--kindly help me how to enter to our group activities with regards
narasimha rao- In contrarianlibrarian@yahoogroups.com, Todd
Krueger , 20 Jun 2004 01:44:23 EDT
> >   From: laurieshaina@a...
> >Subject: Re: Re: Are Panic Attacks any indication?
>
> *snip*
>
> >Interviews are at best deceitful.....they never tell
> >you the truth about what happened that caused the
> >vacancy and you try to put your best face forward
> >and tell them things you think they need to
> >know....but also you are interviewing them to see if
> >you will be a good fit there and avoid a horrendous
> >experience....
>
> I have to respectfully disagree that interviewers
> never tell you the truth.  I have been at a number of
> interviews wherein those interviewing me were quite
> direct (in some cases, possibly gave too much personal
> information) about why the person previously in the
> position is no longer in it.  Of course, there's no
> way to know for certain the entire truth as to why
> someone has left, but you can often ascertain whose
> decision it was (employee or employer).  Also, you
> have to take into account situations where the
> employee left for medical reasons, to start a family,
> to start a new career (after working at Broward PL?
> ;-)), etc.  Not everyone leaves a job because they've
> been forced out or because they're at their wit's end.
>
>
>
> >I learned at the end when they ask if you have any
> >questions....here's what to do to catch them off
> >guard....Try to only ask one or two quickies >like
> "when do you think you will be making the >decision"/
> "how many openings do you have or are you >creating a
> list"/ are there any in house candidates( >this is an
> important one) because a lot of times >they are just
> going through the motions of >interviewing and they
> have already selected the >candidate in house because
> the devil they know is >better than the one they
> don't...remember personnel >staff are not exactly
> intuitive.
>
> >But here is the BEST question that has saved me
> >several times from moving to a worse disaster
> >situation than the one I was presently in......"Give
> >me a general idea of what it would be like to work
> >here lets say for a week"   I have had some amazing
> >and horrifying revealing answers with this
> >one....one director broke down in tears and told me
> >that the only staff they had were the 3 people
> >interviewing me. They were about to open a 35,000
> >square foot new facility that had 3 floors and no
> >money was left to hire staff for the next FIVE
> >years!!
>
> I heartily agree that these are all good questions to
> ask.  Frequently you can tell by the end of the
> interview if it's an organization that you'd want to
> join, even if you are offered the job.  Clearly if you
> aren't currently working, you don't always have the
> luxury of turning down an offer; but nothing is worse
> than knowing you've set yourself up for disaster.
>
> Todd Krueger
> Director
> Lyon Township Public Library
> New Hudson MI 48165
>
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages!
> http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail

Perhaps they would have been better off forming a consortium and leaving the
libraries with some independence.

Judy Anderson
Tillamook, OR
Visible and Vocal Librarian
www.cafeshops.com/vavlibrarian




>From: laurieshaina@...

;As a former BCL employee I am blown away (and saddened)at this survey. They
>were Library Of the Year what happened???? I know Sam Morrison retired
was it
>this year? The thing to point out to temper some of this for those not
familiar
>with BCL is that there are 45(Plus) libraries there, 4 regionals(are
there
>more now?) a downtown branch that is 8 stories high and at the time I
was there
>almost 1,000 employees and a great many of them are unionized.
>Now the question is this.....when does a system get too large and
>unmanageable---so that things begin to break down(communication)
>the county gobbled up all the independent, contract and municipal
libraries
>and became huge.....is there a message  here? The larger you become
without
>proper leadership the more difficult to please everyone.....thoughts
from
>anyone?? The other problem I recall at the time I left was that the
library had lost
>control of hiring and it was being handled by the head of county
personnel,
>Phillip somebody and he once said to all of us at a meeting that his
answer to
>anyone not liking the job reclass(at the time) was "attrition"
or in other
>words if we didn't like it we could quit and that would take care of the
>problem...is it still like that?? It makes me sad
>to hear this....
&

_________________________________________________________________
Make the most of your family vacation with tips from the MSN Family Travel
Guide! http://dollar.msn.com

Of interest... at the web link
http://www.lisnews.com/articles/04/07/05/0758255.shtml?tid=31

    BFD (Score:2)
    by mdoneil (2301) <reversethis-{xc.lieno} {ta} {swensil}> on Monday July 05,
    @06:36PM (#8310)
    ( http://oneil.cx/MT3/blog/ | Last Journal: Sunday July 04, @10:49PM )
    [pix.gif]
    I refuse to relinquish my TV remote to Communist control.

    It is quite easy to take a stand when there is very little risk. If the FBI
has
    yet to acquire library records it is a safe bet that the Boston library
director
    won't risk a great deal by taking this position.

    However if the library is presented with a properly executed subpoena or
warrant
    I doubt the decision will be made by the director to release the records. I
am
    certain the City of Boston has a legal department that can assess the
validity
    of either court order and act appropriately. To be truthful the director
would
    have little input unless the city moved to quash the subpoena. Warrants are
more
    immediate and I doubt the city legal department would advise the library
    director to interfere with the execution of a judicially authorized warrant.

    This is an example of more rhetoric and little action. If the director is so
    opposed to the Act perhaps he could detail for us the work he has done to
effect
    its repeal - the letters he has written to his representatives, the
information
    he has provided to elected officials regarding the Act's effect on the
library,
    any constructive work he has done. Grandstanding makes one look good but it
does
    little to change the status quo.

    N.B. The Boston library director may have worked diligently to overturn those
    portions of the Act which he finds offensive, I did not check. He may have
    contated his representatives and done other constructive work. In the intrest
of
    fairness I must disclose that I did not make an effort to find out if he did.
I
    would of course welcome his input on what actions he took.

http://www.lisnews.com/articles/04/07/05/0758255.shtml?tid=31

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    Library Chief May Refuse to Give Feds Patron Info

    posted by Ieleen on Monday July 05, @08:47AM -57 hits    Print This Story
    Email This Story To A Friend
    from the hidden-agendas dept.
    [pix.gif]

                                                                        Patriot
Act

    The Director of the Boston Public Library says he "would consider breaking
the
    Patriot Act if asked to disclose patron information." He goes on to say that
    "Clearly, the challenge for people like me who believe in librarianship and
the
    principles of free speech means if I were to receive such a request, I would
    have to give very strong consideration to going public with that." According
to
    the ALA, "they are not aware of any case in which the FBI has sought data on
    library patrons." Read More.
    [pix.gif]

     <  San Jose Library Launches Library Consulting Business | Building of
Library
                        was Controversial Issue Back in 1904  >

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    Library Chief May Refuse to Give Feds Patron Info | Log in/Create an Account
|
    Top | 3 comments | Search Discussion
    Click the Reply button to leave your comments.
    Threshold: [0: 3 comments.] [Threaded...] [Oldest First.................]
Change
    Reply
    The Fine Print: The following comments are owned by whoever posted them. We
are
    not responsible for them in any way.
    Except... (Score:1, Funny)
    by Anonymous Patron on Monday July 05, @09:51AM (#8296)
    [pix.gif]
    He'll refuse to release any patron information except for Don Saklad's...:)
    [pix.gif]
    [ Reply to This ]

    Leadership. Mayoral directive. City council order. (Score:0)
    by Anonymous Patron on Monday July 05, @11:36AM (#8300)
    [pix.gif]
    Dear Bernie Margolis, Thank you for your active intellectual freedom
leadership
    !
    Please consider advocating for the mayoral directive and the city council
order
    that actually works for the more routine transmittal of city public documents
to
    the Gail Fithian Boston Public Library Government Documents Department.
    [pix.gif]
    [ Reply to This ]

    BFD (Score:2)
    by mdoneil (2301) <reversethis-{xc.lieno} {ta} {swensil}> on Monday July 05,
    @06:36PM (#8310)
    ( http://oneil.cx/MT3/blog/ | Last Journal: Sunday July 04, @10:49PM )
    [pix.gif]
    I refuse to relinquish my TV remote to Communist control.

    It is quite easy to take a stand when there is very little risk. If the FBI
has
    yet to acquire library records it is a safe bet that the Boston library
director
    won't risk a great deal by taking this position.

    However if the library is presented with a properly executed subpoena or
warrant
    I doubt the decision will be made by the director to release the records. I
am
    certain the City of Boston has a legal department that can assess the
validity
    of either court order and act appropriately. To be truthful the director
would
    have little input unless the city moved to quash the subpoena. Warrants are
more
    immediate and I doubt the city legal department would advise the library
    director to interfere with the execution of a judicially authorized warrant.

    This is an example of more rhetoric and little action. If the director is so
    opposed to the Act perhaps he could detail for us the work he has done to
effect
    its repeal - the letters he has written to his representatives, the
information
    he has provided to elected officials regarding the Act's effect on the
library,
    any constructive work he has done. Grandstanding makes one look good but it
does
    little to change the status quo.

    N.B. The Boston library director may have worked diligently to overturn those
    portions of the Act which he finds offensive, I did not check. He may have
    contated his representatives and done other constructive work. In the intrest
of
    fairness I must disclose that I did not make an effort to find out if he did.
I
    would of course welcome his input on what actions he took.
    [pix.gif]
    [ Reply to This ]





    [pix.gif]
    Powered By LISHost.com "I'm not trying to be a fanatic about the wrongdoings
of
    the devil," Wanda Mella said, "but what we're talking about is obscene."
    Parents Want Occult Titles Banned from School Libraries [slashlogo.gif]
    [pix.gif]

    [ home | contribute story | older articles | past polls | faq | authors |
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http://www.lisnews.com/articles/04/07/05/0758255.shtml?tid=31

Of interest... at the web link
http://www.lisnews.com/articles/04/07/05/0758255.shtml?tid=31

    BFD (Score:2)
    by mdoneil (2301) <reversethis-{xc.lieno} {ta} {swensil}> on Monday July 05,
    @06:36PM (#8310)
    ( http://oneil.cx/MT3/blog/ | Last Journal: Sunday July 04, @10:49PM )
    [pix.gif]
    I refuse to relinquish my TV remote to Communist control.

    It is quite easy to take a stand when there is very little risk. If the FBI
has
    yet to acquire library records it is a safe bet that the Boston library
director
    won't risk a great deal by taking this position.

    However if the library is presented with a properly executed subpoena or
warrant
    I doubt the decision will be made by the director to release the records. I
am
    certain the City of Boston has a legal department that can assess the
validity
    of either court order and act appropriately. To be truthful the director
would
    have little input unless the city moved to quash the subpoena. Warrants are
more
    immediate and I doubt the city legal department would advise the library
    director to interfere with the execution of a judicially authorized warrant.

    This is an example of more rhetoric and little action. If the director is so
    opposed to the Act perhaps he could detail for us the work he has done to
effect
    its repeal - the letters he has written to his representatives, the
information
    he has provided to elected officials regarding the Act's effect on the
library,
    any constructive work he has done. Grandstanding makes one look good but it
does
    little to change the status quo.

    N.B. The Boston library director may have worked diligently to overturn those
    portions of the Act which he finds offensive, I did not check. He may have
    contated his representatives and done other constructive work. In the intrest
of
    fairness I must disclose that I did not make an effort to find out if he did.
I
    would of course welcome his input on what actions he took.

http://www.lisnews.com/articles/04/07/05/0758255.shtml?tid=31

    #Librarian and Information Science News Search LISNews.com LISNews.com RSS
    LISNews.com (Articles) RSS

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    Library Chief May Refuse to Give Feds Patron Info

    posted by Ieleen on Monday July 05, @08:47AM -57 hits    Print This Story
    Email This Story To A Friend
    from the hidden-agendas dept.
    [pix.gif]

                                                                        Patriot
Act

    The Director of the Boston Public Library says he "would consider breaking
the
    Patriot Act if asked to disclose patron information." He goes on to say that
    "Clearly, the challenge for people like me who believe in librarianship and
the
    principles of free speech means if I were to receive such a request, I would
    have to give very strong consideration to going public with that." According
to
    the ALA, "they are not aware of any case in which the FBI has sought data on
    library patrons." Read More.
    [pix.gif]

     <  San Jose Library Launches Library Consulting Business | Building of
Library
                        was Controversial Issue Back in 1904  >

                  Click the reply button below to leave your comments.



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    [pix.gif]

    Library Chief May Refuse to Give Feds Patron Info | Log in/Create an Account
|
    Top | 3 comments | Search Discussion
    Click the Reply button to leave your comments.
    Threshold: [0: 3 comments.] [Threaded...] [Oldest First.................]
Change
    Reply
    The Fine Print: The following comments are owned by whoever posted them. We
are
    not responsible for them in any way.
    Except... (Score:1, Funny)
    by Anonymous Patron on Monday July 05, @09:51AM (#8296)
    [pix.gif]
    He'll refuse to release any patron information except for Don Saklad's...:)
    [pix.gif]
    [ Reply to This ]

    Leadership. Mayoral directive. City council order. (Score:0)
    by Anonymous Patron on Monday July 05, @11:36AM (#8300)
    [pix.gif]
    Dear Bernie Margolis, Thank you for your active intellectual freedom
leadership
    !
    Please consider advocating for the mayoral directive and the city council
order
    that actually works for the more routine transmittal of city public documents
to
    the Gail Fithian Boston Public Library Government Documents Department.
    [pix.gif]
    [ Reply to This ]

    BFD (Score:2)
    by mdoneil (2301) <reversethis-{xc.lieno} {ta} {swensil}> on Monday July 05,
    @06:36PM (#8310)
    ( http://oneil.cx/MT3/blog/ | Last Journal: Sunday July 04, @10:49PM )
    [pix.gif]
    I refuse to relinquish my TV remote to Communist control.

    It is quite easy to take a stand when there is very little risk. If the FBI
has
    yet to acquire library records it is a safe bet that the Boston library
director
    won't risk a great deal by taking this position.

    However if the library is presented with a properly executed subpoena or
warrant
    I doubt the decision will be made by the director to release the records. I
am
    certain the City of Boston has a legal department that can assess the
validity
    of either court order and act appropriately. To be truthful the director
would
    have little input unless the city moved to quash the subpoena. Warrants are
more
    immediate and I doubt the city legal department would advise the library
    director to interfere with the execution of a judicially authorized warrant.

    This is an example of more rhetoric and little action. If the director is so
    opposed to the Act perhaps he could detail for us the work he has done to
effect
    its repeal - the letters he has written to his representatives, the
information
    he has provided to elected officials regarding the Act's effect on the
library,
    any constructive work he has done. Grandstanding makes one look good but it
does
    little to change the status quo.

    N.B. The Boston library director may have worked diligently to overturn those
    portions of the Act which he finds offensive, I did not check. He may have
    contated his representatives and done other constructive work. In the intrest
of
    fairness I must disclose that I did not make an effort to find out if he did.
I
    would of course welcome his input on what actions he took.
    [pix.gif]
    [ Reply to This ]





    [pix.gif]
    Powered By LISHost.com "I'm not trying to be a fanatic about the wrongdoings
of
    the devil," Wanda Mella said, "but what we're talking about is obscene."
    Parents Want Occult Titles Banned from School Libraries [slashlogo.gif]
    [pix.gif]

    [ home | contribute story | older articles | past polls | faq | authors |
quotes
                                    | preferences ]
http://www.lisnews.com/articles/04/07/05/0758255.shtml?tid=31

Hello!
Some of y'all might know of the wonderful Yahoo Group LALIBJOBS that
is administered by my hard-working former SLIS schoolmate Vicki
Nesting (Yay, Vicki!)
Anyway, she posted this job opening that might be of interest to
those who are seeking a work-at-home type of situation.
I thought I might post the info here.
Have Fun!
Maggie Collins
o_coileain@...
Baton Rouge, LA

Account Manager, Client Services
WebFeat, Inc.


WebFeat is seeking an energetic and vibrant Account Manager to work
with clients to implement their federated search systems. The ideal
candidate will have knowledge of the library/information industry and
the ability to manage the client experience, making it a rewarding,
positive and progressive one. WebFeat is a virtual company, enabling
its employees to work from home.

Responsibilities:

In this full time position, the Client Services Account Manager has
overall responsibility for providing full service implementation for
the client's federated search system. Specific responsibilities
include: ensuring client satisfaction, managing the day-to-day client
relationships for assigned clients, diagnosing customer problems,
providing issue resolution and identifying and tracking product
enhancement requests. Reports to Director, Client Services.

Qualifications:

MLS preferred; BA/BS required; library experience a must.
Understanding of UI and information delivery.
Understanding of electronic databases; library OPACs.
JavaScript knowledge; HTML knowledge; Proficient with MS Office.
Ease in understanding and rapidly learning new concepts in technology.
Experience working with audiences with varying levels of technical
understanding.
Excellent written and verbal communication skills.
Great attention to detail and strong multi-task and organizational
skills.

WebFeat is the developer of the remarkable WebFeat Prism, used by over
1,000 leading public, academic, and corporate libraries, including
more than half of the top 20 U.S. public libraries. Other products
include the WebFeat Usage Tracker (WUT) and the WebFeat Authentication
Manager (WAM). Originally founded in 1992 as an information technology
consultancy, WebFeat has earned industry recognition from leading
organizations such as Gartner and Library Journal.

Compensation: base salary commensurate with experience and
qualifications + bonus, stock plan, and health insurance.
Please email resumes to jobs@....

--- contrarianlibrarian@yahoogroups.com wrote:

>> Message: 1
>    Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 18:24:47 -0000
>    From: "magnoire124" <o_coileain@...>
> Subject: Job

[snip]

> WebFeat is seeking an energetic and vibrant Account
> Manager to work
> with clients to implement their federated search
> systems.

[snip]

Great job, I'm sure, but poor product.  My library
purchased WebFeat.  How do we reference librarians
hate it?  Let me count the ways.  Maybe other
libraries took a different approach with it, but the
way we installed it, it becomes a barrier, not a
shortcut.

We have so many different databases that a federated
search (WebFeat simultaneously searches across
multiple databases) is actually useless, especially
because different databases have different search
structures.

Searching a newspaper database for one obituary is not
the same as searching a business database for all
widget makers in Wisconsin.  Using WebFeat for the
latter turns up nothing, because a keyword search, as
per Google, doesn't search across the very specific
fields in complex business databases.  In other words,
WebFeat delivers false negatives.

We reference librarians now routinely click through
lots of confusing screens, designed in-house (alas),
to exit WebFeat and deliver our users directly to the
one database they need.

I would recommend WebFeat to special libraries that
specialize in one subject, like medicine or law.
There, it makes perfect sense to search across all of
your medical databases for this diagnosis or that medication.




__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage!
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail

Webfeat to us public reference librarians where I work now is commonly known
as BIG FOOT for the very same reasons you suggested ...too cumbersome


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I would prefer that my (mdoneil) writings from other websites not be
reposted.  I prefer that they be read in the context in which they
were written.

I am not clear why someone would find it necessary to repost entire
comments. Perhaps a link to the comment if one felt it absolutely
necessary to direct others to what I have written.

I would appreciate it if you would respect my inherent copyright and
not reproduce my works.  If I wish to post them in other places I
will post them there myself.  Normally I would not mind but the (re)
poster maintains a unique perspective and I don't wish to have my
views confused with those of anyone else.  My views are my own, and
although you may agree, please voice your own opinions.

What precipitated this remark???? Since joining this listserv I have been a
little dismayed at excerpted comments that I have made which were not very
volatile to invite censorship( and yo, that is in essence what it amounts
to...isn't it?) but reposting elsewhere......please explain....of course, THIS
will
never be posted in its entirety will it?  HMMMM....


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I'm not sure what to think of this:
  http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/3897583.stm
  <<BBC NEWS  Technology  Robots get bookish in libraries.url>>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sorry for the x-post, but I wanted to throw a wide
net.

I have a friend who maybe offered a circ supervisor
job (non MLIS) at a small college in western Illinois
on the river near Moline/Davenport, IA.  Its a good
job, full time with benefits, but the job only pays
$8.40 an hour

So the job is about 15,000 per year--pre taxes.
Crap pay indeed, but there is the siren song of
benefits.

Right now she's doing some planning for monthly
budgeting and she had a couple of questions
1.  Typically what does a circ supervisor--overseeing
students but not in charge, in change--at a small
college make, roughly?

2.  What percentage typically is taken out of one's
check for tax purposes?

3.  Typically how big a bite does health insurance
take out of one's pay assuming--single, no dependents?

4.  In negotiation, typically how big a bump in salary
can one push it without being unrealistic?  Could she
ask for 12/hr so that she could bargain down to
10.50/hr? or would that make them drop her for another
candidate?


Thanks folks

=====
--
Christopher Aka The Curmudgeony Librarian
http://www.geocities.com/curmudgeony_librarian
Grace L. Ferguson Library, Airline, & Screen Door Company
South Buddha, Wisconsin




__________________________________
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Vote for the stars of Yahoo!'s next ad campaign!
http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/yahoo/votelifeengine/

--- In contrarianlibrarian@yahoogroups.com, laurieshaina@a... wrote:
> What precipitated this remark????  Message 407 precipitated my
comment.

Your friend has applied (or perhaps been offered) an
hourly job.  This isn't a professional job with all
the hidden attributes being called a professional in a
field.  It's an hourly thing, like flipping burgers or
washing cars or (dare I say) mopping floors.

The chances of a university negotiating with an hourly
person on their hourly rate are somewhere between
zilch and nada.  For one thing, there are probably
fairly strict guidelines for her manager about hourly
salaries, and keeping them in parity with other people
on campus.

Good luck to her, but .... she has zippo chance of
getting what she wants.



> 4.  In negotiation, typically how big a bump in
> salary
> can one push it without being unrealistic?  Could
> she
> ask for 12/hr so that she could bargain down to
> 10.50/hr? or would that make them drop her for
> another
> candidate?
>
>
> Thanks folks
>
> =====
> --
> Christopher Aka The Curmudgeony Librarian
> http://www.geocities.com/curmudgeony_librarian
> Grace L. Ferguson Library, Airline, & Screen Door
> Company
> South Buddha, Wisconsin
>
>
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Hypocritical self styled intellectual freedom advocate librarians can
be unfair in their own practices when intellectual freedom is involved.

Around the web we find library related listserver forums where censoring
is done without objection.

For example at http://listserv.dom.edu/archives/stumpers-l.html
the moderator censors contributors with whom others disagree.

Please include something in the revision to the saa code of ethics that
addresses the unfair practices of Robert Schmidt in censoring
the listserv forum at http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/archives.html


Reference
Comments sought on proposed revision to
society of american archivists code of ethics
http://archivists.org/news/ethics.asp



Cc:
Miami University board
Wall Street Journal
Robert Schmidt
SAA Council

Why do libraries have rules if the staff gets in trouble for trying
to enforce them?

I 'reminded' a patron the other day that we had a policy about only
printing ten pages at the internet stations (we don't charge). He got
mad and complained to the director, and I got called on the carpet
for telling him not to print more than ten pages!

Or the no food and drink policy. Again, the patron complained that I
said anything, and I got chastised!

It's not that I say these things rudely (my co-workers will back me
up on this) it's just that the Admin takes the patron's words over
the staff!

Frustrating!

If your friend has an offer on the table (and make sure it's
official) then she has nothing to lose by asking, IMHO.

ms



--- In contrarianlibrarian@yahoogroups.com, Christopher
<curmudgeony_librarian@y...> wrote:
> Sorry for the x-post, but I wanted to throw a wide
> net.
>
> I have a friend who maybe offered a circ supervisor
> job (non MLIS) at a small college in western Illinois
> on the river near Moline/Davenport, IA.  Its a good
> job, full time with benefits, but the job only pays
> $8.40 an hour
>
> So the job is about 15,000 per year--pre taxes.
> Crap pay indeed, but there is the siren song of
> benefits.
>
> Right now she's doing some planning for monthly
> budgeting and she had a couple of questions
> 1.  Typically what does a circ supervisor--overseeing
> students but not in charge, in change--at a small
> college make, roughly?
>
> 2.  What percentage typically is taken out of one's
> check for tax purposes?
>
> 3.  Typically how big a bite does health insurance
> take out of one's pay assuming--single, no dependents?
>
> 4.  In negotiation, typically how big a bump in salary
> can one push it without being unrealistic?  Could she
> ask for 12/hr so that she could bargain down to
> 10.50/hr? or would that make them drop her for another
> candidate?
>
>
> Thanks folks
>
> =====
> --
> Christopher Aka The Curmudgeony Librarian
http://www.geocities.com/curmudgeony_librarian
> Grace L. Ferguson Library, Airline, & Screen Door Company
> South Buddha, Wisconsin
>
>
>
>
> __________________________________
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> Vote for the stars of Yahoo!'s next ad campaign!
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--- sirjimce <J_C_Elliott@...> wrote:

> Why do libraries have rules if the staff gets in
> trouble for trying
> to enforce them?
>
So the administration can enforce them when/if it ever
chooses to do so?

> I 'reminded' a patron the other day that we had a
> policy about only
> printing ten pages at the internet stations (we
> don't charge). He got
> mad and complained to the director, and I got called
> on the carpet
> for telling him not to print more than ten pages!
>
> Or the no food and drink policy. Again, the patron
> complained that I
> said anything, and I got chastised!
>
> It's not that I say these things rudely (my
> co-workers will back me
> up on this) it's just that the Admin takes the
> patron's words over
> the staff!
>
So the administration can build chits with the public
looking like the 'good guy' against the peon staffers?

> Frustrating!
>
But not necessarily unreasonable to understand, given
the general tenor of many library administrators?
>
>

We have a situation...where we have a homeless person (man) who basically
lives in our back parking lot and then comes inside our library to wash up,
sleep, spread his medication out on the tables, scare and yell at children. He
has
even brought us dead flowers from a dumpster and old stale bread as presents.
He smells, yells and frightens staff and patrons. Yet after repeated
conversations with our supervisor, they want to deflect it onto us to tell him
that if
he keeps it up he will be banned. I'm sure everyone is more than a little
afraid of him, but we feel like this supervisor wants to toss his job back onto
us
to do(he does this frequently) Police basically just say its a civil matter
and don't seem to want to enforce vagrancy laws here.  Have any of you been in
a similar situation and how did you handle it. Keeping in mind that our
supervisor's boss our Director is virtually unapproachable too and may even  be
telling him to do this so the onus is off of administration in case it backfires
and he gets violent. It seems rather hopeless. Help!


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Dang! It happened again today!
I was told that if a person has over $10 in fines, they cannot check
out any more materials unless they at least pay something off on
their account. The patron today had over $30, and when I told her
this, I was told by my co-workers, "oh, you have to be more
forgiving. If you tell them they can't check out anything because of
fines, they'll stop coming to the library and won't bring their books
back. We'd rather have them come in and bring back their books, and
forgive at least half the fine, rather than loose the fines AND the
books."

Ok, so why do they tell us to say this, and then say we shouldn't say
it when we do?

I feel like the deck is stacked against me and I can't win any way I
cut the cards.

--- In contrarianlibrarian@yahoogroups.com, "sirjimce"
<J_C_Elliott@m...> wrote:
> Why do libraries have rules if the staff gets in trouble for trying
> to enforce them?
>
> I 'reminded' a patron the other day that we had a policy about only
> printing ten pages at the internet stations (we don't charge). He
got
> mad and complained to the director, and I got called on the carpet
> for telling him not to print more than ten pages!
>
> Or the no food and drink policy. Again, the patron complained that
I
> said anything, and I got chastised!
>
> It's not that I say these things rudely (my co-workers will back me
> up on this) it's just that the Admin takes the patron's words over
> the staff!
>
> Frustrating!

Do patrons have a way to complain about library services or
policies?  (i.e. like comment cards, an online form on the website,
etc. etc? )  When a patron complains about this homeless man, you
could direct them to the comment cards or the website.   Those can
sometimes be a great way to get the administration's attention.  We
do that at my library when a patron has a problem with something
assinine that the administraton has done.   You could even give the
patron the e-mail address of the Director, though this could backfire
on you.

Another option - and this is risky - is to anonymously contact
someone the Library Board of Trustees, preferably a board member who
has a keen interest in the public's perception of the library
(hopefully you have a board member like that)

ms

--- In contrarianlibrarian@yahoogroups.com, laurieshaina@a... wrote:
> We have a situation...where we have a homeless person (man) who
basically
> lives in our back parking lot and then comes inside our library to
wash up,
> sleep, spread his medication out on the tables, scare and yell at
children. He has
> even brought us dead flowers from a dumpster and old stale bread as
presents.
> He smells, yells and frightens staff and patrons. Yet after
repeated
> conversations with our supervisor, they want to deflect it onto us
to tell him that if
> he keeps it up he will be banned. I'm sure everyone is more than a
little
> afraid of him, but we feel like this supervisor wants to toss his
job back onto us
> to do(he does this frequently) Police basically just say its a
civil matter
> and don't seem to want to enforce vagrancy laws here.  Have any of
you been in
> a similar situation and how did you handle it. Keeping in mind that
our
> supervisor's boss our Director is virtually unapproachable too and
may even  be
> telling him to do this so the onus is off of administration in case
it backfires
> and he gets violent. It seems rather hopeless. Help!
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

All this discussion about RULES and such raise a major
professional question -- one that is very seldom
answered.  Usually people fudge answering the question
because they don't want to appear unfeeling or
politically uncorrect.

SINCE WHEN has the library taken over the role of
"social agency of last resort"?  Homeless?  Sick?
Poor?  Hungry?  Destitute?  Red Cross ran out of
money?  No proble, the library - those nice people -
will understand and help.

That's a crock.  We're professional librarians, not
social workers or English teachers.  We find
information for people, but we don't clean up their
guano.

Some libraries have eagerly embraced the concept of
"social welfare agency" - probably to legitimize their
continued sucking from the public teat.

For that matter, when did the mission of libraries
become "free interenet"?

We need to rethink things.




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-----Original Message-----
From: Chip Chop Plip Plop [mailto:kop001@...]
Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 2004 3:59 PM
To: contrarianlibrarian@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [contrarianlibrarian] Digest Number 162




Some libraries have eagerly embraced the concept of
"social welfare agency" - probably to legitimize their
continued sucking from the public teat.
[Wilson, Bruce]
I would ask, if public libraries did not 'suck on the public teat', how
would they be funded?  By membership dues?  But they wouldn't be
'public' libraries, then, would they, but private subscription
libraries?  There's nothing wrong with private subscription libraries;
they certainly have their place.  But public libraries are supposed to
be that, PUBLIC, providing library and information services to ALL
members of their communities. [Wilson,Bruce]

For that matter, when did the mission of libraries
become "free interenet"?
[Wilson, Bruce] First you say that our mission is to provide
information, then you say that we shouldn't provide Internet access.
Which is it? In case you have been living in a cave for the last 15 to
20 years, one of the most powerful information sources nowadays is the
Internet.[Wilson, Bruce]




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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

You forgot "before/after school day care". One of our beloved county
commissioners just announced that he wants the library to be a safe
place where parents can drop off their children on the way to work
and have children come to the library where parents can pick them up
after work.

Um, I know my daughter and her friends gets $15 an hour for
babysitting, I don't get that as a librarian, but if I'm going to be
a child minder, I want it in addition to my librarian pay.

--- In contrarianlibrarian@yahoogroups.com, Chip Chop Plip Plop
<kop001@y...> wrote:
> All this discussion about RULES and such raise a major
> professional question -- one that is very seldom
> answered.  Usually people fudge answering the question
> because they don't want to appear unfeeling or
> politically uncorrect.
>
> SINCE WHEN has the library taken over the role of
> "social agency of last resort"?  Homeless?  Sick?
> Poor?  Hungry?  Destitute?  Red Cross ran out of
> money?  No proble, the library - those nice people -
> will understand and help.
>
> That's a crock.  We're professional librarians, not
> social workers or English teachers.  We find
> information for people, but we don't clean up their
> guano.
>
> Some libraries have eagerly embraced the concept of
> "social welfare agency" - probably to legitimize their
> continued sucking from the public teat.
>
> For that matter, when did the mission of libraries
> become "free interenet"?
>
> We need to rethink things.
>
>
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Mail is new and improved - Check it out!
> http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail

--- contrarianlibrarian@yahoogroups.com wrote:


> Message: 1
>    Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 12:59:06 -0700 (PDT)
>    From: Chip Chop Plip Plop <kop001@...>
> Subject: Re: Digest Number 162
>
> All this discussion about RULES and such raise a
> major
> professional question -- one that is very seldom
> answered.  Usually people fudge answering the
> question
> because they don't want to appear unfeeling or
> politically uncorrect.
>
> SINCE WHEN has the library taken over the role of
> "social agency of last resort"?  Homeless?  Sick?
> Poor?  Hungry?  Destitute?  Red Cross ran out of
> money?  No proble, the library - those nice people -
> will understand and help.
>
> That's a crock.  We're professional librarians, not
> social workers or English teachers.  We find
> information for people, but we don't clean up their
> guano.
>

Social workers and (certainly) English teachers
shouldn't be expected to put up with most of the
situations that you list, either.  As for cleaning up
their guano, a problem that too many libraries face is
not having a janitor, facilities manager, whatever,
because it's never been added to the budget.  No
teacher would be expected to clean a restroom, and no
librarian or for that matter, library staff should be
expected to do so, either.


> Some libraries have eagerly embraced the concept of
> "social welfare agency" - probably to legitimize
> their
> continued sucking from the public teat.
>

Are you suggesting that a privatization of now-public
libraries would help?


> For that matter, when did the mission of libraries
> become "free interenet"?
>

That's a valid question.  One argument is that for
those citizens who now think that libraries are
obsolete since the advent of the Internet, they feel
that those "less-fortunate" who can't afford Internet
access can (at least) use public libraries for that.

> We need to rethink things.

Perhaps, but you are so angry in your positions that
you should seriously rethink librarianship as a
profession and move into something else.



>
>
>
>
> __________________________________

>
>




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Or perhaps PUBLIC librarianship.  A nice Special Library, perhaps a
Corporate situation that did not 'suck at the public teat' might suit
him better than a public or even academic situation would.

-----Original Message-----
From: Todd Krueger [mailto:kruegertb@...]
Sent: Friday, August 20, 2004 8:42 AM
To: contrarianlibrarian@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [contrarianlibrarian] Digest Number 163



--- contrarianlibrarian@yahoogroups.com wrote:



> We need to rethink things.

Perhaps, but you are so angry in your positions that
you should seriously rethink librarianship as a
profession and move into something else.



>
>
>
>
> __________________________________

>
>




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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I don't recall seeing in the discription of the group that this was a
forum for only public librarians, but I very seldom have seen questions
involving academic or special libraries addressed here.  Was I mistaken?


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I think a lot of people are just buying into the B.S.
  Many public libraries have become a theatre of the
absurd.   For example, I asked my branch head a simple
question:  "Do we enforce the no food and drink
policy?"  She hemmed and hawed, and said that I had to
"understand that people are used to Borders and
coffeehouses" and that "you need to pick your
battles".  Beyond that, she refused to give me an
answer.  Later that day, the second-in-command was
walking through the building and a saw a patron with a
cup of coffee.  "Why aren't you enforcing the food and
drink policy???" she ranted.
   Ditto with disruptive behavior and everything else.
Management practically pees their pants at the idea of
telling someone they can't do something.  Then they
can't understand why there are problems.  It doesn't
take a rocket scientist to figure this out.  Several
times i nthr past decade, outside arbitrators have
been comissioned to "study" the problems. And they all
gave THE SAME COMMONS-SENSE RCOMMENDATIIONS, which
were ignored by the administration. Then a few years
later, another "study" is commissioned.  Jeez.
    People yammer about "taxpayers", but other public
agencies DO NOT operate this way.  Pull some of the
crap we see in libraries everyday in other public
agencies, such as the auto tag office or the
courthouse, and see how fast you get booted out.
     Acording to our Administration, employees are
responsible for enforcing all county policies.  If
your supervisor instructs you to disregard that
policy, which often happens, YOU are guilty of
disobeying policy, NOT your supervisor.   Yet, if you
disobey your superior, you are liable for a reprimand.
  The administration, of course, will not back you.
What absolute lunacy.   This makes Alice's Adventures
in Wonderland look like the epitome of logic.
   We have lost five librarians in three months.
Vacancies abound in the system.  Obviously, something
needs to be  "rethought"  when so many people choose
to leave.
   Come on people, get real.



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I'm amused at your collective responses.  I find
Bruce's labelling to be abhorrent -- if I don't fit
HIS idea of public service I should move to a
different job.  I would respond that public libraries
in 2004 have evolved to have a different mission than
public libraries in 1974. And this mission evolution
has taken place with very little professional thought.
  Yes, of course libraries are publicly funded, but are
we funded to babysit and clean up shit, or are we
funded to provide information?  I would contend that a
public library *should only* be doing information
work, and *not* babysitting or housing homeless or
drunks.

Further, Bruce equates "internet access" with
"information access".  I beg to differ.  Information
access means:  database searching, googling to site of
places that provide information for application.

Allowing the public access to (a) check email, (b)
play games (c) chat with their buddies or (d) examine
photographs of naked women (unless they are Rubens
historians) is NOT the role that libraries should
play.

Again, libraries fell into this new role as a way of
remaining "relevant" at a time when there is serious
competition for tax dollars.  In doing so, libraries
sold their souls and veered from their / our central
reason for existence.

Call me old fashioned.




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If you're clueless and spiteful, you may have a future
in library management.  True story:

Librarian manages a popular website on personal time
about leisure activity X, and it is considered
reliable by local experts on X.  It is free of ads,
pop-ups, etc.  Librarian never reveals or trades on
name of employer at site.  Librarian earns no income
from site.

Library website links to website on X for years.

Library suddenly balks at citing website X on patron
handout.

Library demands evidence that website X is
authoritative or peer-reviewed, even as staff rely on
it every day to answer questions about X.

No other website has ever been required to show peer
review or prove its authority in order to be added to
handouts or links page.   Nevertheless, librarian
supplies published articles recommending website X.

How many websites are so fortunate as to get noticed
in print?  If this is the standard for library
recognition, 99.9999% of the web is suddenly
off-limits.

The kicker is that this is a public library, not an
academic one.




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