIKE
> WORKERS' DISENGAGEMENT, ...)!
>
> Anyone else would like to volunteer? ... don't worry if you don't
have a topic
> for now ... but am sure Douglas or Joey or Hang Sheng or Aie Bee has
a lot of
> starting talking questions .... perhaps just volunteer or start
thinking about it ...
> am sure it would flow for you ...  Would it be ok for you? Would
love to hear
> you ...
>
> 3.  Updating the calendar? ... (Martin ... am thinking we can keep
the files we
> have just on LOPN MyYahoo!   Here, it would be something different,
and I
> take William's point ... it is a space for the community to store
its files,
> information or links that it shares / collects ... so don't move any
files ... yet ...
> but the calendar it is good to update here ... What do you think?)
>
> Am going to invite another sizeable group into here ... a group who are
> working on some projects and have seen active on the network ... do
look out
> for them and welcome them ...
>
> Let us know if you have more thoughts ... I have seen some thriving
> conversations ... and they are so supportive and helpful in developing
> communities ... and that's really the hope and wish here ...
>
> Was anyone at the Chingay Parade yesterday?  How was it for you?
>
> Warm regards to everyone on this lovely Sunday (it is not so hot!
phew!),
> Sheila
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: William Tan [mailto:wbktan@s...]
> Sent: 20 February 2005 10:16
> To: 'Sheila Damodaran'; 'Martin Lee'
> Subject: Profile in SOL and LOPN eGroup
> Hi Sheila and Martin,
>
> Thanks for Sheila's password and account. I took a look around the SOL
> database.
>
> My comments are as follows:
> (1) It is a great resource, and being a "form-filling" format,
rather simple to
> use. So members just type in the necessary information in the
various blank
> boxes in the forms, and the data/information is published.
>
>
> (2) I believe there is a "privacy" button that allows you to
restrict access to
> those you want to view your information.
>
> (3) I tried the member Search using "Sheila" and received 20plus
hits. Of
> these, I could read the details of only 2 members. I (or rather your
> account) did not have access to about 10 of these accounts, while
the rest,
> (another 10 accounts) did not even fill in any details.
>
>
> So, let me say that these features are good but only if members want
to use
> them. (I have a story to tell from my Intranet efforts, where we
proposed a
> member's directory feature. During focus groups discussion, the
"Movement
> Chart" feature was highly rated. Subsequently, after rolling-out,
nobody
> bothered to use it. Everybody thinks it is a good idea to know people's
> whereabouts, but nobody wants to update their own movement. *grin*
> Similarly, the mobile phone details were largely left
> blank.)
>
> For LOPN eGroup, the main feature would be
> (1) Announcements and information
> - This will probably be the main use of LOPN eGroup; keeping members
> informed of LOPN activities. You are doing so now as a newsletter,
but that
> poses two problems:
> (1) managing the members' addresses
> (2) Spam
>
> - Using eGroup, members subscribe, and unsubscribe as necessary. So no
> need to manage, and no accusations of SPAM.
>
> - The Calendar Feature can be set to send out reminders (say 1 month, 1
> week and 2 days before an event.) A simple message is sent out so the
> organiser need not be bogged down with remembering to send out
> rerminders, or fear of spamming.
>
> - Similarly, the Database feature can be used like you Membership
list to list
> selected particulars of Members.
>
> (2) Repository for files, photos etc
> - There is much information on LO, and these information can be
filed or
> linked from LOPN eGroup. (Since you already have a LOPN.org, it would
> actually be better to keep the files and information there, and
provide a link
> from LOPN eGroup to LOPN.org webpage, and vice versa.)
>
> (3) Discussions and interaction
> - Once the critical mass is achieved, we can initiate discussions on
LOPN
> events, topics, and these discussions and interactions will take on
a more
> significant aspect of LOPN. Take note that most members in virtual
> communities will remain as passive members. So do not set your
> expectations too high. *grin*
>
> (4) Polling
> - Using polls is a good way to get some members involved. Some members
> do not wish to post messages, but do not mind voting on issues or
options.
> However this will require members to have Yahoo ID. And unless the
poll is of
> importance to the members, many still do not bother to poll too. *grin*
>
>
> Regards,
> William
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Sheila Damodaran [mailto:dmsl@p...]
> Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2005 11:53 PM
> To: 'Martin Lee'; Sheila_DAMODARAN@s...
> Cc: delun_shen@s...; William Tan
> Subject: RE: Registration for the LOPN workshops
>
> Yes, I realize that after I sent the mail ...
> Well ... do feel free to use mine for now:
> ID/email: Sheila_damodaran@s...
> Password: xxxxxxxx
> Thank you.
>
> William - yes, I realize it is difficult to get into the SoL member
database.  Do
> feel free to use the id and password here to explore the site. Do
tell us what
> you think.
>
>
> --- In LOPN@yahoogroups.com, "William Tan" <wbktan@s...> wrote:
> > Hi Sheila,
> >
> > Good morning everyone and Wishing Everyone A Happy and Prosperous
> New
> > Year!
> >
> > Sheila wrote:
> > > I came across something I saw recently on SoL membership
> > >(I have copied my own profile from there:
> > > http://www.solonline.org/members/member-detail?member_id=96124)
> > > that caught my eye!
> > >
> > > Thought it was pretty good way of sharing what members'
> > > interests are and pretty much shows what the care to learn.
> > > Would you take a look at tell us what you think?
> >
> > Took a look but unable to get in. I would be very surprise if I could
> > access just from your providing a URL with a member ID. That would
also
> > mean that by just changing the member id number, I could access other
> > members particulars. Perhaps if it is really interesting, I will
sign up
> > and go in and take a look.
> >
> > There are several ways we can use to spark members' interest in here.
> > Let me list several:
> >
> > (1) Answer members' queries. If members have questions, and by posing
> > them here they get their answers, then they will continue to come back
> > here for more answers. Of course, this would require members to pose
> > questions in the first place.
> >
> > (2) Start a discussion where most people can contribute. (Actually
this
> > email is one such discussion isn't it? *grin*)
> > For example, what are the objectives, vision, plans, charter etc for
> > LOPN (if these are not in place). We could discuss them here and from
> > members' feedback and comments, evolve these documents and policies
> for
> > LOPN.
> >
> > Or we could start with a social event, like the next LOPN social
> > gathering. Sound out members' for ideas, ask for volunteers and
> > generally create interest. (Be careful about this as we should not let
> > social discussion overshadow LO-type discussion. Then members who are
> > here to learn about LO may perceive this is a social group rather
than a
> > COP (Community of Practice). So we need a balance, and discussing a
> > social
> >
> > (3) Most members are here to learn more about LOPN. So this is
where the
> > more experienced LO practitioners can lead the way. They can
initiate a
> > discussion on a particular topic, say "Generative Conversation". For
> > example, we could start generating a discussion on some experiences,
> > tools, and tips on "Generative Conversation".
> >
> > One way would be to share anecdotes, say take the Singapore-Malaysia
> > Bridge dispute, and come up with a Systems diagram and members can
> > comment or add on to it. Different people could see different systems
> > and we could share our perspectives
> >
> > (4) Newsletters and information. A good way to disseminate information
> > is through a newsletter like the LOPN email (or e-newsletter)
announcing
> > coming events etc. Instead of one long email covering several points,
> > break it up so that each email covers only one or two issues/events.
> > Then more people won't feel overwhelmed by information overload and
> more
> > likely to respond and contribute.
> >
> > Cheers,
> > William

Dear all,

Thank you for the sharings (a little shy) and your thoughts and ideas - these
ideas are terrific ... they are really good  ... and I thought it was a really
good
start!

Am curious ... WHO WOULD LIKE TO TAKE ON DIFFERENT ROLES
in "supporting this eGroup" ...  well here's a few things I hear is helpful ....

1.  Develop a member directory / database? ... William ... I can't think of
someone better than you ... would you?

2.  Would like to take initiative to start discussion points ... well anyone can
do
it ... this is just to get the ball rolling ... I am happy to be one of them ...
and I
can think of several ideas ... (LIKE THE HEAT WE ARE HAVING ... LIKE
WORKERS' DISENGAGEMENT, ...)!

Anyone else would like to volunteer? ... don't worry if you don't have a topic
for now ... but am sure Douglas or Joey or Hang Sheng or Aie Bee has a lot of
starting talking questions .... perhaps just volunteer or start thinking about
it ...
am sure it would flow for you ...  Would it be ok for you? Would love to hear
you ...

3.  Updating the calendar? ... (Martin ... am thinking we can keep the files we
have just on LOPN MyYahoo!   Here, it would be something different, and I
take William's point ... it is a space for the community to store its files,
information or links that it shares / collects ... so don't move any files ...
yet ...
but the calendar it is good to update here ... What do you think?)

Am going to invite another sizeable group into here ... a group who are
working on some projects and have seen active on the network ... do look out
for them and welcome them ...

Let us know if you have more thoughts ... I have seen some thriving
conversations ... and they are so supportive and helpful in developing
communities ... and that's really the hope and wish here ...

Was anyone at the Chingay Parade yesterday?  How was it for you?

Warm regards to everyone on this lovely Sunday (it is not so hot! phew!),
Sheila

-----Original Message-----
From: William Tan [mailto:wbktan@...]
Sent: 20 February 2005 10:16
To: 'Sheila Damodaran'; 'Martin Lee'
Subject: Profile in SOL and LOPN eGroup
Hi Sheila and Martin,

Thanks for Sheila's password and account. I took a look around the SOL
database.

My comments are as follows:
(1) It is a great resource, and being a "form-filling" format, rather simple to
use. So members just type in the necessary information in the various blank
boxes in the forms, and the data/information is published.


(2) I believe there is a "privacy" button that allows you to restrict access to
those you want to view your information.

(3) I tried the member Search using "Sheila" and received 20plus hits. Of
these, I could read the details of only 2 members. I (or rather your
account) did not have access to about 10 of these accounts, while the rest,
(another 10 accounts) did not even fill in any details.


So, let me say that these features are good but only if members want to use
them. (I have a story to tell from my Intranet efforts, where we proposed a
member's directory feature. During focus groups discussion, the "Movement
Chart" feature was highly rated. Subsequently, after rolling-out, nobody
bothered to use it. Everybody thinks it is a good idea to know people's
whereabouts, but nobody wants to update their own movement. *grin*
Similarly, the mobile phone details were largely left
blank.)

For LOPN eGroup, the main feature would be
(1) Announcements and information
- This will probably be the main use of LOPN eGroup; keeping members
informed of LOPN activities. You are doing so now as a newsletter, but that
poses two problems:
(1) managing the members' addresses
(2) Spam

- Using eGroup, members subscribe, and unsubscribe as necessary. So no
need to manage, and no accusations of SPAM.

- The Calendar Feature can be set to send out reminders (say 1 month, 1
week and 2 days before an event.) A simple message is sent out so the
organiser need not be bogged down with remembering to send out
rerminders, or fear of spamming.

- Similarly, the Database feature can be used like you Membership list to list
selected particulars of Members.

(2) Repository for files, photos etc
- There is much information on LO, and these information can be filed or
linked from LOPN eGroup. (Since you already have a LOPN.org, it would
actually be better to keep the files and information there, and provide a link
from LOPN eGroup to LOPN.org webpage, and vice versa.)

(3) Discussions and interaction
- Once the critical mass is achieved, we can initiate discussions on LOPN
events, topics, and these discussions and interactions will take on a more
significant aspect of LOPN. Take note that most members in virtual
communities will remain as passive members. So do not set your
expectations too high. *grin*

(4) Polling
- Using polls is a good way to get some members involved. Some members
do not wish to post messages, but do not mind voting on issues or options.
However this will require members to have Yahoo ID. And unless the poll is of
importance to the members, many still do not bother to poll too. *grin*


Regards,
William

-----Original Message-----
From: Sheila Damodaran [mailto:dmsl@...]
Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2005 11:53 PM
To: 'Martin Lee'; Sheila_DAMODARAN@...
Cc: delun_shen@...; William Tan
Subject: RE: Registration for the LOPN workshops

Yes, I realize that after I sent the mail ...
Well ... do feel free to use mine for now:
ID/email: Sheila_damodaran@...
Password: xxxxxxxx
Thank you.

William - yes, I realize it is difficult to get into the SoL member database. 
Do
feel free to use the id and password here to explore the site. Do tell us what
you think.


--- In LOPN@yahoogroups.com, "William Tan" <wbktan@s...> wrote:
> Hi Sheila,
>
> Good morning everyone and Wishing Everyone A Happy and Prosperous
New
> Year!
>
> Sheila wrote:
> > I came across something I saw recently on SoL membership
> >(I have copied my own profile from there:
> > http://www.solonline.org/members/member-detail?member_id=96124)
> > that caught my eye!
> >
> > Thought it was pretty good way of sharing what members'
> > interests are and pretty much shows what the care to learn.
> > Would you take a look at tell us what you think?
>
> Took a look but unable to get in. I would be very surprise if I could
> access just from your providing a URL with a member ID. That would also
> mean that by just changing the member id number, I could access other
> members particulars. Perhaps if it is really interesting, I will sign up
> and go in and take a look.
>
> There are several ways we can use to spark members' interest in here.
> Let me list several:
>
> (1) Answer members' queries. If members have questions, and by posing
> them here they get their answers, then they will continue to come back
> here for more answers. Of course, this would require members to pose
> questions in the first place.
>
> (2) Start a discussion where most people can contribute. (Actually this
> email is one such discussion isn't it? *grin*)
> For example, what are the objectives, vision, plans, charter etc for
> LOPN (if these are not in place). We could discuss them here and from
> members' feedback and comments, evolve these documents and policies
for
> LOPN.
>
> Or we could start with a social event, like the next LOPN social
> gathering. Sound out members' for ideas, ask for volunteers and
> generally create interest. (Be careful about this as we should not let
> social discussion overshadow LO-type discussion. Then members who are
> here to learn about LO may perceive this is a social group rather than a
> COP (Community of Practice). So we need a balance, and discussing a
> social
>
> (3) Most members are here to learn more about LOPN. So this is where the
> more experienced LO practitioners can lead the way. They can initiate a
> discussion on a particular topic, say "Generative Conversation". For
> example, we could start generating a discussion on some experiences,
> tools, and tips on "Generative Conversation".
>
> One way would be to share anecdotes, say take the Singapore-Malaysia
> Bridge dispute, and come up with a Systems diagram and members can
> comment or add on to it. Different people could see different systems
> and we could share our perspectives
>
> (4) Newsletters and information. A good way to disseminate information
> is through a newsletter like the LOPN email (or e-newsletter) announcing
> coming events etc. Instead of one long email covering several points,
> break it up so that each email covers only one or two issues/events.
> Then more people won't feel overwhelmed by information overload and
more
> likely to respond and contribute.
>
> Cheers,
> William

Hi Sheila,

Good morning everyone and Wishing Everyone A Happy and Prosperous New
Year!

Sheila wrote:
> I came across something I saw recently on SoL membership
>(I have copied my own profile from there:
> http://www.solonline.org/members/member-detail?member_id=96124)
> that caught my eye!
>
> Thought it was pretty good way of sharing what members'
> interests are and pretty much shows what the care to learn.
> Would you take a look at tell us what you think?

Took a look but unable to get in. I would be very surprise if I could
access just from your providing a URL with a member ID. That would also
mean that by just changing the member id number, I could access other
members particulars. Perhaps if it is really interesting, I will sign up
and go in and take a look.

There are several ways we can use to spark members' interest in here.
Let me list several:

(1) Answer members' queries. If members have questions, and by posing
them here they get their answers, then they will continue to come back
here for more answers. Of course, this would require members to pose
questions in the first place.

(2) Start a discussion where most people can contribute. (Actually this
email is one such discussion isn't it? *grin*)
For example, what are the objectives, vision, plans, charter etc for
LOPN (if these are not in place). We could discuss them here and from
members' feedback and comments, evolve these documents and policies for
LOPN.

Or we could start with a social event, like the next LOPN social
gathering. Sound out members' for ideas, ask for volunteers and
generally create interest. (Be careful about this as we should not let
social discussion overshadow LO-type discussion. Then members who are
here to learn about LO may perceive this is a social group rather than a
COP (Community of Practice). So we need a balance, and discussing a
social

(3) Most members are here to learn more about LOPN. So this is where the
more experienced LO practitioners can lead the way. They can initiate a
discussion on a particular topic, say "Generative Conversation". For
example, we could start generating a discussion on some experiences,
tools, and tips on "Generative Conversation".

One way would be to share anecdotes, say take the Singapore-Malaysia
Bridge dispute, and come up with a Systems diagram and members can
comment or add on to it. Different people could see different systems
and we could share our perspectives

(4) Newsletters and information. A good way to disseminate information
is through a newsletter like the LOPN email (or e-newsletter) announcing
coming events etc. Instead of one long email covering several points,
break it up so that each email covers only one or two issues/events.
Then more people won't feel overwhelmed by information overload and more
likely to respond and contribute.

Cheers,
William

Dear Martin and William,

Thank you so much for these ... they are indeed quite something ...
love them particularly about finding out what people's needs are and
spinning off from after the LOPN sharing / workshop sessions!

I came across something I saw recently on SoL membership (I have
copied my own profile from there:
http://www.solonline.org/members/member-detail?member_id=96124) that
caught my eye!

Thought it was pretty good way of sharing what members' interests
are and pretty much shows what the care to learn.  Would you take a
look at tell us what you think?

Douglas, Choon Seng, and of course, Joey, Aie Bee, Desiree and Hang
Sheng, and all here ... I know we have not formally introduced
everyone here to each other ... some of you know each other ... and
as you know, they are all as lovely as you yourselves are ... do
tell us what you think ... might be helpful for you or if you share
in these ideas.

Warm regards and kind wishes for the Lunar New Year
Sheila

--- In LOPN@yahoogroups.com, "Martin Lee" <martinlee.tl@g...> wrote:
> Hi William
>
> Great stuff..
>
> Regarding point 3, perhaps we could leverage on the lopn sessions/
workshops
> to provide a context for the discussions? E.g. after each lopn
session, to
> invite comments and reactions to what was shared or learnt? Maybe
this could
> spark off some rich 'virtual' dialogues and further learnings.
>
> Cheers
> Martin
>
>   -----Original Message-----
>   From: William Tan [mailto:wbktan@s...]
>   Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2005 11:32 PM
>   To: LOPN@yahoogroups.com
>   Subject: RE: [LOPN] Have ideas to warm up the eGroup ... we are
just
> starting ... love to hear you
>
>
>
>   Hi Sheila,
>
>   I think LOPN already has a good mechanism for encouraging such
contacts.
>   You have LO sessions and workshops, where people do get to meet
each
>   other, and I notice that you have social and family events. And
yes,
>   after such meetings, people will tend to identify with each
other and
>   bond better in the virtual community.
>
>   For LOPN, let's analyse what the needs of members are. And if
LOPN
>   eGroup can cater to these needs, members will be active within
eGroup.
>   Some of these needs could be:
>   (1) Access to files or materials on LO.
>   (2) Access to photos of events
>   (3) Interaction and disc with fellow LO practioners
>   (4) Identifying with mission and purpose of LOPN
>   etc.
>
>   For a start, members in LOPN eGroup could help to state what
they would
>   want from this virtual community. Then at least we could have a
list of
>   what these needs are. And how best we can cater to these needs.
>
>   Cheers,
>   William
>
>
>
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------
---------
> --
>   Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>     a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
>     http://groups.yahoo.com/group/LOPN/
>
>     b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>     LOPN-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>     c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms
of Service.
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi William

Great stuff..

Regarding point 3, perhaps we could leverage on the lopn sessions/ workshops
to provide a context for the discussions? E.g. after each lopn session, to
invite comments and reactions to what was shared or learnt? Maybe this could
spark off some rich 'virtual' dialogues and further learnings.

Cheers
Martin

   -----Original Message-----
   From: William Tan [mailto:wbktan@...]
   Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2005 11:32 PM
   To: LOPN@yahoogroups.com
   Subject: RE: [LOPN] Have ideas to warm up the eGroup ... we are just
starting ... love to hear you



   Hi Sheila,

   I think LOPN already has a good mechanism for encouraging such contacts.
   You have LO sessions and workshops, where people do get to meet each
   other, and I notice that you have social and family events. And yes,
   after such meetings, people will tend to identify with each other and
   bond better in the virtual community.

   For LOPN, let's analyse what the needs of members are. And if LOPN
   eGroup can cater to these needs, members will be active within eGroup.
   Some of these needs could be:
   (1) Access to files or materials on LO.
   (2) Access to photos of events
   (3) Interaction and disc with fellow LO practioners
   (4) Identifying with mission and purpose of LOPN
   etc.

   For a start, members in LOPN eGroup could help to state what they would
   want from this virtual community. Then at least we could have a list of
   what these needs are. And how best we can cater to these needs.

   Cheers,
   William




----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
   Yahoo! Groups Links

     a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
     http://groups.yahoo.com/group/LOPN/

     b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
     LOPN-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

     c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi Sheila,

I think LOPN already has a good mechanism for encouraging such contacts.
You have LO sessions and workshops, where people do get to meet each
other, and I notice that you have social and family events. And yes,
after such meetings, people will tend to identify with each other and
bond better in the virtual community.

For LOPN, let's analyse what the needs of members are. And if LOPN
eGroup can cater to these needs, members will be active within eGroup.
Some of these needs could be:
(1) Access to files or materials on LO.
(2) Access to photos of events
(3) Interaction and disc with fellow LO practioners
(4) Identifying with mission and purpose of LOPN
etc.

For a start, members in LOPN eGroup could help to state what they would
want from this virtual community. Then at least we could have a list of
what these needs are. And how best we can cater to these needs.

Cheers,
William

Dear William and all,

This was in response to the notice we send yesterday ... he is a new
member ... it is good start!

William, am wondering, one of the things I have learned is that when
members of a virtual community have ways to know each other better
more personally e.g. the background, perhaps something about their
organisation, their interests, perhaps sharing their own needs or
concerns, often coupled with face-to-face "encounters" (perhaps
over time) like organizing brunches, gatherings exclusively for the
community, they appear to be more active virtually ...

This may be happen either by someone inviting them to share ... or
they volunteering it themselves ... heard about it when I did a
study visit to US on a good KM organisation ... have also seen that
happen with groups here  ...

Would you hve ideas how we might have that ...  opening up to
all ... pennies (am sorry ... that's for now!) for your
thoughts ???  Perhaps something you have seen in other sites that
you really liked ... or something you had tried yourself!

Love to hear from all of you, what you think!

Warm regards
Sheila
(Hmm ...the preview function is cool. I love it!)

-----Original Message-----
From: Yahoo! Groups Notification [mailto:LOPN-acceptsub-
TD3vDfd29kD=bUkiuBQM8Y4@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: 01 February 2005 16:13
To: LOPN-owner@yahoogroups.com
Subject: APPROVE -- csng730867 <xxx> wants to join LOPN




Hello,

The following person would like to join the LOPN group:
Email address: csng730867 <csng@...>

Comment from user:
Hi, interested to join the network..

This membership request requires your approval because the
LOPN group is restricted, which means you must
approve each new member.

Hi, this is Joey Chan from HK.
and i am here, can't wait to see the discussion to happen....

Hi,

There are now four of us in the LOPN eGroup. And I hope the numbers will
grow.

In the meantime, come in and try out the features, start posting
messages and experience a virtual community.

Cheers,
William


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]