> Carolyn Stoffel saw this story on the BBC News website and thought
> you should see it.
>
>>> ** Horse genome unlocked by science ** The genome of a domestic
>>> horse has been successfully sequenced by an international team of
>>> researchers. <
>>> http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/em/fr/-/2/hi/science/nature/8345578.stm
>>> >
>
>>> To generate a high-quality genome sequence, the researchers
>>> analysed DNA from an adult female thoroughbred named Twilight.



Carolyn Stoffel

I work for the National Sporting Library in Middleburg, Virginia, a nonprofit
research library dedicated to horse and field sports. I wanted to alert members
of the group to a fellowship program here at the Library for scholars and
independent researchers who are working on topics related to horse and field
sports.  We have an extensive collection of books and reference materials
related to Thoroughbred racing and breeding, in particular, the Margaret "Sissy"
Woolums Collection of pedigree books from all over the world.

Please note that even though we can support only a few fellows per year, the
Library is free and open to any researcher who wants to use the Library.  We are
a non-lending institution, but many of the books in our general stacks can be
ordered through Interlibrary Loan through your home library.

Best,
Liz Tobey
Director of Communications and Research
National Sporting Library
Middleburg, Virginia

Here is the description of the fellowship:

John H. Daniels Fellowship at the National Sporting Library in Middleburg,
Virginia

The National Sporting Library, a research institution specializing in horse and
field sports, invites applications for research fellowships from university
faculty in the humanities and social sciences, museum and library professionals,
journalists, and independent scholars.  Research disciplines include history,
art history, literature, American studies, and area studies.  Past project
topics include Grand National Steeplechase winner, Battleship; women in horse
sports; history of Anglo-American exchange in TB racing and breeding; and Early
Modern horsemanship manuals.  Located 42 miles west of Washington, D.C., the
Library holds an extensive collection of over 17,000 books, periodicals,
manuscripts, and sporting art.  The collection covers many aspects of equestrian
and outdoor sports, including Thoroughbred racing, steeplechasing, foxhunting,
dressage, polo, eventing, coaching, shooting, fly fishing and angling.  The F.
Ambrose Rare Book Room contains over 4,000 rare volumes from the sixteenth
through twentieth centuries in several languages.  The Library has a permanent
art collection of European and American sporting art, and will open the National
Sporting Art Museum next door in 2011.  The fellowship covers approved projects
of 12 months or less, and applicants must demonstrate their need to use specific
works in the collections.  A monthly stipend, workspace, and complimentary
housing (for those outside of the immediate area) are provided.  Applications
must be postmarked by February 1, 2010.  For more information, visit our website
at http://www.nsl.org/fellowship.html or contact the Director of Communications
and Research at 540-687-6542 x 11 or fellowship@....

Gail wrote:
  > ... many are compromised without the knowledge or
  > permission of their owners.

That's the key phrase here. It's important to realize that the original
"sender" is a decent and reliable person (and a serious historian). I
presume that her computer got infected somehow and started sending bogus
messages. It's abundantly clear to me that the message purportedly from
her wasn't. I suppose she knows about the problem by now, but it would
be good to hear from her after she gets it resolved.

Sandy

What is this site? This is the warning Firefox gave me when I got there:
" Reported Attack Site!

This web site at clicknow2009.biz has been reported as an attack site and
has been blocked based on your security preferences.


Attack sites try to install programs that steal private information, use
your computer to attack others, or damage your system.

Some attack sites intentionally distribute harmful software, but many are
compromised without the knowledge or permission of their owners. "

....just thought I should pass this along, just in case...

         Gail
»§«.,¸¸,.·´¯`·.,¸¸,.»§«
Stand up for what is right,
Even if you are left standing alone.

-------Original Message-------

From: raqhabrown@...
Date: 10/19/2009 9:45:05 PM
To: lineburgs@...; pedgoddess@...; snidersan@...;
lcweller@...; wvquarterhorse68@...; sandmarc@...;
paintedstarstables@...; qhdirect@...;
aplus@...; blueribbonlady@...; tonya@...;
c5horses@...; Qh-l-request@...; mail@...;
requests@...; EquineRepro@yahoogroups.com;
courtnaybeckett@...; GreatIdeas@...; TBHeritage@yahoogroups
com
Subject: [TBHeritage]

http://www.ftancien.ftancient.danbeard.org/PeCAu9csez.html



------------------------------------

<a href=" http://www.tbheritage.com "> The holidays are coming! Great gift
ideas can be found at the Thoroughbred Heritage Store! </a>Yahoo! Groups
Links




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

http://www.ftancien.ftancient.danbeard.org/PeCAu9csez.html

In principle I think you're correct about color inheritance.

However, we also have evidence that the meaning of "chesnut" changed over
time.  There are even one or two 18th century references to a "chesnut
bay."  So, I'd suggest that we shouldn't be too definitive in conclusions
drawn from coat colors, especially the earlier the citation.

A J

On Fri, Oct 16, 2009 at 12:13 PM, Miodrag Milovanovic <dimm@...> wrote:

Lath (GB)*
[Protector] b c 1763 (Shepherd's Crab - Devonshire Crazy, by Lath). Sire
Line Alcock's Arabian. Family 9-a. In the General Stud Book [GSB 1:69] Lath
is credited to the Ancaster Crazy however as she and Shepherd's Crab were
both chestnut they could not have produced the bay Lath. The General Stud
Book does credit the Devonshire Crazy with an unnamed bay colt by Shepherd`s
Crab in 1763.

>  <snip>
>



>
>
>   Recent Activity
>
>
> Visit Your Group
>
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TBHeritage;_ylc=X3oDMTJkb2JzbHFmBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0B\
GdycElkAzEwNTIwNwRncnBzcElkAzE3MDU3MjY4ODMEc2VjA3Z0bARzbGsDdmdocARzdGltZQMxMjU1N\
zE1NTU2>
>   New web site?
>
> Drive traffic
now.<http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=14hgmaek2/M=493064.12016308.12445700.8674578/D=\
groups/S=1705726883:NC/Y=YAHOO/EXP=1255722756/L=/B=ptCQAUPDhCs-/J=12557155564359\
21/K=fg.ZP5SV5JgAQISFTKQcvg/A=3848642/R=0/SIG=131eshi2t/*http://searchmarketing.\
yahoo.com/arp/srchv2.php?o=US2004&cmp=Yahoo&ctv=Groups3&s=Y&s2=&s3=&b=50>
>
> Get your business
>
> on Yahoo! search.
>  Share Photos
>
> Put your
favorite<http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=14hue2qh7/M=493064.12016255.12445662.867457\
8/D=groups/S=1705726883:NC/Y=YAHOO/EXP=1255722756/L=/B=p9CQAUPDhCs-/J=1255715556\
435921/K=fg.ZP5SV5JgAQISFTKQcvg/A=4025373/R=0/SIG=12dtn7qjm/*http://us.rd.yahoo.\
com/evt=44092/*http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/webhosting>
>
> photos and
>
> more online.
>  Dog Groups
>
> on Yahoo!
Groups<http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=14h5gc2ke/M=493064.12016263.12445670.8674578/\
D=groups/S=1705726883:NC/Y=YAHOO/EXP=1255722756/L=/B=qNCQAUPDhCs-/J=125571555643\
5921/K=fg.ZP5SV5JgAQISFTKQcvg/A=4836043/R=0/SIG=11o19ppl5/*http://advision.webev\
ents.yahoo.com/dogzone/index.html>
>
> Share pictures &
>
> stories about dogs.
> .
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

From Bloodlines site:

Lath (GB)*
[Protector] b c 1763 (Shepherd's Crab - Devonshire Crazy, by Lath). Sire Line
Alcock's Arabian. Family 9-a. In the General Stud Book [GSB 1:69] Lath is
credited to the Ancaster Crazy however as she and Shepherd's Crab were both
chestnut they could not have produced the bay Lath. The General Stud Book does
credit the Devonshire Crazy with an unnamed bay colt by Shepherd`s Crab in 1763.
Bred by Mr Vernon he was imported by James Delancey of New York in 1768. The
American Stud Book thought that he could not have been imported that year as he
ran in England in 1770, at Warwick, however the race cited by Bruce occurred in
Warwick Maryland, not Warwick England. In 1767 he won the 800 guineas
Subscription at Newmarket under the name of Protector, beating Lord
Bolingbroke's Tartuffe and seven others. After arrival in New York in 1768 he
won a fifty at New Market, Long Island. In 1769 he won the Jockey Club Purse at
Philadelphia beating the best running horses from Maryland. In 1770 he won the
Hundred Guineas at Philadelphia and in 1771 he won the Hundred Pound Plate at
New Market. He covered in New York until 1778 after which he removed to
Virginia. He sired Tippoo Saib (b c 1780) and Marian (f 1775c) the tap root mare
of American Family a71. He died around 1786.


   ----- Original Message -----
   From: Keith Binney
   To: TBHeritage@yahoogroups.com
   Sent: Friday, October 16, 2009 10:06 AM
   Subject: Re: [TBHeritage] Betty Leeds volume one page 216 of EATS


     Not likely to be the same Lath due to dates. Lath (1732) by Godolphin
Arabian (1724) out of Roxana.
   Incidentally, the first Betty Leedes [sic] was dam of Flying Childers (1715)
and his full brother Bartlet's Childers by Darley's Arabian (1702). The best
line of Bartlet's Childer's sire sons was:

   Bartlets Childers -Squirt (1732) - Marske (1750) - Eclipse (1764)

   Regards

   Keith Binney

   www.horsemenofthefirstfrontier.info

   ----- Original Message -----
   From: Gail
   To: TBHeritage@yahoogroups.com
   Sent: Friday, October 16, 2009 2:20 PM
   Subject: Re: [TBHeritage] Betty Leeds volume one page 216 of EATS

   Is the *Lath mentioned at the end, the son of the Godolphin Arabian/Barb?

     Gail
   »§«.,¸¸,.·´¯`·.,¸¸,.»§«
   Stand up for what is right,
   even if you are left standing alone.
   -------Original Message-------

   From: A J Hibbard
   Date: 10/15/2009 8:39:49 PM
   To: TBHeritage@yahoogroups.com
   Subject: Re: [TBHeritage] Betty Leeds volume one page 216 of EATS

   N Y 1766BABRAHAM Mare No. 2, called Betty Leeds, 39, (Leed's) DeLancey's, b
   m 1760, by Rogers' (eventually Leeds') Old Babraham, son of the Godolphin
   Arabian: Dam of Payne's Sloven (GSB, i, 93) by the Bolton Starling.
   Not in ASB.
   The GSB entry (i, 93) of the Starling mare produced by Sister to Amelia
   is incomplete and does not credit that mare with any f by Babraham; nor any
   produce in 1760.
   The evidence for DeLancey's mare here in question is therefore altogether
   American, and indicates that she was 'sent to New York' from the Leeds stud
   with the older [sic, probably should have read "other" since the 2 mares are
   shown as the same age in EATS] 'Babraham mare No. 1' in the autumn of 1766,
   being then 6 years old; and that Mr DeLancey trained and raced her before
   retiring her to the stud, viz:
   [1767, May , New York Mercury] At the Harlem Course on Monday, April 20,
   Mr Leary's h [imported] Old England beat Capt. DeLancey's m Betsy [sic]
   Leeds with great ease the best of three four mile heats, 9 stone, for a
   purse of Sixty pounds.
   [1768, October 31, New York Mercury] At the Newmarket course on Hempstead
   Plains, L I, on Tuesday, October 25, Orr's [imported] Northumberland beat
   Capt. DeLancey's Betsy [sic] Leeds and Mr Leary's Old England the best of
   three four mile heats, 9 stone, for a purse of Fifty pounds.
   [1775, March 16 & August 31, Rivington's Gazette, two advts. of the
   DeLancey dispersal sale.]
   '[March 16] No. 5. A bay mare, 15 years old, 15 hands, got by Babraham:
   her dam by Starling: her grandam by the Godolphin Arabian and full sister to
   Mr Vernon's Amelia and the grandam of Tortoise...
   'No. 8. A bay filly rising one year, large and strong, got by Lath out of
   the Babraham mare No. 2.
   '[August 31] No. 4. A yearling filly from Betty Leeds, got by Traveller'.
   Identified produce:
   1773 f [not otherwise identified] by Lloyds' Traveller, son of
   Morton's *Traveller.
   1774 b f [not otherwise identified] by *Lath.

   A J

   On Thu, Oct 15, 2009 at 6:01 PM, Bruce Burton <go4morgans@...> wrote:

   >
   >
   >
   > Could someone tell me what Harrison has to say about Delancey's mare Betty
   > Leeds?
   >
   > I think it is in volume one on the page I list.
   >
   > Thanks in advance,
   >
   > Bruce
   >
   >
   >
   >
   >
   >
   >
   >
   >
   >
   > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
   >
   >
   >

   [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

   ------------------------------------

   <a href=" http://www.tbheritage.com "> The holidays are coming! Great gift
   ideas can be found at the Thoroughbred Heritage Store! </a>Yahoo! Groups
   Links

   [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

   [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Not likely to be the same Lath due to dates. Lath (1732) by Godolphin Arabian
(1724) out of Roxana.
  Incidentally, the first Betty Leedes [sic] was dam of Flying Childers (1715)
and his full brother Bartlet's Childers by Darley's Arabian (1702). The best
line of Bartlet's Childer's sire sons was:

Bartlets Childers -Squirt (1732) - Marske (1750) - Eclipse (1764)

Regards

Keith Binney

www.horsemenofthefirstfrontier.info

   ----- Original Message -----
   From: Gail
   To: TBHeritage@yahoogroups.com
   Sent: Friday, October 16, 2009 2:20 PM
   Subject: Re: [TBHeritage] Betty Leeds volume one page 216 of EATS


     Is the *Lath mentioned at the end, the son of the Godolphin Arabian/Barb?


     Gail
   »§«.,¸¸,.·´¯`·.,¸¸,.»§«
   Stand up for what is right,
   even if you are left standing alone.
   -------Original Message-------

   From: A J Hibbard
   Date: 10/15/2009 8:39:49 PM
   To: TBHeritage@yahoogroups.com
   Subject: Re: [TBHeritage] Betty Leeds volume one page 216 of EATS

   N Y 1766BABRAHAM Mare No. 2, called Betty Leeds, 39, (Leed's) DeLancey's, b
   m 1760, by Rogers' (eventually Leeds') Old Babraham, son of the Godolphin
   Arabian: Dam of Payne's Sloven (GSB, i, 93) by the Bolton Starling.
   Not in ASB.
   The GSB entry (i, 93) of the Starling mare produced by Sister to Amelia
   is incomplete and does not credit that mare with any f by Babraham; nor any
   produce in 1760.
   The evidence for DeLancey's mare here in question is therefore altogether
   American, and indicates that she was 'sent to New York' from the Leeds stud
   with the older [sic, probably should have read "other" since the 2 mares are
   shown as the same age in EATS] 'Babraham mare No. 1' in the autumn of 1766,
   being then 6 years old; and that Mr DeLancey trained and raced her before
   retiring her to the stud, viz:
   [1767, May , New York Mercury] At the Harlem Course on Monday, April 20,
   Mr Leary's h [imported] Old England beat Capt. DeLancey's m Betsy [sic]
   Leeds with great ease the best of three four mile heats, 9 stone, for a
   purse of Sixty pounds.
   [1768, October 31, New York Mercury] At the Newmarket course on Hempstead
   Plains, L I, on Tuesday, October 25, Orr's [imported] Northumberland beat
   Capt. DeLancey's Betsy [sic] Leeds and Mr Leary's Old England the best of
   three four mile heats, 9 stone, for a purse of Fifty pounds.
   [1775, March 16 & August 31, Rivington's Gazette, two advts. of the
   DeLancey dispersal sale.]
   '[March 16] No. 5. A bay mare, 15 years old, 15 hands, got by Babraham:
   her dam by Starling: her grandam by the Godolphin Arabian and full sister to
   Mr Vernon's Amelia and the grandam of Tortoise...
   'No. 8. A bay filly rising one year, large and strong, got by Lath out of
   the Babraham mare No. 2.
   '[August 31] No. 4. A yearling filly from Betty Leeds, got by Traveller'.
   Identified produce:
   1773 f [not otherwise identified] by Lloyds' Traveller, son of
   Morton's *Traveller.
   1774 b f [not otherwise identified] by *Lath.

   A J

   On Thu, Oct 15, 2009 at 6:01 PM, Bruce Burton <go4morgans@...> wrote:

   >
   >
   >
   > Could someone tell me what Harrison has to say about Delancey's mare Betty
   > Leeds?
   >
   > I think it is in volume one on the page I list.
   >
   > Thanks in advance,
   >
   > Bruce
   >
   >
   >
   >
   >
   >
   >
   >
   >
   >
   > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
   >
   >
   >


   [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



   ------------------------------------

   <a href=" http://www.tbheritage.com "> The holidays are coming! Great gift
   ideas can be found at the Thoroughbred Heritage Store! </a>Yahoo! Groups
   Links




   [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

No.  He was a horse imported to America.  In volume 2 of EATS, Harrison
presents multiple ads for this (DeLancey's) horse which identified him as a
son of Shepherd's Crab, dam Crazy, by (old) Lath (son of the Godolphin
Arabian).  This pedigree suggests he was bred in the Duke of Devonshire's
Stud, who used both Shepherd's Crab & Lath; the Duke also bred a mare called
Crazy & a sister.
A J

On Thu, Oct 15, 2009 at 10:20 PM, Gail <deerskin@...> wrote:

>
>
> Is the *Lath mentioned at the end, the son of the Godolphin Arabian/Barb?
>
>
>   Gail
> »§«.,¸¸,.·´¯`·.,¸¸,.»§«
> Stand up for what is right,
> even if you are left standing alone.
> -------Original Message-------
>
> From: A J Hibbard
> Date: 10/15/2009 8:39:49 PM
> To: TBHeritage@yahoogroups.com <TBHeritage%40yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: Re: [TBHeritage] Betty Leeds volume one page 216 of EATS
>
> N Y 1766BABRAHAM Mare No. 2, called Betty Leeds, 39, (Leed's) DeLancey's, b
>
> m 1760, by Rogers' (eventually Leeds') Old Babraham, son of the Godolphin
> Arabian: Dam of Payne's Sloven (GSB, i, 93) by the Bolton Starling.
> Not in ASB.
> The GSB entry (i, 93) of the Starling mare produced by Sister to Amelia
> is incomplete and does not credit that mare with any f by Babraham; nor any
>
> produce in 1760.
> The evidence for DeLancey's mare here in question is therefore altogether
> American, and indicates that she was 'sent to New York' from the Leeds stud
>
> with the older [sic, probably should have read "other" since the 2 mares
> are
> shown as the same age in EATS] 'Babraham mare No. 1' in the autumn of 1766,
>
> being then 6 years old; and that Mr DeLancey trained and raced her before
> retiring her to the stud, viz:
> [1767, May , New York Mercury] At the Harlem Course on Monday, April 20,
> Mr Leary's h [imported] Old England beat Capt. DeLancey's m Betsy [sic]
> Leeds with great ease the best of three four mile heats, 9 stone, for a
> purse of Sixty pounds.
> [1768, October 31, New York Mercury] At the Newmarket course on Hempstead
> Plains, L I, on Tuesday, October 25, Orr's [imported] Northumberland beat
> Capt. DeLancey's Betsy [sic] Leeds and Mr Leary's Old England the best of
> three four mile heats, 9 stone, for a purse of Fifty pounds.
> [1775, March 16 & August 31, Rivington's Gazette, two advts. of the
> DeLancey dispersal sale.]
> '[March 16] No. 5. A bay mare, 15 years old, 15 hands, got by Babraham:
> her dam by Starling: her grandam by the Godolphin Arabian and full sister
> to
> Mr Vernon's Amelia and the grandam of Tortoise...
> 'No. 8. A bay filly rising one year, large and strong, got by Lath out of
> the Babraham mare No. 2.
> '[August 31] No. 4. A yearling filly from Betty Leeds, got by Traveller'.
> Identified produce:
> 1773 f [not otherwise identified] by Lloyds' Traveller, son of
> Morton's *Traveller.
> 1774 b f [not otherwise identified] by *Lath.
>
> A J
>
> On Thu, Oct 15, 2009 at 6:01 PM, Bruce Burton
<go4morgans@...<go4morgans%40yahoo.com>>
> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> >
> > Could someone tell me what Harrison has to say about Delancey's mare
> Betty
> > Leeds?
> >
> > I think it is in volume one on the page I list.
> >
> > Thanks in advance,
> >
> > Bruce
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> <a href=" http://www.tbheritage.com "> The holidays are coming! Great gift
> ideas can be found at the Thoroughbred Heritage Store! </a>Yahoo! Groups
> Links
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Is the *Lath mentioned at the end, the son of the Godolphin Arabian/Barb?


         Gail
»§«.,¸¸,.·´¯`·.,¸¸,.»§«
Stand up for what is right,
even if you are left standing alone.
-------Original Message-------

From: A J Hibbard
Date: 10/15/2009 8:39:49 PM
To: TBHeritage@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [TBHeritage] Betty Leeds volume one page 216 of EATS

N Y 1766BABRAHAM Mare No. 2, called Betty Leeds, 39, (Leed's) DeLancey's, b
m 1760, by Rogers' (eventually Leeds') Old Babraham, son of the Godolphin
Arabian: Dam of Payne's Sloven (GSB, i, 93) by the Bolton Starling.
    Not in ASB.
    The GSB entry (i, 93) of the Starling mare produced by Sister to Amelia
is incomplete and does not credit that mare with any f by Babraham; nor any
produce in 1760.
    The evidence for DeLancey's mare here in question is therefore altogether
American, and indicates that she was 'sent to New York' from the Leeds stud
with the older [sic, probably should have read "other" since the 2 mares are
shown as the same age in EATS] 'Babraham mare No. 1' in the autumn of 1766,
being then 6 years old; and that Mr DeLancey trained and raced her before
retiring her to the stud, viz:
    [1767, May , New York Mercury] At the Harlem Course on Monday, April 20,
Mr Leary's h [imported] Old England beat Capt. DeLancey's m Betsy [sic]
Leeds with great ease the best of three four mile heats, 9 stone, for a
purse of Sixty pounds.
    [1768, October 31, New York Mercury] At the Newmarket course on Hempstead
Plains, L I, on Tuesday, October 25, Orr's [imported] Northumberland beat
Capt. DeLancey's Betsy [sic] Leeds and Mr Leary's Old England the best of
three four mile heats, 9 stone, for a purse of Fifty pounds.
    [1775, March 16 & August 31, Rivington's Gazette,  two advts. of the
DeLancey dispersal sale.]
    '[March 16] No. 5. A bay mare, 15 years old, 15 hands, got by Babraham:
her dam by Starling: her grandam by the Godolphin Arabian and full sister to
Mr Vernon's Amelia and the grandam of Tortoise...
    'No. 8. A bay filly rising one year, large and strong, got by Lath out of
the Babraham mare No. 2.
    '[August 31] No. 4. A yearling filly from Betty Leeds, got by Traveller'.
    Identified produce:
       1773 f [not otherwise identified]  by Lloyds' Traveller, son of
Morton's *Traveller.
       1774 b f [not otherwise identified] by *Lath.

A J

On Thu, Oct 15, 2009 at 6:01 PM, Bruce Burton <go4morgans@...> wrote:

>
>
>
> Could someone tell me what Harrison has to say about Delancey's mare Betty
> Leeds?
>
> I think it is in volume one on the page I list.
>
> Thanks in advance,
>
> Bruce
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



------------------------------------

<a href=" http://www.tbheritage.com "> The holidays are coming! Great gift
ideas can be found at the Thoroughbred Heritage Store! </a>Yahoo! Groups
Links




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

N Y 1766BABRAHAM Mare No. 2, called Betty Leeds, 39, (Leed's) DeLancey's, b
m 1760, by Rogers' (eventually Leeds') Old Babraham, son of the Godolphin
Arabian: Dam of Payne's Sloven (GSB, i, 93) by the Bolton Starling.
    Not in ASB.
    The GSB entry (i, 93) of the Starling mare produced by Sister to Amelia
is incomplete and does not credit that mare with any f by Babraham; nor any
produce in 1760.
    The evidence for DeLancey's mare here in question is therefore altogether
American, and indicates that she was 'sent to New York' from the Leeds stud
with the older [sic, probably should have read "other" since the 2 mares are
shown as the same age in EATS] 'Babraham mare No. 1' in the autumn of 1766,
being then 6 years old; and that Mr DeLancey trained and raced her before
retiring her to the stud, viz:
    [1767, May , New York Mercury] At the Harlem Course on Monday, April 20,
Mr Leary's h [imported] Old England beat Capt. DeLancey's m Betsy [sic]
Leeds with great ease the best of three four mile heats, 9 stone, for a
purse of Sixty pounds.
    [1768, October 31, New York Mercury] At the Newmarket course on Hempstead
Plains, L I, on Tuesday, October 25, Orr's [imported] Northumberland beat
Capt. DeLancey's Betsy [sic] Leeds and Mr Leary's Old England the best of
three four mile heats, 9 stone, for a purse of Fifty pounds.
    [1775, March 16 & August 31, Rivington's Gazette,  two advts. of the
DeLancey dispersal sale.]
    '[March 16] No. 5. A bay mare, 15 years old, 15 hands, got by Babraham:
her dam by Starling: her grandam by the Godolphin Arabian and full sister to
Mr Vernon's Amelia and the grandam of Tortoise...
    'No. 8. A bay filly rising one year, large and strong, got by Lath out of
the Babraham mare No. 2.
    '[August 31] No. 4. A yearling filly from Betty Leeds, got by Traveller'.
    Identified produce:
       1773 f [not otherwise identified]  by Lloyds' Traveller, son of
Morton's *Traveller.
       1774 b f [not otherwise identified] by *Lath.

A J

On Thu, Oct 15, 2009 at 6:01 PM, Bruce Burton <go4morgans@...> wrote:

>
>
>
> Could someone tell me what Harrison has to say about Delancey's mare Betty
> Leeds?
>
> I think it is in volume one on the page I list.
>
> Thanks in advance,
>
> Bruce
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Could someone tell me what Harrison has to say about Delancey's mare Betty
Leeds?

I think it is in volume one on the page I list.

Thanks in advance,

Bruce





















[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Very glad to hear that... what an amazing horse.
 

--- On Tue, 10/13/09, Anne Peters <anne@...> wrote:


From: Anne Peters <anne@...>
Subject: RE: [TBHeritage] Re: Sea The Stars's place in history
To: TBHeritage@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, October 13, 2009, 12:01 PM


 



I've heard of no issues. He's still going out in the morning for work,
and apparently retiring sound.

____________ _________ _________ __

From: TBHeritage@yahoogro ups.com [mailto:TBHeritage@yahoogro ups.com] On
Behalf Of april
Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 2009 9:12 AM
To: TBHeritage@yahoogro ups.com
Subject: Re: [TBHeritage] Re: Sea The Stars's place in history

Does anyone know if he was retired sound? Or did he have issues in the
last race?


--- On Fri, 10/9/09, Jorge <egrojsiriorb@ yahoo.com
<mailto:egrojsirior b%40yahoo. com> > wrote:

From: Jorge <egrojsiriorb@ yahoo.com <mailto:egrojsirior b%40yahoo. com> >
Subject: Re: [TBHeritage] Re: Sea The Stars's place in history
To: TBHeritage@yahoogro ups.com <mailto:TBHeritage% 40yahoogroups. com>
Cc: egrojsiriorb@ yahoo.com <mailto:egrojsirior b%40yahoo. com>
Date: Friday, October 9, 2009, 5:37 PM

Would like to see him race in North America. Not because of questioning
his superb quality but more
for the sake of testing all the different versatilit y factors involved
in racing on this side of the Atlantic.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



















[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I've heard of no issues. He's still going out in the morning for work,
and apparently retiring sound.



________________________________

From: TBHeritage@yahoogroups.com [mailto:TBHeritage@yahoogroups.com] On
Behalf Of april
Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 2009 9:12 AM
To: TBHeritage@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [TBHeritage] Re: Sea The Stars's place in history







Does anyone know if he was retired sound? Or did he have issues in the
last race?


--- On Fri, 10/9/09, Jorge <egrojsiriorb@...
<mailto:egrojsiriorb%40yahoo.com> > wrote:

From: Jorge <egrojsiriorb@... <mailto:egrojsiriorb%40yahoo.com> >
Subject: Re: [TBHeritage] Re: Sea The Stars's place in history
To: TBHeritage@yahoogroups.com <mailto:TBHeritage%40yahoogroups.com>
Cc: egrojsiriorb@... <mailto:egrojsiriorb%40yahoo.com>
Date: Friday, October 9, 2009, 5:37 PM



Would like to see him race in North America. Not because of questioning
his superb quality but more
for the sake of testing all the different versatilit y factors involved
in racing on this side of the Atlantic.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Does anyone know if he was retired sound? Or did he have issues in the last
race?
 

--- On Fri, 10/9/09, Jorge <egrojsiriorb@...> wrote:


From: Jorge <egrojsiriorb@...>
Subject: Re: [TBHeritage] Re: Sea The Stars's place in history
To: TBHeritage@yahoogroups.com
Cc: egrojsiriorb@...
Date: Friday, October 9, 2009, 5:37 PM


 



Would like to see him race in North America. Not because of questioning his
superb quality but more
for the sake of testing all the different versatilit y factors involved in
racing on this side of the Atlantic.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



















[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Except distance, of course.
:^*


--- In TBHeritage@yahoogroups.com, Jorge <egrojsiriorb@...> wrote:
>
> Would like to see him race in North America. Not because of
questioning his superb quality but more
> for the sake of testing all the different versatility factors involved
in racing on this side of the Atlantic.
>
>

Would like to see him race in North America. Not because of questioning his
superb quality but more
for the sake of testing all the different versatility factors involved in racing
on this side of the Atlantic.






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Yes, that's exactly what I think would happen as well. Rachel is probably a bit
overrated in my article--partly purposefully. She's obviously a very good filly,
but it's impossible to say how good right now, because we don't know how good
her competition is.

Maybe Rip Van Winkle will give us an idea at the Breeders' Cup, if he handles
the synthetic.

JPS

--- In TBHeritage@yahoogroups.com, "Anne Peters" <anne@...> wrote:
>
> I've been watching Sea The Stars all season. He's made it all look so
> matter of fact, the way he puts away his competition that you don't
> realize what he's doing until it's over and done in the blink of an eye.
> The Arc was truly remarkable. He deserves a place among the all-time
> greats but I won't pretend to know where in that group he lands, but I
> am of the opinion that he could sit off Rachel Alexandra and take her
> any time he wanted to.
>
>
>
> Anne
>
>
>
> ________________________________
>
> From: TBHeritage@yahoogroups.com [mailto:TBHeritage@yahoogroups.com] On
> Behalf Of John Sparkman
> Sent: Wednesday, October 07, 2009 10:04 PM
> To: tbheritage@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [TBHeritage] Sea The Stars's place in history
>
>
>
>
>
> Hi all,
>
> If you're interested in a continuing discussion of Sea The Stars's place
> in racing history surf on over to my blog at
> http://pedigreecurmudgeon.blogspot.com/
> <http://pedigreecurmudgeon.blogspot.com/>
>
> I also wrote an article on the subject in the October 7, 2009 edition of
> Thoroughbred Times Today, which should also appear on the website
> sometime soon.
>
> So what does everyone think? Where should Sea The Stars be rated among
> racing's all-time greats?
>
> John P. Sparkman
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

I think Sea the Stars is a great horse.  Looks such a fantastic- tuned to the
minute specimen of a racehorse.  Exciting accelaration seemingly whenever he
requires it. Six group ones in a row is a marvellous feat.  But for me I would
have liked him to have won the triple crown... the way he cruises he may have
trounced this years English St leger field. Also, I know all the mindset of
stallion millions attained at stud, but wouldnt it be wonderful, but `risky` to
see him run as a four year old?  Why not? Owners like to say that their great
horses are `horses of the people`, well let the `people` see him again next
year.  I guess thats why its still Brigadier Gerard  the number one etched in my
own greatness list. In his four year old career, begining  in May winning the
Lockinge and ending in October with winning the Champion stakes ... SEVEN wins
as a four year old at the highest level.  ( yes, I know he was mugged by Roberto
at York!). During his three year career winning from 5f to 1m 4f.  His owners
must have been very sporting and `risk taking` indeed to let the `people` see
him so much.  Then of course a comparative failure at stud.





John Pressley



To: TBHeritage@yahoogroups.com
From: anne@...
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 2009 08:32:40 -0400
Subject: RE: [TBHeritage] Sea The Stars's place in history





I've been watching Sea The Stars all season. He's made it all look so
matter of fact, the way he puts away his competition that you don't
realize what he's doing until it's over and done in the blink of an eye.
The Arc was truly remarkable. He deserves a place among the all-time
greats but I won't pretend to know where in that group he lands, but I
am of the opinion that he could sit off Rachel Alexandra and take her
any time he wanted to.

Anne

________________________________

From: TBHeritage@yahoogroups.com [mailto:TBHeritage@yahoogroups.com] On
Behalf Of John Sparkman
Sent: Wednesday, October 07, 2009 10:04 PM
To: tbheritage@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [TBHeritage] Sea The Stars's place in history

Hi all,

If you're interested in a continuing discussion of Sea The Stars's place
in racing history surf on over to my blog at
http://pedigreecurmudgeon.blogspot.com/
<http://pedigreecurmudgeon.blogspot.com/>

I also wrote an article on the subject in the October 7, 2009 edition of
Thoroughbred Times Today, which should also appear on the website
sometime soon.

So what does everyone think? Where should Sea The Stars be rated among
racing's all-time greats?

John P. Sparkman

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]









_________________________________________________________________
Use Hotmail to send and receive mail from your different email accounts.
http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/167688463/direct/01/

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Tony Morris wrote:
>Anyway, make of this what you like.  I just regret that TBHeritage, with
>all >its wonderful virtues, seems to be dominated by white Christians, a
>group which >has no credibility in Europe and is held, more or less, in
>contempt here.

and some other stuff.


Okee Dokee.  I just blocked a response to Tony's missive that referred to a
perceived higher power (correspondent--you know who you are).  A descent
into "no faith/faith-based" squabbling is banned from this list.  Tony,
from our private correspondence on Dawkins and other excellent authors,
you, of all people should know where my sympathies lie.

Discussion of hooves, stuffed formerly live animals, and other 18th century
and Victorian mementos and relics of dead horses as cultural artifacts is
hardly a religious topic.  It reflects our own fascination with the
practice.  The only mildly religious reference I saw in this discussion was
the humorous, and I believe delightfully irreverant, comment regarding the
similarity of such items to the relics of saints.

The discussion is certainly on-topic, starting with the original query
regarding Mayfly's breeding, and comments regarding other methods of
memorializing racehorses.  The Grave Matters section of tbheritage is a
popular section of the web site, and from the correspondence and
contributions I receive, for sentimental and intellectual -- not religious
-- reasons.  After all, graves, skeletons, and other extant remmants of
deceased famous horses are one of the few ways anyone today can be
physically close to former greatness, and further, it opens a window into
the beliefs and regards of the humans who cared for these animals. Burial
and other death practices of past societies are a legitimate avenue of
intellectual inquiry.

Patricia
(Moderator)

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I'm very sorry.  I have no doubt that when I'm in pain and can't sleep, I become
a much less pleasant person.  I shall keep such thoughts to myself in future. 
Please forgive me.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Tell her she still has the horse's memory in her heart.
T


In a message dated 10/7/2009 11:37:47 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
deerskin@... writes:




I remember a story about a firehorse who, on the way to a fire, caught  his
forefoot in trolly tracks and ripped off the foot to the ankle in  full
flight. The driver saw him almost fall- the horse was one of the lead
pairs-
tried to stop him, but the horse wouldn't stop till they got to the  fire.
Of
course, they put him down there, and the driver walked back to  where he saw
the horse bobble, to find the hoof still there. He brought it  back, and it
has been kind of a good luck talisman for that station ever  since.

Its gruesome, in some ways, but its also good to have something  that
belonged to a beloved animal. A friend of mine, who is disabled and  had a
serivce dog from CCI, had a tooth of his that she carried everywhere  with
her after she lost him to old age. She is devastated that recently  was
robbed, and her wallet, with Krause's tooth in it, was stolen from her.  It
was the last thing she had of him. His working tack, his leash and  collar,
and other keepsakes, have gradually been stolen from her by so  called
caretakers' over the years. Now her last bit is gone, other than a  few
photos in the computers of friends.


  Gail
»§«.,¸¸,.·´¯`·.,¸¸,.»§«
Stand up for what is right,
even if you  are left standing alone.
-------Original Message--------

From:  Tracy Burton
Date: 10/7/2009 6:07:00 PM
To: _TBHeritage@yahoogroTBHerit_ (mailto:TBHeritage@yahoogroups.com) ;  No
Reply
Subject: [TBHeritage] Re: Mayfly Hoof/Inkwell

Sandy,  great work on what appears to be our Mr. Butt the naturalist. I
found
the  website to be fascinating. I have run into mention of him in  "Nature"
magazine latter 1800's and wondered if he was the one or a  descendant,
perhaps. It has been my feeling that this hoof kicked around  for a while
(up
to 100 yrs?) before it became an inkwell. Perhaps that is  why the age
inscribed on the top of the inkwell in the silver says "aged 25  years",
which is off by a year (1794 - 1771) and was more of an estimate  made by
someone? I'm still surprised that someone who didn't know the horse  would
be
moved to honor it in such a way. Obviously few would bother or  could afford
it. That is why I think the horse was important and meaningful  to someone
down the line. If I can find the connection between the horse  and the Wynn
family through whom the
hoof was passed down, I think I  can be sure I have the right Mayfly born
in 1771 that I'm assuming died in  1794 (carved into inside of frog). Either
way we will be happy to know it's  history!

Also, I will try to get a photo posted soon, for those who  are interested
in
seeing the item.




--- On Tue, 10/6/09,  _TBHeritage@yahoogroTBHerit_
(mailto:TBHeritage@yahoogroups.com)   <_TBHeritage@yahoogroTBHerit_
(mailto:TBHeritage@yahoogroups.com) >
wrote:

From: _TBHeritage@yahoogroTBHerit_ (mailto:TBHeritage@yahoogroups.com)
<_TBHeritage@yahoogroTBHerit_ (mailto:TBHeritage@yahoogroups.com) >
Subject: [TBHeritage] Digest Number 2341
To: _TBHeritage@yahoogroTBHerit_ (mailto:TBHeritage@yahoogroups.com)
Date: Tuesday, October 6, 2009, 9:14 AM















The focus of  this list will be the early foundations of the Thoroughbred in
England and



The focus of this list will be the early foundations of  the
Thoroughbred in England and


Messages In This Digest (5
Messages)




1a.

Re: The Hoof as a Keepsake
From:
_Infowolf1@..._ (mailto:Infowolf1@...)
1b.

Re: The Hoof as a Keepsake
From:
Gail


2a.

Re: The hoof as keepsake
From:
Vache
2b.

Re: The  hoof as keepsake
From:
Gail


3.

(no subject)
From:
Tracy Burton



View All Topics | Create New Topic


Messages



1a.



Re: The Hoof as a  Keepsake

Posted by: "_Infowolf1@..._ (mailto:Infowolf1@...) "
_Infowolf1@..._ (mailto:Infowolf1@...)


infowolf1



Mon Oct 5, 2009 9:29 am (PDT)





Now this is really beginning to sound like the  scattered relics of a
saint!



Mary Christine



Incidentally, the remains of another famous Antipodean horse,  Phar Lap (NZ)
(1926) by Night Raid (GB) were even more widely distributed.  His skeleton
is
displayed at the National Museum of New Zealand in  Wellington, his mounted
hide in the National Museum of Victoria, Melbourne  and his massive heart,
formerly at the Institute of Anatomy, Canberra, is  now at the National
Museum of Australia, Canberra. Perhaps this dispersal  is an illustration of
the true Australasian Racehorse!



-----Original Message-----

From: Keith Binney  <kbinney@bigpond. net.au>

To: TBHeritage@yahoogro ups.com

Sent: Sun, Oct 4, 2009 5:44 pm

Subject: [TBHeritage] The Hoof  as a Keepsake



The retention of a "hoof as an inkwell" was a  feature of 19c taxidermy.
When
the famous stallion Musket (GB) (1867) by  Toxophilite died on October 15th
1885, the New Zealand Stud Company  arranged for the hide of Musket to be
tanned and dressed with the intention  of having it stuffed and presented to
the Auckland Museum. However, the  tanning work was unsatisfactory and the
project was abandoned.



One of Musket's hooves was then converted into an inkwell and  presented by
Captain Walmsley to Edwin Mitchelson. A piece of cannon bone  was turned
into
a serviette ring and given to Tom Morrin. Both articles  were subsequently
presented to the Auckland Racing Club, where the inkwell  stands on the Club
Secretary's desk to this day.



Items from  the great Carbine (NZ) (1885) by Musket were similarly treated.
Following  Carbine's death at Welbeck Abbey, England, aged 27, the Duke of
Portland  sent the hide to Messrs Rowland Ward ltd, Taxidermists, Picadilly,
London,  to process. The hide was then sent to the Auckland Racing Club
where
it was  found that the condition of the skin did not allow full mounting,
other  than the head and neck. The Club paid for a glass case to house the
head on  a silver plate, which relic now attracts ever-increasing attention
at the  Auckland Museum. Part of the skin was used to cover 'The
President's
Chair', which today is on display in the President's Room of  the Auckland
Racing Club. A number of Tobacco pouches were also made from  Carbine's skin
for presentation purposes.



Incidentally, the  remains of another famous Antipodean horse, Phar Lap (NZ)
(1926) by Night  Raid (GB) were even more widely distributed. His skeleton
is
displayed at  the National Museum of New Zealand in Wellington, his mounted
hide in the  National Museum of Victoria, Melbourne and his massive heart,
formerly at  the Institute of Anatomy, Canberra, is now at the National
Museum of  Australia, Canberra. Perhaps this dispersal is an illustration of
the true  Australasian Racehorse!



Keith R. Binney



www.horsemenofthefi rstfrontier. info



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]








Back to top

Reply to sender
|

Reply to group
|

Reply via web post



Messages in this topic
(3)

1b.



Re:  The Hoof as a Keepsake

Posted by: "Gail"
_deerskin@..._ (mailto:deerskin@...)


gsd_sds_r_best



Mon Oct 5, 2009 10:47 pm (PDT)





In Lawrence, Kansas, at the university museum, is the  stuffed remains
of

Commanche, a horse ridden by one of Custer's  officers. For many years,
this

horse was touted as 'the only survivor  of the Little Big Horn',
overlooking

the fact that there were many  other horses that would have survived and

either run off or were  caught by the various Indian tribes. And of course,

ignoring the fact  that the Indians themselves survived. I havent been back

to the museum  in 20 years, but I hope they have redone it, to be more

factual than  they used to be.


...and I hope they can do something about that  poor horse...he looks
dirty,

fuzzy and badly in need of at least a  dusting.





  Gail


»§«.,¸¸,.·´¯`·.,¸¸,.»§«


Stand up for what is right,


even if you are left  standing alone.


-------Original Message----- --





From: Keith Binney


Date: 10/5/2009 2:24:36  AM


To: TBHeritage@yahoogro ups.com


Subject:  [TBHeritage] The Hoof as a Keepsake





The retention of a  "hoof as an inkwell" was a feature of 19c taxidermy.
When

the famous  stallion Musket (GB) (1867) by Toxophilite died on October 15th

1885,  the New Zealand Stud Company arranged for the hide of Musket to be

tanned and dressed with the intention of having it stuffed and  presented
to

the Auckland Museum. However, the tanning work was  unsatisfactory and the

project was abandoned.





One of Musket's hooves was then converted into an  inkwell and presented by

Captain Walmsley to Edwin Mitchelson. A piece  of cannon bone was turned
into

a serviette ring and given to Tom  Morrin. Both articles were subsequently

presented to the Auckland  Racing Club, where the inkwell stands on the
Club

Secretary's desk to  this day.





Items from the great Carbine (NZ) (1885) by  Musket were similarly treated.

Following Carbine's death at Welbeck  Abbey, England, aged 27, the Duke of

Portland sent the hide to Messrs  Rowland Ward ltd, Taxidermists,
Picadilly,

London, to process. The  hide was then sent to the Auckland Racing Club
where

it was found that  the condition of the skin did not allow full mounting,

other than the  head and neck. The Club paid for a glass case to house the

head on a  silver plate, which relic now attracts ever-increasing attention

at  the Auckland Museum. Part of the skin was used to cover 'The
President's

Chair', which today is on display in the President's Room of the  Auckland

Racing Club. A number of Tobacco pouches were also made from  Carbine's
skin

for presentation purposes.





Incidentally, the remains of another famous Antipodean  horse, Phar Lap
(NZ)

(1926) by Night Raid (GB) were even more widely  distributed. His skeleton
is

displayed at the National Museum of New  Zealand in Wellington, his mounted

hide in the National Museum of  Victoria, Melbourne and his massive heart,

formerly at the Institute  of Anatomy, Canberra, is now at the National

Museum of Australia,  Canberra. Perhaps this dispersal is an illustration
of

the true  Australasian Racehorse!





Keith R. Binney





www.horsemenofthefi rstfrontier. info





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]











------------ ---------  --------- ------





<a href=" _http://www.tbherita_ (http://www.tbherita/)   ge.com "> The
holidays are coming! Great gift

ideas can be found at  the Thoroughbred Heritage Store! </a>Yahoo! Groups

Links













[Non-text portions of  this message have been removed]








Back to  top

Reply to sender
|

Reply to group
|

Reply  via web post



Messages in this topic
(3)



2a.



Re: The hoof as keepsake

Posted  by: "Vache"
_vache920@..._ (mailto:vache920@...)


vache920



Mon Oct 5, 2009 10:29 am (PDT)





Waste not, want not. Times have changed. In days gone  by the meat of
the animal would not go to waste rotting away in a grave.



--- On Sun, 10/4/09, Gail <deerskin@oct. net> wrote:



From: Gail <deerskin@oct. net>

Subject: Re:  [TBHeritage] The hoof as keepsake

To: TBHeritage@yahoogro ups.com

Date: Sunday, October 4, 2009, 7:23 PM







What kind of freaked me out was when I heard  that on the big stud farms,
at

least, when a horse dies, the entire  animal is not buried, only the head,

tail and hooves.....



What do they do with the rest of the animal? And it seems more  than a bit

ghoulish to decapitate a famous animal, for the reasons of  space saving
(the

rationale I heard).



Has anyone else  heard this?



  Gail

»§«.,¸¸,.·´¯`·.,¸¸,.»§«

Stand up for what is right,

even if you are left standing  alone.

-------Original Message----- --



From: Curler  Family

Date: 10/4/2009 8:17:00 AM

To: tbheritage@yahoogro  ups.com

Subject: [TBHeritage] The hoof as keepsake



If  anyone has ideas about the hoof/inkwell or has seen others, I would

love to hear about it.



I know of an Arabian stallion's  hoof that was presented to a man that

rode him in India and Pakistan  in the late 1800's. The horse was

renowned for his endurance and was  later taken to England. When the

horse died, one of his hooves was  presented to the man that had used him

in India and Pakistan. I don't  believe that there was anything special

done to it other than being  thoroughly cleaned.



Most unfortunately, I do not know where  this hoof has now ended up, but

it has since been attributed to a  Morgan stallion. This attributed

Morgan stallion was bred by the one  who owned the keepsake and died when

the horse was young. How the hoof  can have the provenance of the breeder

and the stallion outlived his  breeder by over two decades is puzzling.



Betsy



------------ --------- --------- ------



<a  href=" _http://www.tbherita_ (http://www.tbherita/)  ge.com "> The
holidays  are coming! Great gift

ideas can be found at the Thoroughbred Heritage  Store! </a>Yahoo! Groups

Links



[Non-text  portions of this message have been removed]



[Non-text portions  of this message have been removed]








Back to  top

Reply to sender
|

Reply to group
|

Reply  via web post



Messages in this topic
(6)

2b.



Re: The hoof as keepsake

Posted by: "Gail"
_deerskin@..._ (mailto:deerskin@...)


gsd_sds_r_best



Mon Oct 5, 2009 10:47 pm (PDT)





Yes, I know- I hear that most of the horsemeat from  the US goes to
Europe.

So I imagine that is where the custom might  have come from. Still, I cant

see cutting off the head of any of  today's beloved horses, no matter what

the custom....and cremation  seems worse








  Gail


»§«.,¸¸,.·´¯`·.,¸¸,.»§«


Stand up for what is right,


even if you are left standing alone.


-------Original  Message----- --





From: Vache


Date:  10/5/2009 12:29:20 PM


To: TBHeritage@yahoogro ups.com


Subject: Re: [TBHeritage] The hoof as keepsake





Waste not, want not. Times have changed. In days gone  by the meat of the

animal would not go to waste rotting away in a  grave.








--- On Sun, 10/4/09, Gail  <deerskin@oct. net> wrote:








From:  Gail <deerskin@oct. net>


Subject: Re: [TBHeritage] The hoof  as keepsake


To: TBHeritage@yahoogro ups.com


Date:  Sunday, October 4, 2009, 7:23 PM




















What  kind of freaked me out was when I heard that on the big stud farms,
at


least, when a horse dies, the entire animal is not buried, only  the head,


tail and hooves.....





What do  they do with the rest of the animal? And it seems more than a bit


ghoulish to decapitate a famous animal, for the reasons of space  saving
(the


rationale I heard).





Has anyone  else heard this?














   Gail


»§«.,¸¸,.·´¯`·.,¸¸,.»§«


Stand up for what is  right,


even if you are left standing alone.


-------Original Message----- --





From:  Curler Family


Date: 10/4/2009 8:17:00 AM


To:  tbheritage@yahoogro ups.com


Subject: [TBHeritage] The hoof as  keepsake





If anyone has ideas about the hoof/inkwell or  has seen others, I would


love to hear about it.





I know of an Arabian stallion's hoof that was  presented to a man that


rode him in India and Pakistan in the late  1800's. The horse was


renowned for his endurance and was later  taken to England. When the


horse died, one of his hooves was  presented to the man that had used him


in India and Pakistan. I  don't believe that there was anything special


done to it other  than being thoroughly cleaned.





Most unfortunately, I  do not know where this hoof has now ended up, but


it has since  been attributed to a Morgan stallion. This attributed


Morgan  stallion was bred by the one who owned the keepsake and died when


the horse was young. How the hoof can have the provenance of the  breeder


and the stallion outlived his breeder by over two decades  is puzzling.





Betsy











------------ ---------  --------- ------





<a href=" _http://www.tbherita_ (http://www.tbherita/)   ge.com "> The
holidays are coming! Great gift


ideas can be  found at the Thoroughbred Heritage Store! </a>Yahoo! Groups


Links














[Non-text portions  of this message have been removed]



























































[Non-text  portions of this message have been removed]











------------ ---------  --------- ------





<a href=" _http://www.tbherita_ (http://www.tbherita/)   ge.com "> The
holidays are coming! Great gift

ideas can be found at  the Thoroughbred Heritage Store! </a>Yahoo! Groups

Links













[Non-text portions of  this message have been removed]








Back to  top

Reply to sender
|

Reply to group
|

Reply  via web post



Messages in this topic
(6)



3.



(no subject)

Posted by: "Tracy Burton"
_burtonphotoart@burtonpho_ (mailto:burtonphotoart@...)


burtonphotoart



Mon Oct 5, 2009 10:46 pm (PDT)







Thank you all for your valuable input!



Does anyone know what the "Late Ward" below the naturalist's  name on the
bottom of the hoof means?



[Non-text portions of  this message have been removed]








Back to  top

Reply to sender
|

Reply to group
|

Reply  via web post



Messages in this topic
(1)
















Recent  Activity



2
New Members









Visit Your Group





New web site?
Drive traffic now.
Get your  business
on Yahoo! search.

Sell Online
Start selling with
our award-winning
e-commerce tools.

Group Charity
Citizen  Schools
Best after school
program in the US





Need to Reply?
Click one of the "Reply" links to  respond to a specific
message in the Daily Digest.





Create New Topic |

Visit Your Group on the Web





Messages
| Files
| Photos

| Database
| Polls
| Members
| Calendar


<a href=" _http://www.tbheritahttp:/_ (http://www.tbheritage.com/)  "> The
holidays are coming! Great
gift ideas can be found at the Thoroughbred  Heritage Store! </a>


MARKETPLACE


Mom Power:  Discover the community of moms doing more for their
families, for the world  and for each other






Change settings via the Web  (Yahoo! ID required)

Change settings via email: Switch delivery to  Individual | Switch format
to Traditional


Visit Your Group |

Yahoo! Groups Terms of Use |

Unsubscribe







[Non-text portions of this message have been  removed]



-----------------------------------------

<a href=" _http://www.tbheritahttp:/_ (http://www.tbheritage.com/)  "> The
holidays are coming! Great gift
ideas can be found at the Thoroughbred  Heritage Store! </a>Yahoo! Groups
Links




[Non-text  portions of this message have been removed]







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Well, Tony, thank you for sharing your views with us. I don't think
Thoroughbred Heritage is necessarily the forum for what all you had to
say, but there it is. I happen to disagree with most of what you shared,
other than the fact that there are hungry people in the world. This
really isn't the place to get into a religious discussion, either,
especially if you're going to tell everyone they're wrong.



A slaughtered horse may be intended for meat, but what about horses that
are euthanized, which renders the meat unsuitable for consumption, or
die of other causes, which would cover most high profile horses?  We
should be allowed to honor the things that are important to us in our
own ways, and other should learn tolerance.



Anne





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I've been watching Sea The Stars all season. He's made it all look so
matter of fact, the way he puts away his competition that you don't
realize what he's doing until it's over and done in the blink of an eye.
The Arc was truly remarkable. He deserves a place among the all-time
greats but I won't pretend to know where in that group he lands, but I
am of the opinion that he could sit off Rachel Alexandra and take her
any time he wanted to.



Anne



________________________________

From: TBHeritage@yahoogroups.com [mailto:TBHeritage@yahoogroups.com] On
Behalf Of John Sparkman
Sent: Wednesday, October 07, 2009 10:04 PM
To: tbheritage@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [TBHeritage] Sea The Stars's place in history





Hi all,

If you're interested in a continuing discussion of Sea The Stars's place
in racing history surf on over to my blog at
http://pedigreecurmudgeon.blogspot.com/
<http://pedigreecurmudgeon.blogspot.com/>

I also wrote an article on the subject in the October 7, 2009 edition of
Thoroughbred Times Today, which should also appear on the website
sometime soon.

So what does everyone think? Where should Sea The Stars be rated among
racing's all-time greats?

John P. Sparkman

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Tony Morris wrote:
  > Just hoping to make an impression with a bit of common sense.

Well, Tony, that's all right for the grown-ups here, but I think you're
being a bit hard on the young ladies of the list. The latter have plenty
of time remaining in which to become better acquainted with reality. I
hope that the first time they feel a need to actually bury a horse is
far in their future. (Disregarding the meat question, it's not an easy
thing to accomplish, and the first attempt might well be the last. It
was for me.) For now, however, let's let them keep their dreams. I
wouldn't be young again for anything, but, if I try really hard, I can
almost remember what it was like.

Cheers,
Sandy

......??!

  A bit of an extreme reaction, isnt this?


         Gail
»§«.,¸¸,.·´¯`·.,¸¸,.»§«
Stand up for what is right,
even if you are left standing alone.
-------Original Message-------

From: Tony Morris
Date: 10/7/2009 11:03:51 PM
To: TBHeritage@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [TBHeritage] re: Mayfly Hoof/inkwell

This was, obviously a long tradition, and horses' hooves were preserved in
various forms.

When I first visited Claiborne, in 1970, and was shown the graves of
celebrated horses there, it was obvious that there could not have been a
complete horse in the area specified.  Yes, they were separated into parts,
but I was told that, in addition to the parts previously mentioned under
this thread, the testicles were included.

I have never understood the American fixation about dead horse meat.  No, I
don't like the idea of horses being moved in distress across continents to
be slaughtered, but anyone who doesn't realise that slaughter is the best
and most sensible way of disposing of a horse's body is out of touch with
reality.

In my naivety, I wrote a piece in the 1973 Bloodstock Breeders' Review,
suggesting that Sea-Bird - the best horse I ever saw - should have been
accorded a better send-off.  The law in France said that every slaughtered
horse was intended for meat, and that was no doubt that; his best bits were
eaten.

I think I read once that it is only English speakers who don't eat horse
meat.  I haven't knowingly done so myself, but I wouldn't have a problem
with trying it.

Didn't John Gaines run the biggest dog food operation in the US?  Are we
supposed to believe that Gainesway was not a major producer of dog food, and
there was nothing of horse in the product?

The European Union, or whatever it calls itself now, will not allow the
burial of horses.  A dead horse is, automatically, meat.  Romanticise all
you like about great thoroughbreds; just think about what they might do when
they're dead.

The life expectancy in Somalia is 32 years.  The poor sod born in Somalia
today doesn't have a hope.  So far as I'm concerned, that guy deserves every
chance, and if he gets his sustenance from a Thoroughbred we've always loved
and admired, so what?  Isn't that the best epitaph that horse could have?

My body is useless.  The scientists can have a shot at it, as they will be
invited to do, but it doesn't present the opportunities that the carcase of
a thoroughbred racehorse does.  Maybe I have some tasty bits, although it's
not in our western hemisphere culture to promote that idea, but why should I
give a damn?  The only reason why I don't want to be eaten is that I want to
be burnt and my ashes distributed in an area of my choosing.

America holds the world back, with a huge majority believing in a God, and
the rest of us fearful of the Islamists who profess to have the same God,
but one who professes something different. There is no god, and there never
was one.  How does that idea make it any more difficult to deal with life?

Isn't it perfectly obvious that all of us came into this world with no
consciousness, and that everything we've been told about life counts for
nothing.  We die with no consciousness.  Isn't that great?  We've done our
bit, we won't go to heaven or hell, we just don't do anything. We become
nothing, just as we were before we were born.

Anybody who can't grasp that concept, so far as I'm concerned, is out of
his/her mind.  Just think: what did you amount to before you were born? You
will be just the same when you're dead.  There will be a life that won't
involve you, just like the one that you knew nothing of until you were born.

The world is in a terrifyingly regressive phase. Tony Blair, who I voted for
more than once, has now aligned himself with the most corrupt religious
organisation on this earth. No American politician has the guts to say that
he is an atheist. Obama is no idiot, but he would never dare to be honest.
He would be destroyed by the buffoons who brought him to power.

Don't worry about it, I'll give you this world soon enough, and let's see
what you make of it.  Fine, believe what you want to believe, but if you're
ever going to do anything that matters, you ought to do it in this life,
because you won't get another chance.

The American way of death was satirised 50 years ago by a far greater writer
than me, but still few people in America have a clue. I'll kill myself one
day, and you won't have a clue why.  You are so bound up in your own lives,
so involved in your pathetic, pointless Christianity, that you don't realise
the realities of life.

Please, just focus on the realities of life.  Isn't it the best thing that a
great racehorse, can do, at the end of his productive career, to help feed
those who need feeding? If my body were to be good for eating, I wouldn't
give a damn.  I had a blood test the other day, and it showed that my liver
was working normally.  I'll bequeathe them another shot at that; it may turn
out that their machine needed a new battery.

Anyway, make of this what you like.  I just regret that TBHeritage, with all
its wonderful virtues, seems to be dominated by white Christians, a group
which has no credibility in Europe and is held, more or less, in contempt
here.

Death is nasty, it's ugly, and it's inevitable.  But we can't go through
life ignoring it and not acknowledging that it comes to all of us.  It's a
nonsense to make a big thing of it; it's something we all get.  And, in a
lot of cases, it's welcome when it comes.  We ask for it; we make it happen.
  Oblivion is very appealing.

So please don't let us go OTT over a hoof made into an inkwell.  I have a
paperweight that was the hoof of an Arc de Triomphe winner.  I don't have to
think about - and never have thought about - the guy who employed his knife
to sever that foot.  The horse was dead.  Why should I care about what
anyone does with my body once I'm dead? They can carve it up, eat what seems
tasty, and chuck the remains in the bin.  It isn't going to amount to a toss
to me.

Just hoping to make an impression with a bit of common sense.

Tony


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



------------------------------------

<a href=" http://www.tbheritage.com "> The holidays are coming! Great gift
ideas can be found at the Thoroughbred Heritage Store! </a>Yahoo! Groups
Links



   ----------



......??!

  A bit of an extreme reaction, isn't this?


         Gail
»§«.,¸¸,.·´¯`·.,¸¸,.»§«
Stand up for what is right,
even if you are left standing alone.
-------Original Message-------

From: Tony Morris
Date: 10/7/2009 11:03:51 PM
To: TBHeritage@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [TBHeritage] re: Mayfly Hoof/inkwell

This was, obviously a long tradition, and horses' hooves were preserved in
various forms.

When I first visited Claiborne, in 1970, and was shown the graves of
celebrated horses there, it was obvious that there could not have been a
complete horse in the area specified.  Yes, they were separated into parts,
but I was told that, in addition to the parts previously mentioned under
this thread, the testicles were included.

I have never understood the American fixation about dead horse meat.  No, I
don't like the idea of horses being moved in distress across continents to
be slaughtered, but anyone who doesn't realise that slaughter is the best
and most sensible way of disposing of a horse's body is out of touch with
reality.

In my naivety, I wrote a piece in the 1973 Bloodstock Breeders' Review,
suggesting that Sea-Bird - the best horse I ever saw - should have been
accorded a better send-off.  The law in France said that every slaughtered
horse was intended for meat, and that was no doubt that; his best bits were
eaten.

I think I read once that it is only English speakers who don't eat horse
meat.  I haven't knowingly done so myself, but I wouldn't have a problem
with trying it.

Didn't John Gaines run the biggest dog food operation in the US?  Are we
supposed to believe that Gainesway was not a major producer of dog food, and
there was nothing of horse in the product?

The European Union, or whatever it calls itself now, will not allow the
burial of horses.  A dead horse is, automatically, meat.  Romanticise all
you like about great thoroughbreds; just think about what they might do when
they're dead.

The life expectancy in Somalia is 32 years.  The poor sod born in Somalia
today doesn't have a hope.  So far as I'm concerned, that guy deserves every
chance, and if he gets his sustenance from a Thoroughbred we've always loved
and admired, so what?  Isn't that the best epitaph that horse could have?

My body is useless.  The scientists can have a shot at it, as they will be
invited to do, but it doesn't present the opportunities that the carcase of
a thoroughbred racehorse does.  Maybe I have some tasty bits, although it's
not in our western hemisphere culture to promote that idea, but why should I
give a damn?  The only reason why I don't want to be eaten is that I want to
be burnt and my ashes distributed in an area of my choosing.

America holds the world back, with a huge majority believing in a God, and
the rest of us fearful of the Islamists who profess to have the same God,
but one who professes something different. There is no god, and there never
was one.  How does that idea make it any more difficult to deal with life?

Isn't it perfectly obvious that all of us came into this world with no
consciousness, and that everything we've been told about life counts for
nothing.  We die with no consciousness.  Isn't that great?  We've done our
bit, we won't go to heaven or hell, we just don't do anything. We become
nothing, just as we were before we were born.

Anybody who can't grasp that concept, so far as I'm concerned, is out of
his/her mind.  Just think: what did you amount to before you were born? You
will be just the same when you're dead.  There will be a life that won't
involve you, just like the one that you knew nothing of until you were born.

The world is in a terrifyingly regressive phase. Tony Blair, who I voted for
more than once, has now aligned himself with the most corrupt religious
organisation on this earth. No American politician has the guts to say that
he is an atheist. Obama is no idiot, but he would never dare to be honest.
He would be destroyed by the buffoons who brought him to power.

Don't worry about it, I'll give you this world soon enough, and let's see
what you make of it.  Fine, believe what you want to believe, but if you're
ever going to do anything that matters, you ought to do it in this life,
because you won't get another chance.

The American way of death was satirised 50 years ago by a far greater writer
than me, but still few people in America have a clue. I'll kill myself one
day, and you won't have a clue why.  You are so bound up in your own lives,
so involved in your pathetic, pointless Christianity, that you don't realise
the realities of life.

Please, just focus on the realities of life.  Isn't it the best thing that a
great racehorse, can do, at the end of his productive career, to help feed
those who need feeding? If my body were to be good for eating, I wouldn't
give a damn.  I had a blood test the other day, and it showed that my liver
was working normally.  I'll bequeathe them another shot at that; it may turn
out that their machine needed a new battery.

Anyway, make of this what you like.  I just regret that TBHeritage, with all
its wonderful virtues, seems to be dominated by white Christians, a group
which has no credibility in Europe and is held, more or less, in contempt
here.

Death is nasty, it's ugly, and it's inevitable.  But we can't go through
life ignoring it and not acknowledging that it comes to all of us.  It's a
nonsense to make a big thing of it; it's something we all get.  And, in a
lot of cases, it's welcome when it comes.  We ask for it; we make it happen.
  Oblivion is very appealing.

So please don't let us go OTT over a hoof made into an inkwell.  I have a
paperweight that was the hoof of an Arc de Triomphe winner.  I don't have to
think about - and never have thought about - the guy who employed his knife
to sever that foot.  The horse was dead.  Why should I care about what
anyone does with my body once I'm dead? They can carve it up, eat what seems
tasty, and chuck the remains in the bin.  It isn't going to amount to a toss
to me.

Just hoping to make an impression with a bit of common sense.

Tony


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



------------------------------------

<a href=" http://www.tbheritage.com "> The holidays are coming! Great gift
ideas can be found at the Thoroughbred Heritage Store! </a>Yahoo! Groups
Links




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I remember a story about a firehorse who, on the way to a fire, caught his
forefoot in trolly tracks and ripped off the foot to the ankle in full
flight. The driver saw him almost fall- the horse was one of the lead pairs-
tried to stop him, but the horse wouldn't stop till they got to the fire. Of
course, they put him down there, and the driver walked back to where he saw
the horse bobble, to find the hoof still there. He brought it back, and it
has been kind of a good luck talisman for that station ever since.

Its gruesome, in some ways, but its also good to have something that
belonged to a beloved animal. A friend of mine, who is disabled and had a
serivce dog from CCI, had a tooth of his that she carried everywhere with
her after she lost him to old age. She is devastated that recently was
robbed, and her wallet, with Krause's tooth in it, was stolen from her. It
was the last thing she had of him. His working tack, his leash and collar,
and other keepsakes, have gradually been stolen from her by so called
caretakers' over the years. Now her last bit is gone, other than a few
photos in the computers of friends.


         Gail
»§«.,¸¸,.·´¯`·.,¸¸,.»§«
Stand up for what is right,
even if you are left standing alone.
-------Original Message-------

From: Tracy Burton
Date: 10/7/2009 6:07:00 PM
To: TBHeritage@yahoogroups.com;  No Reply
Subject: [TBHeritage] Re: Mayfly Hoof/Inkwell

Sandy, great work on what appears to be our Mr. Butt the naturalist. I found
the website to be fascinating. I have run into mention of him in "Nature"
magazine latter 1800's and wondered if he was the one or a descendant,
perhaps. It has been my feeling that this hoof kicked around for a while (up
to 100 yrs?) before it became an inkwell. Perhaps that is why the age
inscribed on the top of the inkwell in the silver says "aged 25 years",
which is off by a year (1794 - 1771) and was more of an estimate made by
someone? I'm still surprised that someone who didn't know the horse would be
moved to honor it in such a way. Obviously few would bother or could afford
it. That is why I think the horse was important and meaningful to someone
down the line. If I can find the connection between the horse and the Wynn
family through whom the
   hoof was passed down, I think I can be sure I have the right Mayfly born
in 1771 that I'm assuming died in 1794 (carved into inside of frog). Either
way we will be happy to know it's history!

Also, I will try to get a photo posted soon, for those who are interested in
seeing the item.




--- On Tue, 10/6/09, TBHeritage@yahoogroups.com <TBHeritage@yahoogroups.com>
wrote:

From: TBHeritage@yahoogroups.com <TBHeritage@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: [TBHeritage] Digest Number 2341
To: TBHeritage@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, October 6, 2009, 9:14 AM















The focus of this list will be the early foundations of the Thoroughbred in
England and



       The focus of this list will be the early foundations of the
Thoroughbred in England and


     Messages In This Digest      (5
               Messages)




                       1a.

    Re: The Hoof as a Keepsake
   From:
       Infowolf1@...
                       1b.

    Re: The Hoof as a Keepsake
   From:
       Gail


                       2a.

    Re: The hoof as keepsake
   From:
       Vache
                       2b.

    Re: The hoof as keepsake
   From:
       Gail


                       3.

    (no subject)
   From:
       Tracy Burton



           View All Topics | Create New Topic


            Messages



         1a.



         Re: The Hoof as a Keepsake

     Posted by:      "Infowolf1@..."
       Infowolf1@...


           infowolf1



       Mon Oct 5, 2009 9:29 am        (PDT)





       Now this is really beginning to sound like the scattered relics of a
saint!



Mary Christine



Incidentally, the remains of another famous Antipodean  horse, Phar Lap (NZ)
(1926) by Night Raid (GB) were even more widely distributed. His skeleton is
displayed at the National Museum of New Zealand in Wellington, his mounted
hide in the National Museum of Victoria, Melbourne and his massive heart,
formerly at the Institute of Anatomy, Canberra, is now at the National
Museum of Australia, Canberra. Perhaps this dispersal is an illustration of
the true Australasian Racehorse!



-----Original Message-----

From: Keith Binney <kbinney@bigpond. net.au>

To: TBHeritage@yahoogro ups.com

Sent: Sun, Oct 4, 2009 5:44 pm

Subject: [TBHeritage] The Hoof as a Keepsake



The retention of a "hoof as an inkwell" was a feature of 19c taxidermy. When
the famous stallion Musket (GB) (1867) by Toxophilite died on October 15th
1885, the New Zealand Stud Company arranged for the hide of Musket to be
tanned and dressed with the intention of having it stuffed and presented to
the Auckland Museum. However, the tanning work was unsatisfactory and the
project was abandoned.



One of Musket's hooves was then converted into an inkwell and presented by
Captain Walmsley to Edwin Mitchelson. A piece of cannon bone was turned into
a serviette ring and given to Tom Morrin. Both articles were subsequently
presented to the Auckland Racing Club, where the inkwell stands on the Club
Secretary's desk to this day.



Items from the great Carbine (NZ) (1885) by Musket were similarly treated.
Following Carbine's death at Welbeck Abbey, England, aged 27, the Duke of
Portland sent the hide to Messrs Rowland Ward ltd, Taxidermists, Picadilly,
London, to process. The hide was then sent to the Auckland Racing Club where
it was found that the condition of the skin did not allow full mounting,
other than the head and neck. The Club paid for a glass case to house the
head on a silver plate, which relic now attracts ever-increasing attention
at the Auckland Museum. Part of the skin was used to cover 'The President's
Chair', which today is on display in the President's Room of the Auckland
Racing Club. A number of Tobacco pouches were also made from Carbine's skin
for presentation purposes.



Incidentally, the remains of another famous Antipodean  horse, Phar Lap (NZ)
(1926) by Night Raid (GB) were even more widely distributed. His skeleton is
displayed at the National Museum of New Zealand in Wellington, his mounted
hide in the National Museum of Victoria, Melbourne and his massive heart,
formerly at the Institute of Anatomy, Canberra, is now at the National
Museum of Australia, Canberra. Perhaps this dispersal is an illustration of
the true Australasian Racehorse!



Keith R. Binney



www.horsemenofthefi rstfrontier. info



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]








           Back to top

             Reply to sender
            |

             Reply to group
            |

             Reply via web post



             Messages in this topic
            (3)

         1b.



         Re: The Hoof as a Keepsake

     Posted by:      "Gail"
       deerskin@...


           gsd_sds_r_best



       Mon Oct 5, 2009 10:47 pm        (PDT)





       In Lawrence, Kansas, at the university museum, is the stuffed remains
of

Commanche, a horse ridden by one of Custer's officers. For many years, this

horse was touted as 'the only survivor of the Little Big Horn', overlooking

the fact that there were many other horses that would have survived and

either run off or were caught by the various Indian tribes. And of course,

ignoring the fact that the Indians themselves survived. I havent been back

to the museum in 20 years, but I hope they have redone it, to be more

factual than they used to be.


...and I hope they can do something about that poor horse...he looks dirty,

fuzzy and badly in need of at least a dusting.





         Gail


»§«.,¸¸,.·´¯`·.,¸¸,.»§«


Stand up for what is right,


even if you are left standing alone.


-------Original Message----- --





From: Keith Binney


Date: 10/5/2009 2:24:36 AM


To: TBHeritage@yahoogro ups.com


Subject: [TBHeritage] The Hoof as a Keepsake





The retention of a "hoof as an inkwell" was a feature of 19c taxidermy. When

the famous stallion Musket (GB) (1867) by Toxophilite died on October 15th

1885, the New Zealand Stud Company arranged for the hide of Musket to be

tanned and dressed with the intention of having it stuffed and presented to

the Auckland Museum. However, the tanning work was unsatisfactory and the

project was abandoned.





One of Musket's hooves was then converted into an inkwell and presented by

Captain Walmsley to Edwin Mitchelson. A piece of cannon bone was turned into

a serviette ring and given to Tom Morrin. Both articles were subsequently

presented to the Auckland Racing Club, where the inkwell stands on the Club

Secretary's desk to this day.





Items from the great Carbine (NZ) (1885) by Musket were similarly treated.

Following Carbine's death at Welbeck Abbey, England, aged 27, the Duke of

Portland sent the hide to Messrs Rowland Ward ltd, Taxidermists, Picadilly,

London, to process. The hide was then sent to the Auckland Racing Club where

it was found that the condition of the skin did not allow full mounting,

other than the head and neck. The Club paid for a glass case to house the

head on a silver plate, which relic now attracts ever-increasing attention

at the Auckland Museum. Part of the skin was used to cover 'The President's

Chair', which today is on display in the President's Room of the Auckland

Racing Club. A number of Tobacco pouches were also made from Carbine's skin

for presentation purposes.





Incidentally, the remains of another famous Antipodean  horse, Phar Lap (NZ)

(1926) by Night Raid (GB) were even more widely distributed. His skeleton is

displayed at the National Museum of New Zealand in Wellington, his mounted

hide in the National Museum of Victoria, Melbourne and his massive heart,

formerly at the Institute of Anatomy, Canberra, is now at the National

Museum of Australia, Canberra. Perhaps this dispersal is an illustration of

the true Australasian Racehorse!





Keith R. Binney





www.horsemenofthefi rstfrontier. info





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]











------------ --------- --------- ------





<a href=" http://www.tbherita ge.com "> The holidays are coming! Great gift

ideas can be found at the Thoroughbred Heritage Store! </a>Yahoo! Groups

Links













[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]








           Back to top

             Reply to sender
            |

             Reply to group
            |

             Reply via web post



             Messages in this topic
            (3)



         2a.



         Re: The hoof as keepsake

     Posted by:      "Vache"
       vache920@...


           vache920



       Mon Oct 5, 2009 10:29 am        (PDT)





       Waste not, want not.  Times have changed.  In days gone by the meat of
the animal would not go to waste rotting away in a grave.



--- On Sun, 10/4/09, Gail <deerskin@oct. net> wrote:



From: Gail <deerskin@oct. net>

Subject: Re: [TBHeritage] The hoof as keepsake

To: TBHeritage@yahoogro ups.com

Date: Sunday, October 4, 2009, 7:23 PM







What kind of freaked me out was when I heard that on the big stud farms, at

least, when a horse dies, the entire animal is not buried, only the head,

tail and hooves.....



What do they do with the rest of the animal? And it seems more than a bit

ghoulish to decapitate a famous animal, for the reasons of space saving (the

rationale I heard).



Has anyone else heard this?



  Gail

»§«.,¸¸,.·´¯`·.,¸¸,.»§«

Stand up for what is right,

even if you are left standing alone.

-------Original Message----- --



From: Curler Family

Date: 10/4/2009 8:17:00 AM

To: tbheritage@yahoogro ups.com

Subject: [TBHeritage] The hoof as keepsake



If anyone has ideas about the hoof/inkwell or has seen others, I would

love to hear about it.



I know of an Arabian stallion's hoof that was presented to a man that

rode him in India and Pakistan in the late 1800's. The horse was

renowned for his endurance and was later taken to England. When the

horse died, one of his hooves was presented to the man that had used him

in India and Pakistan. I don't believe that there was anything special

done to it other than being thoroughly cleaned.



Most unfortunately, I do not know where this hoof has now ended up, but

it has since been attributed to a Morgan stallion. This attributed

Morgan stallion was bred by the one who owned the keepsake and died when

the horse was young. How the hoof can have the provenance of the breeder

and the stallion outlived his breeder by over two decades is puzzling.



Betsy



------------ --------- --------- ------



<a href=" http://www.tbherita ge.com "> The holidays are coming! Great gift

ideas can be found at the Thoroughbred Heritage Store! </a>Yahoo! Groups

Links



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]








           Back to top

             Reply to sender
            |

             Reply to group
            |

             Reply via web post



             Messages in this topic
            (6)

         2b.



         Re: The hoof as keepsake

     Posted by:      "Gail"
       deerskin@...


           gsd_sds_r_best



       Mon Oct 5, 2009 10:47 pm        (PDT)





       Yes, I know- I hear that most of the horsemeat from the US goes to
Europe.

So I imagine that is where the custom might have come from. Still, I cant

see cutting off the head of any of today's beloved horses, no matter what

the custom....and cremation seems worse








         Gail


»§«.,¸¸,.·´¯`·.,¸¸,.»§«


Stand up for what is right,


even if you are left standing alone.


-------Original Message----- --





From: Vache


Date: 10/5/2009 12:29:20 PM


To: TBHeritage@yahoogro ups.com


Subject: Re: [TBHeritage] The hoof as keepsake





Waste not, want not.  Times have changed.  In days gone by the meat of the

animal would not go to waste rotting away in a grave.








--- On Sun, 10/4/09, Gail <deerskin@oct. net> wrote:








From: Gail <deerskin@oct. net>


Subject: Re: [TBHeritage] The hoof as keepsake


To: TBHeritage@yahoogro ups.com


Date: Sunday, October 4, 2009, 7:23 PM




















What kind of freaked me out was when I heard that on the big stud farms, at


least, when a horse dies, the entire animal is not buried, only the head,


tail and hooves.....





What do they do with the rest of the animal? And it seems more than a bit


ghoulish to decapitate a famous animal, for the reasons of space saving (the


rationale I heard).





Has anyone else heard this?














  Gail


»§«.,¸¸,.·´¯`·.,¸¸,.»§«


Stand up for what is right,


even if you are left standing alone.


-------Original Message----- --





From: Curler Family


Date: 10/4/2009 8:17:00 AM


To: tbheritage@yahoogro ups.com


Subject: [TBHeritage] The hoof as keepsake





If anyone has ideas about the hoof/inkwell or has seen others, I would


love to hear about it.





I know of an Arabian stallion's hoof that was presented to a man that


rode him in India and Pakistan in the late 1800's. The horse was


renowned for his endurance and was later taken to England. When the


horse died, one of his hooves was presented to the man that had used him


in India and Pakistan. I don't believe that there was anything special


done to it other than being thoroughly cleaned.





Most unfortunately, I do not know where this hoof has now ended up, but


it has since been attributed to a Morgan stallion. This attributed


Morgan stallion was bred by the one who owned the keepsake and died when


the horse was young. How the hoof can have the provenance of the breeder


and the stallion outlived his breeder by over two decades is puzzling.





Betsy











------------ --------- --------- ------





<a href=" http://www.tbherita ge.com "> The holidays are coming! Great gift


ideas can be found at the Thoroughbred Heritage Store! </a>Yahoo! Groups


Links














[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



























































[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]











------------ --------- --------- ------





<a href=" http://www.tbherita ge.com "> The holidays are coming! Great gift

ideas can be found at the Thoroughbred Heritage Store! </a>Yahoo! Groups

Links













[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]








           Back to top

             Reply to sender
            |

             Reply to group
            |

             Reply via web post



             Messages in this topic
            (6)



         3.



         (no subject)

     Posted by:      "Tracy Burton"
       burtonphotoart@...


           burtonphotoart



       Mon Oct 5, 2009 10:46 pm        (PDT)







Thank you all for your valuable input!



Does anyone know what the "Late Ward" below the naturalist's name on the
bottom of the hoof means?



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]








           Back to top

             Reply to sender
            |

             Reply to group
            |

             Reply via web post



             Messages in this topic
            (1)
















               Recent Activity



        2
     New Members









         Visit Your Group





                       New web site?
Drive traffic now.
Get your business
on Yahoo! search.

                       Sell Online
Start selling with
our award-winning
e-commerce tools.

                       Group Charity
Citizen Schools
Best after school
program in the US





             Need to Reply?
               Click one of the "Reply" links to respond to a specific
message in the Daily Digest.





       Create New Topic     |

       Visit Your Group on the Web





           Messages
       |    Files
       |    Photos

       |    Database
       |    Polls
       |    Members
       |    Calendar


       <a href=" http://www.tbheritage.com "> The holidays are coming! Great
gift ideas can be found at the Thoroughbred Heritage Store! </a>


       MARKETPLACE


             Mom Power: Discover the community of moms doing more for their
families, for the world and for each other






     Change settings via the Web (Yahoo! ID required)

     Change settings via email: Switch delivery to Individual | Switch format
to Traditional


       Visit Your Group     |

       Yahoo! Groups Terms of Use     |

       Unsubscribe







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



------------------------------------

<a href=" http://www.tbheritage.com "> The holidays are coming! Great gift
ideas can be found at the Thoroughbred Heritage Store! </a>Yahoo! Groups
Links




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi all,

If you're interested in a continuing discussion of Sea The Stars's place in
racing history surf on over to my blog at
http://pedigreecurmudgeon.blogspot.com/

I also wrote an article on the subject in the October 7, 2009 edition of 
Thoroughbred Times Today, which should also appear on the website sometime soon.

So what does everyone think? Where should Sea The Stars be rated among racing's
all-time greats?

John P. Sparkman




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Gail,

The tradition was head, hooves and heart.  And testicles if he was a
good sire.  Only the most extraordinary champions, such as Man o'War,
were buried whole.

Or so was the tradition.

TJC
*****


--- In TBHeritage@yahoogroups.com, "Gail" <deerskin@...> wrote:
>
> What kind of freaked me out was when I heard that on the big stud
farms, at
> least, when a horse dies, the entire animal is not buried, only the
head,
> tail and hooves.....
>
> What do they do with the rest of the animal? And it seems more than a
bit
> ghoulish to decapitate a famous animal, for the reasons of space
saving (the
> rationale I heard).
>
> Has anyone else heard this?
>
>
>
>
>          Gail
> »§«.,¸¸,.·´¯`·.,¸¸,.»§«
> Stand up for what is right,
> even if you are left standing alone.
> -------Original Message-------
>
> From: Curler Family
> Date: 10/4/2009 8:17:00 AM
> To: tbheritage@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [TBHeritage] The hoof as keepsake
>
> If anyone has ideas about the hoof/inkwell or has seen others, I would
> love to hear about it.
>
> I know of an Arabian stallion's hoof that was presented to a man that
> rode him in India and Pakistan in the late 1800's. The horse was
> renowned for his endurance and was later taken to England. When the
> horse died, one of his hooves was presented to the man that had used
him
> in India and Pakistan. I don't believe that there was anything special
> done to it other than being thoroughly cleaned.
>
> Most unfortunately, I do not know where this hoof has now ended up,
but
> it has since been attributed to a Morgan stallion. This attributed
> Morgan stallion was bred by the one who owned the keepsake and died
when
> the horse was young. How the hoof can have the provenance of the
breeder
> and the stallion outlived his breeder by over two decades is puzzling.
>
> Betsy
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> <a href=" http://www.tbheritage.com "> The holidays are coming! Great
gift
> ideas can be found at the Thoroughbred Heritage Store! </a>Yahoo!
Groups
> Links
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

RG,

Have you looked at Pedigreequery <http://www.pedigreequery.com/>  ?
It's not official or all that authoritative.  In fact, it's
user-supported and just about anyone can enter any information, although
the site's webmasters try to keep things straight.  But it's good as a
starting point for research.

TJC
******

--- In TBHeritage@yahoogroups.com, "govanderavi" <govanderavi@...>
wrote:
>
> To all,
> I am researcher in pedigree of thoroughbreds. If you can provide me
foal dates of old pedigrees. Female family starters. Old champions,
Sires etc. Please post or send me on e mail.1960 onwards foal dates of
most of the runners, sires, broodmares is available. Particularly
English families.
> Ravi Gowande
> Pedigreestar
>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]