Dare I ask  .... how is that mathematically possible?


--- In TBHeritage@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Burton <go4morgans@...> wrote:
>
> Dear Ingeborg,
>
> Harness horses or Standardbreds are at least 1/2 Thoroughbred, as are
Saddlebreds and many Morgans are also at least 1/3 TB.
>
>
> Bruce
>
>

I think this about approximate percentages in the overall
pedigree. Or if three main sources went into making up
the breed.


Infowolf1



-----Original Message-----
From: tjcass7880 <tjcass7880@...>
To: TBHeritage <TBHeritage@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tue, Feb 21, 2012 8:26 am
Subject: [TBHeritage] Re: Yukichan, White Mare in Japan





Dare I ask  .... how is that mathematically possible?

--- In TBHeritage@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Burton <go4morgans@...> wrote:
>
> Dear Ingeborg,
>
> Harness horses or Standardbreds are at least 1/2 Thoroughbred, as are
Saddlebreds and many Morgans are also at least 1/3 TB.
>
>
> Bruce
>
>









[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

At 09:36 AM 2/21/2012, you wrote:
>
>
>Laughyoumay is a sabino no doubt. She has the same pattern as
>Puchilingui has. Interesting to see her pedigree though, gives us
>more information. Thanks for finding her.

And she's by an *Herbager-line stallion. Be still my heart!

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Just calculate the blood percentages from foundation animals toward the animals
you research. And depending on how much TB is used in the creation of a breed
you can end up with horses who have a genetic make-up that is 50% or more TB.

Kind Regards,

Ingeborg


   ----- Original Message -----
   From: tjcass7880
   To: TBHeritage@yahoogroups.com
   Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2012 1:35 PM
   Subject: [TBHeritage] Re: Yukichan, White Mare in Japan


   Dare I ask  .... how is that mathematically possible?


   --- In TBHeritage@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Burton <go4morgans@...> wrote:
   >
   > Dear Ingeborg,
   >
   > Harness horses or Standardbreds are at least 1/2 Thoroughbred, as are
   Saddlebreds and many Morgans are also at least 1/3 TB.
   >


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

That is about it.
Out of my own curiosity I'm calculating now the percentages TB, Arabian,
Oriental and Hackney in the Dutch Warmblood breed, and I have found some
surprising results from what I first expected.
I calculate from foundation onwards though, and not as you see often these days,
only on the first 10 generations. That can make a lot of difference.

Kind Regards,

Ingeborg

   ----- Original Message -----
   From: Infowolf1@...
   To: TBHeritage@yahoogroups.com
   Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2012 5:40 PM
   Subject: Re: [TBHeritage] Re: Yukichan, White Mare in Japan


   I think this about approximate percentages in the overall
   pedigree. Or if three main sources went into making up
   the breed.


   Infowolf1



   -----Original Message-----
   From: tjcass7880 <tjcass7880@...>
   To: TBHeritage <TBHeritage@yahoogroups.com>
   Sent: Tue, Feb 21, 2012 8:26 am
   Subject: [TBHeritage] Re: Yukichan, White Mare in Japan





   Dare I ask  .... how is that mathematically possible?

   --- In TBHeritage@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Burton <go4morgans@...> wrote:
   >
   > Dear Ingeborg,
   >
   > Harness horses or Standardbreds are at least 1/2 Thoroughbred, as are
   Saddlebreds and many Morgans are also at least 1/3 TB.
   >
   >
   > Bruce
   >
   >









   [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



   ------------------------------------

   <a href=" http://www.tbheritage.com "> The holidays are coming! Great gift
ideas can be found at the Thoroughbred Heritage Store! </a>Yahoo! Groups Links




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Nope not related to appaloosa spotting at all.  jamie coughlin

What was previously thought of as sabino in TBs has been found to be Dominant
White.  It has a huge variety of expression from minimal through pinto and/or
roanish to all white.   Which is why I have a problem with the name!   You can
think of it sort of as sabino 2-12 (so far) but is not the same as sabino one
which is common in walkers and is truly an ancient gene mutation.  TBs have not
been found to carry SB1.  So far there is no research into what determines
flashy white markings vs. dominant white flashy white markings.  Well except for
testing every flashy white marked horse for Dominant white!   jamie coughlin

Very interesting Jamie.
Do you have a link for me to a research report about this? I find this
fascinating and hard to believe at the same time, confusing it is. Such an
ancient gene not to be part of the TB breed. Almost an ancient breed itself.

Do you know if this Dominant White in horses is related to the Waardenburg
Syndrome as it is in cats? I used to breed this kind of cats myself.

Kind Regards,

Ingeborg


   ----- Original Message -----
   From: jamie coughlin
   To: TBHeritage@yahoogroups.com
   Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2012 1:21 AM
   Subject: [TBHeritage] Re: Yukichan, White Mare in Japan



   What was previously thought of as sabino in TBs has been found to be Dominant
White.  It has a huge variety of expression from minimal through pinto and/or
roanish to all white.   Which is why I have a problem with the name!   You can
think of it sort of as sabino 2-12 (so far) but is not the same as sabino one
which is common in walkers and is truly an ancient gene mutation.  TBs have not
been found to carry SB1.  So far there is no research into what determines
flashy white markings vs. dominant white flashy white markings.  Well except for
testing every flashy white marked horse for Dominant white!   jamie coughlin





   ------------------------------------

   <a href=" http://www.tbheritage.com "> The holidays are coming! Great gift
ideas can be found at the Thoroughbred Heritage Store! </a>Yahoo! Groups Links




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I believe both studies are online.  SB1 is only one of what was theorized to be
multiple sabino genes.  (Sabino here being the phenotype not the genotype).  Try
googling Sabino 1 and Dominant White in horses and see if they come up.  If not
I may still have the DW paper.  My interest in color is in the non SB1
genes/patterns so i can't tell you more about that than what I have, sorry!  =)
I know the DW paper(s) are online though.    I have no idea about the cat color,
sorry.  DW is a mutation on KIT jamie Coughlin

Congratulation, a bay filly of 1898, by Matchmaker and out of Fota, won the
Great Metropolitan Handicap at Epsom (England) in 1902.

Patricia

Dear collaborators:
��
I am trying to identify the basic data with color and pedigree of a circa
1900s mare named CONGRATULATION.
��
There is a Daily Racing Form article (January 17, 1914) titled ���Color
Changes in Thoroughbreds��� which can be read at:
��
http://kdl.kyvl.org/cgi/t/text/pageviewer-idx?c=drf1910s;cc=drf1910s;rgn=full%20
text;idno=drf1914011701;didno=drf1914011701;view=pdf;seq=1_6;node=drf1914011701%
3A1.6
��
that reports the following two pertinent references about her:
��
���Congratulation, which eleven years ago (that is, 1903) won the
Metropolitan (not the famous Metropolitan Handicap) from Black Sand�Ķ���
��
���Congratulation was strangely marked, one of her forelegs ---from memory
the off one ---- looking as if had been dipped in whitewash right up to the
shoulder.���
��
Thanks in advance for any assistance with identifying this case.

You should have little trouble here in tracking down CONGRATULATION and her
markings. Any race in which Black Sand also was entered will have been well
covered in the racing press of the day. I would suggest the pages of the
Thoroughbred Record as your best bet.
 
Keeneland in partnership with the University of Kentucky wisely has digitized
most of the early issues of the Daily Racing Form, but these short race notes
typically do not touch upon the topic of markings.
 
Best wishes,
 
Clay Robinson


________________________________
  From: Patricia Erigero <pce@...>
To: TBHeritage@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, March 9, 2012 9:41 PM
Subject: [TBHeritage] CONGRATULATION --- the mare!



 

Congratulation, a bay filly of 1898, by Matchmaker and out of Fota, won the
Great Metropolitan Handicap at Epsom (England) in 1902.

Patricia

Dear collaborators:
¬Ý
I am trying to identify the basic data with color and pedigree of a circa
1900s mare named CONGRATULATION.
¬Ý
There is a Daily Racing Form article (January 17, 1914) titled ’ÄúColor
Changes in Thoroughbreds’Äù which can be read at:
¬Ý
http://kdl.kyvl.org/cgi/t/text/pageviewer-idx?c=drf1910s;cc=drf1910s;rgn=full%20
text;idno=drf1914011701;didno=drf1914011701;view=pdf;seq=1_6;node=drf1914011701%
3A1.6
¬Ý
that reports the following two pertinent references about her:
¬Ý
’ÄúCongratulation, which eleven years ago (that is, 1903) won the
Metropolitan (not the famous Metropolitan Handicap) from Black
Sand’Ķ’Äù
¬Ý
’ÄúCongratulation was strangely marked, one of her forelegs ---from memory
the off one ---- looking as if had been dipped in whitewash right up to the
shoulder.’Äù
¬Ý
Thanks in advance for any assistance with identifying this case.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Clay Robinson,
 
Thank you so much for your response. Ordinarily, I can pinpoint many
inconspicuous cases
but this one in particular (Congratulation) proved a little elusive until now.
Another thing is that 
many of these circa 1900s cases are out of photos ---well sign of those early
years! The case of
Congratulation caught my attention because the description is quite atypical
even for today's standards.
Oh yes, I will revisit those Thoroughbred Record archives.
Thanks again,
 
J.
 
 
From: Clay Robinson <byerleygroup@...>
To: "TBHeritage@yahoogroups.com" <TBHeritage@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, March 11, 2012 7:29 AM
Subject: Re: [TBHeritage] CONGRATULATION --- the mare!


 
You should have little trouble here in tracking down CONGRATULATION and her
markings. Any race in which Black Sand also was entered will have been well
covered in the racing press of the day. I would suggest the pages of the
Thoroughbred Record as your best bet.
 
Keeneland in partnership with the University of Kentucky wisely has digitized
most of the early issues of the Daily Racing Form, but these short race notes
typically do not touch upon the topic of markings.
 
Best wishes,
 
Clay Robinson


________________________________
From: Patricia Erigero <pce@...>
To: TBHeritage@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, March 9, 2012 9:41 PM
Subject: [TBHeritage] CONGRATULATION --- the mare!


 

Congratulation, a bay filly of 1898, by Matchmaker and out of Fota, won the
Great Metropolitan Handicap at Epsom (England) in 1902.

Patricia

Dear collaborators:
¬Ý
I am trying to identify the basic data with color and pedigree of a circa
1900s mare named CONGRATULATION.
¬Ý
There is a Daily Racing Form article (January 17, 1914) titled ’ÄúColor
Changes in Thoroughbreds’Äù which can be read at:
¬Ý
http://kdl.kyvl.org/cgi/t/text/pageviewer-idx?c=drf1910s;cc=drf1910s;rgn=full%20
text;idno=drf1914011701;didno=drf1914011701;view=pdf;seq=1_6;node=drf1914011701%
3A1.6
¬Ý
that reports the following two pertinent references about her:
¬Ý
’ÄúCongratulation, which eleven years ago (that is, 1903) won the
Metropolitan (not the famous Metropolitan Handicap) from Black
Sand’Ķ’Äù
¬Ý
’ÄúCongratulation was strangely marked, one of her forelegs ---from memory
the off one ---- looking as if had been dipped in whitewash right up to the
shoulder.’Äù
¬Ý
Thanks in advance for any assistance with identifying this case.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Clay,
 
I though that many back issues of "THOROUGHBRED RECORD" were available
through the Kentuckiana Digital Library but I can only see that there are only
two (2) back issues open for examination. Is that true or am I missing some
crucial
information posted elsewhere? Thanks for your assistance.
Regards,
 
Jorge

From: Clay Robinson <byerleygroup@...>
To: "TBHeritage@yahoogroups.com" <TBHeritage@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, March 11, 2012 7:29 AM
Subject: Re: [TBHeritage] CONGRATULATION --- the mare!


 
You should have little trouble here in tracking down CONGRATULATION and her
markings. Any race in which Black Sand also was entered will have been well
covered in the racing press of the day. I would suggest the pages of the
Thoroughbred Record as your best bet.
 
Keeneland in partnership with the University of Kentucky wisely has digitized
most of the early issues of the Daily Racing Form, but these short race notes
typically do not touch upon the topic of markings.
 
Best wishes,
 
Clay Robinson


________________________________
From: Patricia Erigero <pce@...>
To: TBHeritage@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, March 9, 2012 9:41 PM
Subject: [TBHeritage] CONGRATULATION --- the mare!


 

Congratulation, a bay filly of 1898, by Matchmaker and out of Fota, won the
Great Metropolitan Handicap at Epsom (England) in 1902.

Patricia

Dear collaborators:
¬Ý
I am trying to identify the basic data with color and pedigree of a circa
1900s mare named CONGRATULATION.
¬Ý
There is a Daily Racing Form article (January 17, 1914) titled ’ÄúColor
Changes in Thoroughbreds’Äù which can be read at:
¬Ý
http://kdl.kyvl.org/cgi/t/text/pageviewer-idx?c=drf1910s;cc=drf1910s;rgn=full%20
text;idno=drf1914011701;didno=drf1914011701;view=pdf;seq=1_6;node=drf1914011701%
3A1.6
¬Ý
that reports the following two pertinent references about her:
¬Ý
’ÄúCongratulation, which eleven years ago (that is, 1903) won the
Metropolitan (not the famous Metropolitan Handicap) from Black
Sand’Ķ’Äù
¬Ý
’ÄúCongratulation was strangely marked, one of her forelegs ---from memory
the off one ---- looking as if had been dipped in whitewash right up to the
shoulder.’Äù
¬Ý
Thanks in advance for any assistance with identifying this case.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

This would make a significant change to those pedigrees that were bred on the
Bend Or (Tadcaster)/Macaroni nick...

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1475-4754.2012.00666.x/abstract?use\
rIsAuthenticated=true&deniedAccessCustomisedMessage=

Our multidisciplinary study of historic Thoroughbred horses solves two
long-running mysteries in racing history. Eclipse, the greatest racehorse ever
known, never lost a race. His skeleton is housed in the Royal Veterinary
College, London; however, there is controversy over its authenticity. The 1880
Epsom Derby was won by Bend Or. In one of the great controversies of
Thoroughbred racing, the owners of Bend Or were accused of swapping him with
another horse, Tadcaster, whose maternal pedigree was more prestigious. Bend
Or's skeleton resides at the Natural History Museum, in London. Eclipse and
Tadcaster were both extremely popular at stud, and the vast majority of
racehorses today are descendents. We compared mitochondrial DNA haplotypes of
living and historic Thoroughbred skeletons, including those of Eclipse and Bend
Or. Additionally, we compared skeletal morphometrics of Eclipse's skeleton with
measurements taken at autopsy. Carbon and nitrogen stable isotopes of a range of
skeletal elements were compared in order to establish that the Eclipse skeleton
was that of a single horse. Our multidisciplinary data suggest that the putative
skeleton is consistent with that of Eclipse. In contrast, mitochondrial DNA
haplotype sharing indicated that the skeleton known as Bend Or is most probably
that of Tadcaster.

Byron, shame on you for not reading the Thoroughbred Owner & Breeder.  I
reported that 'news' in my column of May 2011.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Here's a link to Tony's article

http://www.ownerbreeder.co.uk/2011/05/tony-morris-may-2011/


--- On Tue, 4/17/12, Tony Morris <a.g.morris@...> wrote:

From: Tony Morris <a.g.morris@...>
Subject: [TBHeritage] re: Bend Or was Tadcaster
To: tb_breeding_theory@yahoogroups.com
Cc: TBHeritage@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, April 17, 2012, 2:50 AM
















 









       Byron, shame on you for not reading the Thoroughbred Owner & Breeder.  I
reported that 'news' in my column of May 2011.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



























[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>
>
>
>
>Please join us for a
>PRIVATE PRESS VIEWING
>Tuesday, April 24th at 11:00 a.m.
>
>
>SCRAPS:
>British Sporting Drawings
>from the
>Paul Mellon
>Collection
>
>and introduction
>
>by the National
>Sporting Library &
>Museum's new
>George L. Ohrstrom, Jr. Curator, Claudia Pfeiffer.
>
>Light refreshments.
>RSVP by April 22nd
>to <mailto:hreuter@...>hreuter@...
>
>
>
>On view through June 30, 2012 -
><http://r20.rs6.net/tn.jsp?e=0010N9vOg2X0Tn_M07xeX6fj7e9vIKN_n6pz_UisPOr-sfJd5K\
y
>fULufgiSXmftGD3lRU4NTBi6ZVnji4R-pmXujt6ApRM_uncvl2Z6phkO-2TgUgfZxYcUbM8PV7PI40R\
2
>sG8h8tdfIjTmpJNj6TFJUWC0ethCT6nWCr-Xr1ixL9GvU1CxzeSU0rA8dfDsnjLI>Read More
>
>National Sporting Library and Museum
>Get directions:
><"http://r20.rs6.net/tn.jsp?e=0010N9vOg2X0TlxwnK2JNLZncZJ_DyVnwLkBFXJy6zQfzPLmr\
a
>0I8L-G1LnY1oUrj3-vsrlWqPXbGI0Hd47LCa_It3FEDQ7Zhpsrv1bo-knClAtmgHBF4F_pEbt1Ah-p4\
8
>hu-4Qa4-lGFgdb2_0csMcFgEdNtTTDcbRCypBoy9-Sp4CMptzo2Ym7xbp76X7u9WNaPBE_iJ9gy5zHb\
0
>fI8WX_ghFfS2KAzf>102 The Plains Road, Middleburg, Virginia 20117
>(540) 687-6542
>*<http://r20.rs6.net/tn.jsp?e=0010N9vOg2X0TmmSF9pZy-ZP2qz_7gLyq8w2EdHAjdV5yFXq8\
X
>gq6Lencl-e3Ga-SrdP5TkX8xABfWndvyWK2SuyIhUX1LlyN1OwvNfRaranGg=> www.nsl.org
>
>Library: Tuesday - Friday, 10 am - 4 pm and Saturday, 1 pm - 4 pm
>Museum: Wednesday - Saturday, 10 am - 4 pm and Sunday, noon - 4 pm
>
>This exhibition was organized by the Virginia Museum of Fine Arts.
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

In 1904 a Thoroughbred named Mcgee or Joe Mcgee raced on the Elm Ridge, KS
track, May 2nd.

Does anyone know his breeding or where I can find it?

I believe he is the horse that sired a stallion called Young Diamond in KS, that
sired a mare that foal in KS in 1914.

Bruce

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> In 1904 a Thoroughbred named Mcgee or Joe Mcgee raced on the Elm Ridge, KS
track, May 2nd.

Does anyone know his breeding or where I can find it?

I believe he is the horse that sired a stallion called Young Diamond in KS,
that sired a mare that foal in KS in 1914.





There is the following colt named Joe McGee:



Joe McGee 1897 bc by Riley

Hattie Harris 1880 brf by Marmaduke

Pirouette by Harvey Villian



Chris







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi Roy,



Hattie Harris foaled Alex Ullman 1899 chc by Riley. Where have you found the
colt Joe Ullman?



I'll check later volumes of ASB to see if there was a name change.



Regards,



Chris





From: Roy Hadley [mailto:roy.hadley1957@...]
Sent: Wednesday, April 18, 2012 8:55 AM
To: camatthes@...
Cc: TBHeritage@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: Joe McGee



Dear Chris,



I may well be wrong, but I think that the colt (Joe McGhee) that you refer
to by Riley ex Hattie Harris (Marmaduke) may have actually been called Joe
Ullman.



Kind Regards,



Roy Hadley



----- Original Message -----

From: C.A.Matthes <mailto:camatthes@...>

To: TBHeritage@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Wednesday, April 18, 2012 3:41 PM

Subject: [TBHeritage] RE: Joe McGee



> In 1904 a Thoroughbred named Mcgee or Joe Mcgee raced on the Elm Ridge, KS
track, May 2nd.

Does anyone know his breeding or where I can find it?

I believe he is the horse that sired a stallion called Young Diamond in KS,
that sired a mare that foal in KS in 1914.

There is the following colt named Joe McGee:

Joe McGee 1897 bc by Riley

Hattie Harris 1880 brf by Marmaduke

Pirouette by Harvey Villian

Chris






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I hit 'send' too quickly. Joe Ullman was the 1894 chc by Riley - Hattie
Harris by Marmaduke. The colt was originally entered as Ullman. The
correction appears in vol. 10 of ASB.



Regards,



Chris





From: Roy Hadley [mailto:roy.hadley1957@...]
Sent: Wednesday, April 18, 2012 8:55 AM
To: camatthes@...
Cc: TBHeritage@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [TBHeritage] RE: Joe McGee



Dear Chris,



I may well be wrong, but I think that the colt (Joe McGhee) that you refer
to by Riley ex Hattie Harris (Marmaduke) may have actually been called Joe
Ullman.



Kind Regards,



Roy Hadley





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Dear Chris,

I may well be wrong, but I think that the colt (Joe McGhee) that you refer to by
Riley ex Hattie Harris (Marmaduke) may have actually been called Joe Ullman.

Kind Regards,

Roy Hadley

   ----- Original Message -----
   From: C.A.Matthes
   To: TBHeritage@yahoogroups.com
   Sent: Wednesday, April 18, 2012 3:41 PM
   Subject: [TBHeritage] RE: Joe McGee



   > In 1904 a Thoroughbred named Mcgee or Joe Mcgee raced on the Elm Ridge, KS
   track, May 2nd.

   Does anyone know his breeding or where I can find it?

   I believe he is the horse that sired a stallion called Young Diamond in KS,
   that sired a mare that foal in KS in 1914.

   There is the following colt named Joe McGee:

   Joe McGee 1897 bc by Riley

   Hattie Harris 1880 brf by Marmaduke

   Pirouette by Harvey Villian

   Chris

   [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Thanks Chris

 
Bruce


>________________________________
> From: C.A.Matthes <camatthes@...>
>To: TBHeritage@yahoogroups.com
>Sent: Wednesday, April 18, 2012 9:41 AM
>Subject: [TBHeritage] RE: Joe McGee
>
>
> 
>> In 1904 a Thoroughbred named Mcgee or Joe Mcgee raced on the Elm Ridge, KS
>track, May 2nd.
>
>Does anyone know his breeding or where I can find it?
>
>I believe he is the horse that sired a stallion called Young Diamond in KS,
>that sired a mare that foal in KS in 1914.
>
>There is the following colt named Joe McGee:
>
>Joe McGee 1897 bc by Riley
>
>Hattie Harris 1880 brf by Marmaduke
>
>Pirouette by Harvey Villian
>
>Chris
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

One Reference on “Joe McGee” in the  5th paragraph at:
http://kdl.kyvl.org/cgi/t/text/pageviewer-idx?c=drf1900s;cc=drf1900s;g=drf;xc=1;\
q1=Joe%20Mcgee;rgn=full%20text;idno=drf1903072101;didno=drf1903072101;view=pdf;s\
eq=1_2;node=drf1903072101%3A1.2;passterms=1
 
Another Reference on “Joe McGee” in the  1st paragraph at:
http://kdl.kyvl.org/cgi/t/text/pageviewer-idx?c=drf1890s;cc=drf1890s;g=drf;xc=1;\
q1=Joe%20Mcgee;rgn=full%20text;idno=drf1899071101;didno=drf1899071101;view=pdf;s\
eq=1_3;node=drf1899071101%3A1.3;passterms=1

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Thanks very much, Anne.


I hadn't seen this either. In fact, I was under the impression that publication
was still pending. Shows ya how much I know!

Cheers,
Sandy



________________________________
  From: Anne Peters <pedgoddess@...>
To: TBHeritage@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, April 17, 2012 11:59 AM
Subject: Re: [TBHeritage] re: Bend Or was Tadcaster

Here's a link to Tony's article

http://www.ownerbreeder.co.uk/2011/05/tony-morris-may-2011/

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Dear TBHeritage members:
�
The following film:
http://www.britishpathe.com/video/st-leger-aka-st-leger-won-by-caligula
features the 1920 St. Leger Stakes who was won by the gray CALIGULA (1917).

I suppose that SPION KOP, winner of that year's Epsom Derby, who sported a
blaze and 4 white leg markings, is the horse that it is shown parading third
previous
to the�race.

But the horse that really caught my attention is the horse parading fifth.
This one is sporting a bigger blaze and two high leg markings on his rear legs.

Can anyone identify this Thoroughbred?

Thanks for your assistance.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

While tracing a pedigree on the tb pedigree query site, I came across a most
unusual name; King Williams Barb Without A Tongue.  There isn't any info on him
in the database, but it sounds like there is a heck of a story behind this
moniker.

If pedantry may be pardoned, he's actually listed as King William's
Black Barb Without A Tongue
<http://www.pedigreequery.com/king+williams+black+barb+without+a+tongue>
.


--- In TBHeritage@yahoogroups.com, "Julie" <blinkbonny@...> wrote:
>
> While tracing a pedigree on the tb pedigree query site, I came across
a most unusual name; King Williams Barb Without A Tongue.  There isn't
any info on him in the database, but it sounds like there is a heck of a
story behind this moniker.
>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

*facepalm*  I forgot that one word. Still, I want to know if there is a story
behind the name.

--- In TBHeritage@yahoogroups.com, "tjcass7880" <tjcass7880@...> wrote:
>
> If pedantry may be pardoned, he's actually listed as King William's
> Black Barb Without A Tongue
> <http://www.pedigreequery.com/king+williams+black+barb+without+a+tongue>
> .
>
>
> --- In TBHeritage@yahoogroups.com, "Julie" <blinkbonny@> wrote:
> >
> > While tracing a pedigree on the tb pedigree query site, I came across
> a most unusual name; King Williams Barb Without A Tongue.  There isn't
> any info on him in the database, but it sounds like there is a heck of a
> story behind this moniker.
> >
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

If Double Bed's inbred doses were sporting high leg markings and blazes
everything is quite understandable.
See his pedigree at:
 
DOUBLE BED (Chestnut colt 1917)
http://www.pedigreequery.com/double+bed2


From: Jorge <egrojsiriorb@...>
To: Karen De Groote <iagenieme@...>
Cc: Jorge <egrojsiriorb@...>
Sent: Sunday, April 29, 2012 7:28 PM
Subject: 1920 St Leger: please identify this sabino


Karen,
 
Thank you so much for the photo of HANSEN. Wow, just the same as his owner
described him
with that chestnut mane (and perhaps the tail too). He is a real specimen! Hope
that when times comes
he becomes a colorful thrower. His strange gray version does not assure an
identical repetition at the breeding shed
because that was not the case with VIGORS who was even whiter than HANSEN but
at stud the former performed like
an ordinary normal gray.
 
As per the mysterious sabino colt, seems to me like frame 47 is the frame who
better betrays him.
But to me "frame-47" is showing the finish of the race not the early going.
According to my account the "frame-47" horse is arriving 10th at that time, in
which case, he must be DOUBLE BED.
Do you agree or have another view?
 
Can you please explain again to me your rationale for Abbots Trace?
Thank you so much for your valuable assistance.
 
Jorge
 
 
 

From: Karen De Groote <iagenieme@...>
To: egrojsiriorb@...
Sent: Sunday, April 29, 2012 5:08 AM
Subject: Re: [tbpedix] 1920 St Leger: please identify this sabino


Hello Jorge,
I was writing directly as I was going to disagree with you as to which horse you
are seeking.  This is what I started writing:  "Using the stills of the video,
the horse you want finished in the first flight of the race.  Clearly at least
5 horses were in the second flight to cross the finish line.  Although I can
only count 8 in the first flight, there might be one hiding or there is one way
behind the second flight of 5.  The picture at 47 seconds shows your horse. 
It is well past the finish line and he was still driving so although he is 3rd
at this point, I think he is Abbotts Trace, 6th at the wire. "  It was at that
point that I noticed the silks on the horse I thought you were seeking were all
light colored and this horse sported a brow band.  In going through the  rest
of the race I can see Oliviero, with the proper dark shirt silks, being nudged
out at the finish.  In the video however I would have never guessed Double Bed
to be
  chestnut as dark as he is but he has two chestnut parents so he must be. 

It is too bad they didn't video the entire post parade.  I wonder if there is a
list of the post parade somewhere, part of me thinks there are errors in some of
the data.  I believe there were 3 white faces in that race and would love to
see a pic of Abbott's Trace.  I went back in his pedigree and there were lots
of two white hind stockings if you ignore his parents and male line
grandparent. 

On another topic, yesterday I saw a photo of a young Hansen.  I have always
thought he was too white for his age and lo and behold, I do believe he is
extreme sabino with grey on top.  Here is the photo I found and thought of
you. 

Take good care and thanks for the mystery to solve...sorry I wasn't more astute
but I did enjoy the task. 
Karen


On Sun, Apr 29, 2012 at 1:38 AM, Jorge <egrojsiriorb@...> wrote:

 
>Thanks Lizz for your valuable assistance.
>Based on the following order of finish and the video itself,
> I am under the impression that the mystery horse must be,
>either OLIVIERO (who arrived 11th) or DOUBLE BED (who arrived 10th).
>Their pedigrees are also proving ellusive.
>Thanks for your assistance.
> 
>
>
>From: Lizz <oldfieldfarm@...>
>To: tbpedix@yahoogroups.com
>Sent: Saturday, April 28, 2012 7:30 PM
>Subject: [tbpedix] 1920 St Leger: please identify this sabino
>
>
> 
>1920 St Leger Stakes order of finish
>
>
>1. Caligula gr
>2. Silvern b
>3. Manton b
>4. Braishfield b
>5. Black Gauntlet bbr
>6. Abbots Trace ch
>7. The Alder b
>8. Orpheus br
>9. Stronghold b
>10. Double Bed ch
>11. Oliviero ch
>12. Allenby b
>13. Spion Kop b
>14. Daylight Patrol ch
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]