What a wonderful Quest!

http://companionarts.org/songwithoutborders/

May we all find and sing our Song!

John Rogers

from Rainbow Hawk and Wind Eagle:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CHM8WqP4vzI&feature=player_embedded

John,
Have you ever met Rainbow Hawk and Wind Eagle?  I met them once through
Franz Nahrada in Vienna, Austria.  He's a great believer in the Medicine
Wheel.
Greetings from Chicago,
Andrius Kulikauskas


On 11/10/2010 08:01 AM, John Rogers wrote:
> from Rainbow Hawk and Wind Eagle:
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CHM8WqP4vzI&feature=player_embedded
>

Hi John,

I'm currently in Chicago, living in Grand Crossing and working as a
tutor in South Shore.

In my free time, I'm thinking about the ways I have figured things out,
about 200 so far.  I'm hoping they might be the basis for a culture of
independent thinkers, or in other words, Jesus's vision of the kingdom
of heaven.

Related to that, I'm writing a book "Math for Thinkers" for adult
self-learners.  Here are my notes:
http://www.helproom.org/Value/DeepIdeas
http://www.helproom.org/Value/MathForThinkers
I'd like to include many examples of mathematical thinking that arise in
analyzing our economic system.

Last week I met with Michael Lucci, a recent graduate who is very
interested in rethinking economics.  He is studying the Austrian
economists Friedrich Hayek and Ludwig von Mises.  So we'll be writing
and thinking about the principles of economics.   Here are some notes
from our meeting:
http://www.helproom.org/Value/Economics

In particular, I'd like to draw a conceptual map of the macro economy,
researching the total amounts of money and wealth in various forms
(stocks, bonds, loans, property, wages, taxes, etc.) and how they flow
in the economy.

I note that there is a "Toxic Textbooks" movement
http://www.toxictextbooks.com to write post-crisis economics textbooks.

Here's one helpful tool, the Wolfram Alpha answer engine, and an example
that Michael is interested in, the relationship between the prices of
gold and oil: http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=gold+vs+oil

I also alert Michael to Bernard Lietaer's book "The Future of Money"
http://www.lietaer.com
http://www.lietaer.com/writings/books/the-future-of-money/

I want my book and related learning materials to be in the Public
Domain, copyright-free.
http://www.helproom.org/Value/Open
I also want to make a living from this or related work.  I think that
should be possible, but will require great creativity and flexibility.
I appreciate ideas. Here are some directions I'm working on:
http://www.helproom.org/Value/BusinessIdeas

John, I'm curious to learn more about your interests.

Andrius

Andrius Kulikauskas
Minciu Sodas
ms@...
(773) 306-3807


On 11/02/2010 05:45 PM, jw wrote:
> Hi.  I am John Wassenaar.  I did some writing on this list a while ago,
> but have been silent for a while.  I am
> interested in the local currencies issue, wonder if anyone knows of
> groups or individuals working in this area in
> the midwestern US, preferably Chicago.  I have done some  reading, am an
> economist by training, so also know
> where the pot holes are.  Any help appreciated.
>
> JW
>
> On 6/22/2010 4:52 PM, John Rogers wrote:
>> Dear
>> community currency supporter
>>
>> We think you may be interested in a very special event this
>> summer.
>> Findhorn
>> Ecovillage in Scotland is hosting 'On The Money - a
>> Vision Quest to the
>> Heart of Local Money', a five day workshop
>> for local currency designers from
>> August 14-18, 2010.
>>
>> Why
>> now?
>> Local
>> money will play a critical role in the transition to the resilient
>> communities of the future.
>> A few community
>> currencies have succeeded and lasted decades. Many have
>> not sustained themselves.
>> After
>> thousands of experiments around the world it is
>> time to apply the lessons learned to create a new generation of
>> sustainable systems.
>>
>> What does the workshop cover?
>>
>> * Why, What,
>> How, Who, Where and When of community currencies.
>> * How to get
>> past
>> the initial enthusiasm and idealism to create a system that lasts.
>> * How to
>> choose
>> the best design features.
>> * How to involve
>> your community in the development process.
>> * The
>> workshop will be high on methodology,
>> low in ideology, as we critically engage with existing models and
>> systems to identify what works best for your own situation.
>>
>> Who
>> is leading it?
>> John Rogers and Jonathan Dawson, both experienced
>> community currency acitivists and teachers.
>> With guest contributions from Richard Douthwaite, Margrit Kennedy
>> and Bernard Lietaer and other community currency practitioners.
>>
>> We
>> will
>> learn together how to channel the idealism and enthusiasm driving
>> community
>> currrencies into using the right tools to do the job of design
>> properly and create
>> a quantum
>> shift in practice.
>> Please check out the short video about the
>> workshop here: http://www.valueforpeople.co.uk/findhornworkshop
>>
>> Full
>> workshop details here:
>> http://www.findhorncollege.com/proftraining/moneysoul.php
>>
>> We
>> hope you can join us!
>>
>> Best
>> wishes
>>
>> John
>> Rogers, Value for People
>> Jonathan Dawson, Findhorn Ecovillage
>>
>>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Each letter sent to cyfranogi@yahoogroups.com
> enters the PUBLIC DOMAIN whenever it does not state otherwise. 
http://www.ethicalpublicdomain.org
> Please be kind to our authors!
>
> Have a look at our wiki where we are creating an online learning environment
for community currency:
http://www.findbetterways.info/wiki.cgi?FindBetterWays/CommunityCurrency
>
>
> To Post a message, send it to:   cyfranogi@yahooGroups.com
> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
cyfranogi-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

No, I never met them, I just liked this link.

Here is another similar link I came across today about the death of a great
Mohawk leader who started a group called Trees of Peace:
http://www.treeofpeacesociety.info/


Best wishes from Germany

John


________________________________
From: Andrius Kulikauskas <ms@...>
To: cyfranogi@yahoogroups.com
Cc: John Rogers <atholl2003@...>; fightingpeacefully@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wed, 10 November, 2010 15:17:37
Subject: [fightingpeacefully] Re: The First Peace


John,
Have you ever met Rainbow Hawk and Wind Eagle?  I met them once through
Franz Nahrada in Vienna, Austria.  He's a great believer in the Medicine
Wheel.
Greetings from Chicago,
Andrius Kulikauskas

On 11/10/2010 08:01 AM, John Rogers wrote:
> from Rainbow Hawk and Wind Eagle:
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CHM8WqP4vzI&feature=player_embedded
>






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Nope.  Nor am I familiar with the medicine wheel
JW

On 11/10/2010 8:17 AM, Andrius Kulikauskas wrote:
>
> John,
> Have you ever met Rainbow Hawk and Wind Eagle? I met them once through
> Franz Nahrada in Vienna, Austria. He's a great believer in the Medicine
> Wheel.
> Greetings from Chicago,
> Andrius Kulikauskas
>
> On 11/10/2010 08:01 AM, John Rogers wrote:
> > from Rainbow Hawk and Wind Eagle:
> > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CHM8WqP4vzI&feature=player_embedded
> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CHM8WqP4vzI&feature=player_embedded>
> >
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi Andrius

I think you are replying to John Wassenaar's post below but I'll just butt in to
say that if you are 'rethinking economics' then forget about Hayek and von
Mises, whose ideas are partly responsible for current messes through blind
belief in unfettered, unregulated markets. Hayek's best idea was allowing a
multiplicity of currencies to challenge the current hegemony of government fiat
currencies.

Best places to start would be:
Hazel Henderson - one of the planet's finest systems thinkers:
http://www.hazelhenderson.com/

Glad to see you list Edward Fullbrook and Toxic Textbooks. Here's his paper 'How
to bring economics into the 3rd millennium by 2020':
http://www.paecon.net/PAEReview/issue54/Fullbrook54.pdf

It is on the site of the Post Autistic Economics Movement, started by French
economics students in 2000: http://www.paecon.net/

They publish a regular journal called Real World Economics
Review:http://www.paecon.net/PAEReview/

John Rogers




________________________________
From: Andrius Kulikauskas <ms@...>
To: cyfranogi@yahoogroups.com; livingbytruth@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wed, 10 November, 2010 16:15:52
Subject: [cyfranogi] Re: On The Money Local Currency - Chicago


Hi John,

I'm currently in Chicago, living in Grand Crossing and working as a
tutor in South Shore.

In my free time, I'm thinking about the ways I have figured things out,
about 200 so far.  I'm hoping they might be the basis for a culture of
independent thinkers, or in other words, Jesus's vision of the kingdom
of heaven.

Related to that, I'm writing a book "Math for Thinkers" for adult
self-learners.  Here are my notes:
http://www.helproom.org/Value/DeepIdeas
http://www.helproom.org/Value/MathForThinkers
I'd like to include many examples of mathematical thinking that arise in
analyzing our economic system.

Last week I met with Michael Lucci, a recent graduate who is very
interested in rethinking economics.  He is studying the Austrian
economists Friedrich Hayek and Ludwig von Mises.  So we'll be writing
and thinking about the principles of economics.   Here are some notes
from our meeting:
http://www.helproom.org/Value/Economics

In particular, I'd like to draw a conceptual map of the macro economy,
researching the total amounts of money and wealth in various forms
(stocks, bonds, loans, property, wages, taxes, etc.) and how they flow
in the economy.

I note that there is a "Toxic Textbooks" movement
http://www.toxictextbooks.com to write post-crisis economics textbooks.

Here's one helpful tool, the Wolfram Alpha answer engine, and an example
that Michael is interested in, the relationship between the prices of
gold and oil: http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=gold+vs+oil

I also alert Michael to Bernard Lietaer's book "The Future of Money"
http://www.lietaer.com
http://www.lietaer.com/writings/books/the-future-of-money/

I want my book and related learning materials to be in the Public
Domain, copyright-free.
http://www.helproom.org/Value/Open
I also want to make a living from this or related work.  I think that
should be possible, but will require great creativity and flexibility.
I appreciate ideas. Here are some directions I'm working on:
http://www.helproom.org/Value/BusinessIdeas

John, I'm curious to learn more about your interests.

Andrius

Andrius Kulikauskas
Minciu Sodas
ms@...
(773) 306-3807

On 11/02/2010 05:45 PM, jw wrote:
> Hi.  I am John Wassenaar.  I did some writing on this list a while ago,
> but have been silent for a while.  I am
> interested in the local currencies issue, wonder if anyone knows of
> groups or individuals working in this area in
> the midwestern US, preferably Chicago.  I have done some  reading, am an
> economist by training, so also know
> where the pot holes are.  Any help appreciated.
>
> JW
>
> On 6/22/2010 4:52 PM, John Rogers wrote:
>> Dear
>> community currency supporter
>>
>> We think you may be interested in a very special event this
>> summer.
>> Findhorn
>> Ecovillage in Scotland is hosting 'On The Money - a
>> Vision Quest to the
>> Heart of Local Money', a five day workshop
>> for local currency designers from
>> August 14-18, 2010.
>>
>> Why
>> now?
>> Local
>> money will play a critical role in the transition to the resilient
>> communities of the future.
>> A few community
>> currencies have succeeded and lasted decades. Many have
>> not sustained themselves.
>> After
>> thousands of experiments around the world it is
>> time to apply the lessons learned to create a new generation of
>> sustainable systems.
>>
>> What does the workshop cover?
>>
>> * Why, What,
>> How, Who, Where and When of community currencies.
>> * How to get
>> past
>> the initial enthusiasm and idealism to create a system that lasts.
>> * How to
>> choose
>> the best design features.
>> * How to involve
>> your community in the development process.
>> * The
>> workshop will be high on methodology,
>> low in ideology, as we critically engage with existing models and
>> systems to identify what works best for your own situation.
>>
>> Who
>> is leading it?
>> John Rogers and Jonathan Dawson, both experienced
>> community currency acitivists and teachers.
>> With guest contributions from Richard Douthwaite, Margrit Kennedy
>> and Bernard Lietaer and other community currency practitioners.
>>
>> We
>> will
>> learn together how to channel the idealism and enthusiasm driving
>> community
>> currrencies into using the right tools to do the job of design
>> properly and create
>> a quantum
>> shift in practice.
>> Please check out the short video about the
>> workshop here: http://www.valueforpeople.co.uk/findhornworkshop
>>
>> Full
>> workshop details here:
>> http://www.findhorncollege.com/proftraining/moneysoul.php
>>
>> We
>> hope you can join us!
>>
>> Best
>> wishes
>>
>> John
>> Rogers, Value for People
>> Jonathan Dawson, Findhorn Ecovillage
>>
>>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Each letter sent to cyfranogi@yahoogroups.com
> enters the PUBLIC DOMAIN whenever it does not state otherwise.
>http://www.ethicalpublicdomain.org
> Please be kind to our authors!
>
> Have a look at our wiki where we are creating an online learning environment
>for community currency:
>http://www.findbetterways.info/wiki.cgi?FindBetterWays/CommunityCurrency
>
>
> To Post a message, send it to: cyfranogi@yahooGroups.com
> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
>cyfranogi-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links
>
>
>
>







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On Thu, Nov 11, 2010 at 11:31 PM, John Rogers <atholl2003@...>wrote:

>
>
> Hi Andrius
>
> I think you are replying to John Wassenaar's post below but I'll just butt
> in to
> say that if you are 'rethinking economics' then forget about Hayek and von
> Mises, whose ideas are partly responsible for current messes through blind
> belief in unfettered, unregulated markets.
>

I think it's just as fair to say forget about John Maynard Keynes, whose
ideas are also partially responsible for current messes through blind belief
in money supply inflation and the hyperextension of credit.

I suppose if you take Hayek's ideas and completely leave out everything in
them that has to do with externalities then you end up with a mess rather
like the one we're in. Which, as near as I can tell, is pretty much *exactly
what happened*.


> Hayek's best idea was allowing a
> multiplicity of currencies to challenge the current hegemony of government
> fiat
> currencies.
>

It's needed to happen for a long time. Recently I've heard of a few software
projects that are headed in this direction, incidentally.

Cheers,
--mlp


> Best places to start would be:
> Hazel Henderson - one of the planet's finest systems thinkers:
> http://www.hazelhenderson.com/
>
> Glad to see you list Edward Fullbrook and Toxic Textbooks. Here's his paper
> 'How
> to bring economics into the 3rd millennium by 2020':
> http://www.paecon.net/PAEReview/issue54/Fullbrook54.pdf
>
> It is on the site of the Post Autistic Economics Movement, started by
> French
> economics students in 2000: http://www.paecon.net/
>
> They publish a regular journal called Real World Economics
> Review:http://www.paecon.net/PAEReview/
>
> John Rogers
>
> ________________________________
> From: Andrius Kulikauskas <ms@... <ms%40ms.lt>>
> To: cyfranogi@yahoogroups.com <cyfranogi%40yahoogroups.com>;
> livingbytruth@yahoogroups.com <livingbytruth%40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Wed, 10 November, 2010 16:15:52
> Subject: [cyfranogi] Re: On The Money Local Currency - Chicago
>
>
> Hi John,
>
> I'm currently in Chicago, living in Grand Crossing and working as a
> tutor in South Shore.
>
> In my free time, I'm thinking about the ways I have figured things out,
> about 200 so far. I'm hoping they might be the basis for a culture of
> independent thinkers, or in other words, Jesus's vision of the kingdom
> of heaven.
>
> Related to that, I'm writing a book "Math for Thinkers" for adult
> self-learners. Here are my notes:
> http://www.helproom.org/Value/DeepIdeas
> http://www.helproom.org/Value/MathForThinkers
> I'd like to include many examples of mathematical thinking that arise in
> analyzing our economic system.
>
> Last week I met with Michael Lucci, a recent graduate who is very
> interested in rethinking economics. He is studying the Austrian
> economists Friedrich Hayek and Ludwig von Mises. So we'll be writing
> and thinking about the principles of economics. Here are some notes
> from our meeting:
> http://www.helproom.org/Value/Economics
>
> In particular, I'd like to draw a conceptual map of the macro economy,
> researching the total amounts of money and wealth in various forms
> (stocks, bonds, loans, property, wages, taxes, etc.) and how they flow
> in the economy.
>
> I note that there is a "Toxic Textbooks" movement
> http://www.toxictextbooks.com to write post-crisis economics textbooks.
>
> Here's one helpful tool, the Wolfram Alpha answer engine, and an example
> that Michael is interested in, the relationship between the prices of
> gold and oil: http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=gold+vs+oil
>
> I also alert Michael to Bernard Lietaer's book "The Future of Money"
> http://www.lietaer.com
> http://www.lietaer.com/writings/books/the-future-of-money/
>
> I want my book and related learning materials to be in the Public
> Domain, copyright-free.
> http://www.helproom.org/Value/Open
> I also want to make a living from this or related work. I think that
> should be possible, but will require great creativity and flexibility.
> I appreciate ideas. Here are some directions I'm working on:
> http://www.helproom.org/Value/BusinessIdeas
>
> John, I'm curious to learn more about your interests.
>
> Andrius
>
> Andrius Kulikauskas
> Minciu Sodas
> ms@... <ms%40ms.lt>
> (773) 306-3807
>
> On 11/02/2010 05:45 PM, jw wrote:
> > Hi. I am John Wassenaar. I did some writing on this list a while ago,
> > but have been silent for a while. I am
> > interested in the local currencies issue, wonder if anyone knows of
> > groups or individuals working in this area in
> > the midwestern US, preferably Chicago. I have done some reading, am an
> > economist by training, so also know
> > where the pot holes are. Any help appreciated.
> >
> > JW
> >
> > On 6/22/2010 4:52 PM, John Rogers wrote:
> >> Dear
> >> community currency supporter
> >>
> >> We think you may be interested in a very special event this
> >> summer.
> >> Findhorn
> >> Ecovillage in Scotland is hosting 'On The Money - a
> >> Vision Quest to the
> >> Heart of Local Money', a five day workshop
> >> for local currency designers from
> >> August 14-18, 2010.
> >>
> >> Why
> >> now?
> >> Local
> >> money will play a critical role in the transition to the resilient
> >> communities of the future.
> >> A few community
> >> currencies have succeeded and lasted decades. Many have
> >> not sustained themselves.
> >> After
> >> thousands of experiments around the world it is
> >> time to apply the lessons learned to create a new generation of
> >> sustainable systems.
> >>
> >> What does the workshop cover?
> >>
> >> * Why, What,
> >> How, Who, Where and When of community currencies.
> >> * How to get
> >> past
> >> the initial enthusiasm and idealism to create a system that lasts.
> >> * How to
> >> choose
> >> the best design features.
> >> * How to involve
> >> your community in the development process.
> >> * The
> >> workshop will be high on methodology,
> >> low in ideology, as we critically engage with existing models and
> >> systems to identify what works best for your own situation.
> >>
> >> Who
> >> is leading it?
> >> John Rogers and Jonathan Dawson, both experienced
> >> community currency acitivists and teachers.
> >> With guest contributions from Richard Douthwaite, Margrit Kennedy
> >> and Bernard Lietaer and other community currency practitioners.
> >>
> >> We
> >> will
> >> learn together how to channel the idealism and enthusiasm driving
> >> community
> >> currrencies into using the right tools to do the job of design
> >> properly and create
> >> a quantum
> >> shift in practice.
> >> Please check out the short video about the
> >> workshop here: http://www.valueforpeople.co.uk/findhornworkshop
> >>
> >> Full
> >> workshop details here:
> >> http://www.findhorncollege.com/proftraining/moneysoul.php
> >>
> >> We
> >> hope you can join us!
> >>
> >> Best
> >> wishes
> >>
> >> John
> >> Rogers, Value for People
> >> Jonathan Dawson, Findhorn Ecovillage
> >>
> >>
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > Each letter sent to cyfranogi@yahoogroups.com<cyfranogi%40yahoogroups.com>
> > enters the PUBLIC DOMAIN whenever it does not state otherwise.
> >http://www.ethicalpublicdomain.org
> > Please be kind to our authors!
> >
> > Have a look at our wiki where we are creating an online learning
> environment
> >for community currency:
> >http://www.findbetterways.info/wiki.cgi?FindBetterWays/CommunityCurrency
> >
> >
> > To Post a message, send it to:
cyfranogi@yahooGroups.com<cyfranogi%40yahooGroups.com>
> > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
>
>cyfranogi-unsubscribe@...<cyfranogi-unsubscribe%40yahooGroups.\
comYahoo>!
> Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

John Rogers, Meredith Patterson,

Thank you for your letters at John's group Cyfranogi, which I also share
at my group Living By Truth.  I encourage especially Michael Lucci to
look at your book lists and respond with thoughts.

Wednesday I visited Perry Recker downtown at Chicago Semester.  Perry
gave me a list of books that have informed his thinking.  I learned that
there is a vibrant tradition of Dutch Calvinist economic thinkers.  Here
are some of the books:
* "Idols of Our Time" by Bob Goudzwaard
* "Beyond Poverty and Affluence: Toward an Economy of Care" by Bob
Goudzwaard and Harry DeLange
* "Hope in Troubled Times: A New Vision for Confronting Global Crises"
by Bob Goudzwaard, Mark Vander Vennen, David Van Heemst
* "Globalization and the Kingdom of God" by Bob Goudzwaard in dialogue
with others.
And he had more books about Biblical faith in the modern and postmodern
age.

Perry, please, may you send us a copy of your booklist for me?  It's
great! Thank you.

I've also started a page on the size of the global economy:
http://www.helproom.org/Value/Wealth
I'm interested to comprehend the world's wealth in its various forms
such as stocks, bonds, loans, real estate, wages, taxes, futures, etc.
Here are some figures (they do change a lot, but even so):
* Total of world financial assets: 140 trillion USD
* Residential real estate in the developed world: 48 trillion USD
* Commercial real estate in the developed world: 14 trillion USD
* Value of companies listed on global stock markets: 51 trillion USD
* World bond market: 82 trillion USD
Per Year:
* Gross domestic product: 55 trillion USD per year
* Merchandise exports: 16 trillion USD per year
* US Bond market: 300 trillion USD exchanged per year
* Global stock markets: 72 trillion USD exchanged per year
* Global currency markets: 730 trillion USD exchanged per year
* World derivatives market: 510 trillion USD (per year?)

This is just a start, but I would like to map out the macroeconomic
system.  Does anybody know of any websites that do that?  Or provide
useful information?

Andrius

Andrius Kulikauskas
Minciu Sodas
http://www.helproom.org
(773) 306-3807


On 11/11/2010 05:42 PM, Meredith L. Patterson wrote:
> On Thu, Nov 11, 2010 at 11:31 PM, John Rogers<atholl2003@...>wrote:
>
>> Hi Andrius
>>
>> I think you are replying to John Wassenaar's post below but I'll just butt
>> in to
>> say that if you are 'rethinking economics' then forget about Hayek and von
>> Mises, whose ideas are partly responsible for current messes through blind
>> belief in unfettered, unregulated markets.
> I think it's just as fair to say forget about John Maynard Keynes, whose
> ideas are also partially responsible for current messes through blind belief
> in money supply inflation and the hyperextension of credit.
>
> I suppose if you take Hayek's ideas and completely leave out everything in
> them that has to do with externalities then you end up with a mess rather
> like the one we're in. Which, as near as I can tell, is pretty much *exactly
> what happened*.
>
>> Hayek's best idea was allowing a
>> multiplicity of currencies to challenge the current hegemony of government
>> fiat
>> currencies.
>>
> It's needed to happen for a long time. Recently I've heard of a few software
> projects that are headed in this direction, incidentally.
>
> Cheers,
> --mlp
>
>
>> Best places to start would be:
>> Hazel Henderson - one of the planet's finest systems thinkers:
>> http://www.hazelhenderson.com/
>>
>> Glad to see you list Edward Fullbrook and Toxic Textbooks. Here's his paper
>> 'How
>> to bring economics into the 3rd millennium by 2020':
>> http://www.paecon.net/PAEReview/issue54/Fullbrook54.pdf
>>
>> It is on the site of the Post Autistic Economics Movement, started by
>> French
>> economics students in 2000: http://www.paecon.net/
>>
>> They publish a regular journal called Real World Economics
>> Review:http://www.paecon.net/PAEReview/
>>
>> John Rogers

Andrius,

Check out http://www.gapminder.org/ and Hans Rosling's amazing TED talk
about it,
http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/hans_rosling_shows_the_best_stats_you_ve_ever\
_seen.html.
It's a tool for tracking statistical and economic data over time. Much of
the data they have (http://www.gapminder.org/data/) has to do with health
and wellness, but you'll also find things like the consumer price index,
energy usage per person, external debt per person, GDP per capita, working
hours per week and so on.

Cheers,
--mlp

On Fri, Nov 12, 2010 at 8:28 AM, Andrius Kulikauskas <ms@...> wrote:

>
>
> John Rogers, Meredith Patterson,
>
> Thank you for your letters at John's group Cyfranogi, which I also share
> at my group Living By Truth. I encourage especially Michael Lucci to
> look at your book lists and respond with thoughts.
>
> Wednesday I visited Perry Recker downtown at Chicago Semester. Perry
> gave me a list of books that have informed his thinking. I learned that
> there is a vibrant tradition of Dutch Calvinist economic thinkers. Here
> are some of the books:
> * "Idols of Our Time" by Bob Goudzwaard
> * "Beyond Poverty and Affluence: Toward an Economy of Care" by Bob
> Goudzwaard and Harry DeLange
> * "Hope in Troubled Times: A New Vision for Confronting Global Crises"
> by Bob Goudzwaard, Mark Vander Vennen, David Van Heemst
> * "Globalization and the Kingdom of God" by Bob Goudzwaard in dialogue
> with others.
> And he had more books about Biblical faith in the modern and postmodern
> age.
>
> Perry, please, may you send us a copy of your booklist for me? It's
> great! Thank you.
>
> I've also started a page on the size of the global economy:
> http://www.helproom.org/Value/Wealth
> I'm interested to comprehend the world's wealth in its various forms
> such as stocks, bonds, loans, real estate, wages, taxes, futures, etc.
> Here are some figures (they do change a lot, but even so):
> * Total of world financial assets: 140 trillion USD
> * Residential real estate in the developed world: 48 trillion USD
> * Commercial real estate in the developed world: 14 trillion USD
> * Value of companies listed on global stock markets: 51 trillion USD
> * World bond market: 82 trillion USD
> Per Year:
> * Gross domestic product: 55 trillion USD per year
> * Merchandise exports: 16 trillion USD per year
> * US Bond market: 300 trillion USD exchanged per year
> * Global stock markets: 72 trillion USD exchanged per year
> * Global currency markets: 730 trillion USD exchanged per year
> * World derivatives market: 510 trillion USD (per year?)
>
> This is just a start, but I would like to map out the macroeconomic
> system. Does anybody know of any websites that do that? Or provide
> useful information?
>
> Andrius
>
> Andrius Kulikauskas
> Minciu Sodas
> http://www.helproom.org
> (773) 306-3807
>
> On 11/11/2010 05:42 PM, Meredith L. Patterson wrote:
> > On Thu, Nov 11, 2010 at 11:31 PM, John
Rogers<atholl2003@...<atholl2003%40yahoo.co.uk>
> >wrote:
> >
> >> Hi Andrius
> >>
> >> I think you are replying to John Wassenaar's post below but I'll just
> butt
> >> in to
> >> say that if you are 'rethinking economics' then forget about Hayek and
> von
> >> Mises, whose ideas are partly responsible for current messes through
> blind
> >> belief in unfettered, unregulated markets.
> > I think it's just as fair to say forget about John Maynard Keynes, whose
> > ideas are also partially responsible for current messes through blind
> belief
> > in money supply inflation and the hyperextension of credit.
> >
> > I suppose if you take Hayek's ideas and completely leave out everything
> in
> > them that has to do with externalities then you end up with a mess rather
> > like the one we're in. Which, as near as I can tell, is pretty much
> *exactly
> > what happened*.
> >
> >> Hayek's best idea was allowing a
> >> multiplicity of currencies to challenge the current hegemony of
> government
> >> fiat
> >> currencies.
> >>
> > It's needed to happen for a long time. Recently I've heard of a few
> software
> > projects that are headed in this direction, incidentally.
> >
> > Cheers,
> > --mlp
> >
> >
> >> Best places to start would be:
> >> Hazel Henderson - one of the planet's finest systems thinkers:
> >> http://www.hazelhenderson.com/
> >>
> >> Glad to see you list Edward Fullbrook and Toxic Textbooks. Here's his
> paper
> >> 'How
> >> to bring economics into the 3rd millennium by 2020':
> >> http://www.paecon.net/PAEReview/issue54/Fullbrook54.pdf
> >>
> >> It is on the site of the Post Autistic Economics Movement, started by
> >> French
> >> economics students in 2000: http://www.paecon.net/
> >>
> >> They publish a regular journal called Real World Economics
> >> Review:http://www.paecon.net/PAEReview/
> >>
> >> John Rogers
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On Fri, Nov 12, 2010 at 12:42:49AM +0100, Meredith L. Patterson wrote:
>
> It's needed to happen for a long time. Recently I've heard of a few software
> projects that are headed in this direction, incidentally.

Do you have a list of these online somewhere or can post to the list?
I'm collecting information on these issues, we are a group here who
research the possibilities of a p2p money system -- similar to what is
established for file-sharing where initial systems where centralized
(like Napster) and later decentralised systems like Gnutella were built.

Thanks,
Ralf
--
Dr. Ralf Schlatterbeck                  Tel:   +43/2243/26465-16
Open Source Consulting                  www:   http://www.runtux.com
Reichergasse 131                        email: office@...
A-3411 Weidling
osAlliance member                       email: rsc@...

On Fri, Nov 12, 2010 at 01:28:06AM -0600, Andrius Kulikauskas wrote:
> This is just a start, but I would like to map out the macroeconomic
> system.  Does anybody know of any websites that do that?  Or provide
> useful information?
You might want to directly look at the reports from the International
Monetary Fund for things like global Gross Domestic Product (GDP) data
(also for different countries) although we all know here that GDP isn't
really a very good indicator.
http://www.imf.org/external/pubs/ft/weo/2008/02/weodata/index.aspx

Or for other economic data (like derivatives) you might want to look at
the reports from the Bank for International Settlements
http://www.bis.org, they produce quarterly reports in PDF format where
you get a lot of interesting numbers. You should get the "Statistical
annex" to the "BIS Quarterly Review"
http://www.bis.org/publ/quarterly.htm

Some time ago I used these sources to plot GDP vs money held in
derivatives (graphics attached). This clearly shows how fragile the
whole interest system has become... the text in the graphics is in
german, "Milliarden" = "Billion", "Derivate" = "Derivatives",
"Weltsozialprodukt" = "World Gross Domestic Product", and yes: the
highest point in the red curve is really almost 700000 Billion = 700
Trillion US$...

Ralf
--
Dr. Ralf Schlatterbeck                  Tel:   +43/2243/26465-16
Open Source Consulting                  www:   http://www.runtux.com
Reichergasse 131                        email: office@...
A-3411 Weidling
osAlliance member                       email: rsc@...


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Meredith, Ralf, Thank you! I share your letters and links.

Meredith, http://www.gapminder.org is truly impressive.

I saw a nice chart of life expectancy vs. wealth for all the nations
which you could then view over 200 years as a video.

Then I saw that there are 438 different statistics.  There's a few for
"Economy"=>"Economic Situation" such as Tax revenues as percentage of GDP.

What's great is that you can compare any two statistics and make a
chart.  For example, you can study alcohol consumption or murder rates etc.

It's also possible to compare US states, EU countries, China's provinces
and India's states with countries of the world:
http://www.gapminder.org/labs/

What this makes clear to me for my book is that I should really focus on
the ideas in math, for example, how to use such a resource, rather than
trying to take its place.

Still, I'm wondering if there's a resource that illustrates the global
or national macroeconomy, the forms of wealth and how they flow from one
to another.  I found this site:
http://www.fgn.unisg.ch/eurmacro/macroeconomics.html
Here's an example applet:
http://www.fgn.unisg.ch/eurmacro/tutor/circularflow_applet.html

Thank you!

Andrius Kulikauskas, Minciu Sodas, http://www.helproom.org, (773) 306-3807


On 11/12/2010 05:16 AM, Meredith L. Patterson wrote:
> Andrius,
>
> Check out http://www.gapminder.org/ and Hans Rosling's amazing TED talk
> about it,
>
http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/hans_rosling_shows_the_best_stats_you_ve_ever\
_seen.html.
> It's a tool for tracking statistical and economic data over time. Much of
> the data they have (http://www.gapminder.org/data/) has to do with health
> and wellness, but you'll also find things like the consumer price index,
> energy usage per person, external debt per person, GDP per capita, working
> hours per week and so on.
>
> Cheers,
> --mlp

On Fri, Nov 12, 2010 at 01:28:06AM -0600, Andrius Kulikauskas wrote:
  > > This is just a start, but I would like to map out the macroeconomic
  > > system.  Does anybody know of any websites that do that?  Or provide
  > > useful information?
You might want to directly look at the reports from the International
Monetary Fund for things like global Gross Domestic Product (GDP) data
(also for different countries) although we all know here that GDP isn't
really a very good indicator.
http://www.imf.org/external/pubs/ft/weo/2008/02/weodata/index.aspx

Or for other economic data (like derivatives) you might want to look at
the reports from the Bank for International Settlements
http://www.bis.org, they produce quarterly reports in PDF format where
you get a lot of interesting numbers. You should get the "Statistical
annex" to the "BIS Quarterly Review"
http://www.bis.org/publ/quarterly.htm

Some time ago I used these sources to plot GDP vs money held in
derivatives (graphics attached). This clearly shows how fragile the
whole interest system has become... the text in the graphics is in
german, "Milliarden" = "Billion", "Derivate" = "Derivatives",
"Weltsozialprodukt" = "World Gross Domestic Product", and yes: the
highest point in the red curve is really almost 700000 Billion = 700
Trillion US$...

Ralf
-- Dr. Ralf Schlatterbeck Tel: +43/2243/26465-16 Open Source Consulting
www: http://www.runtux.com Reichergasse 131 email: office@...
A-3411 Weidling osAlliance member email: rsc@...

> On Fri, Nov 12, 2010 at 8:28 AM, Andrius Kulikauskas<ms@...>  wrote:
>
>> John Rogers, Meredith Patterson,
>>
>> Thank you for your letters at John's group Cyfranogi, which I also share
>> at my group Living By Truth. I encourage especially Michael Lucci to
>> look at your book lists and respond with thoughts.
>>
>> Wednesday I visited Perry Recker downtown at Chicago Semester. Perry
>> gave me a list of books that have informed his thinking. I learned that
>> there is a vibrant tradition of Dutch Calvinist economic thinkers. Here
>> are some of the books:
>> * "Idols of Our Time" by Bob Goudzwaard
>> * "Beyond Poverty and Affluence: Toward an Economy of Care" by Bob
>> Goudzwaard and Harry DeLange
>> * "Hope in Troubled Times: A New Vision for Confronting Global Crises"
>> by Bob Goudzwaard, Mark Vander Vennen, David Van Heemst
>> * "Globalization and the Kingdom of God" by Bob Goudzwaard in dialogue
>> with others.
>> And he had more books about Biblical faith in the modern and postmodern
>> age.
>>
>> Perry, please, may you send us a copy of your booklist for me? It's
>> great! Thank you.
>>
>> I've also started a page on the size of the global economy:
>> http://www.helproom.org/Value/Wealth
>> I'm interested to comprehend the world's wealth in its various forms
>> such as stocks, bonds, loans, real estate, wages, taxes, futures, etc.
>> Here are some figures (they do change a lot, but even so):
>> * Total of world financial assets: 140 trillion USD
>> * Residential real estate in the developed world: 48 trillion USD
>> * Commercial real estate in the developed world: 14 trillion USD
>> * Value of companies listed on global stock markets: 51 trillion USD
>> * World bond market: 82 trillion USD
>> Per Year:
>> * Gross domestic product: 55 trillion USD per year
>> * Merchandise exports: 16 trillion USD per year
>> * US Bond market: 300 trillion USD exchanged per year
>> * Global stock markets: 72 trillion USD exchanged per year
>> * Global currency markets: 730 trillion USD exchanged per year
>> * World derivatives market: 510 trillion USD (per year?)
>>
>> This is just a start, but I would like to map out the macroeconomic
>> system. Does anybody know of any websites that do that? Or provide
>> useful information?
>>
>> Andrius
>>
>> Andrius Kulikauskas
>> Minciu Sodas
>> http://www.helproom.org
>> (773) 306-3807
>>

Andrius, Meredith, Ralf, John

Great to see some activity in this group again after so long silence!

If we want to rethink economics then we need to go back to basics.

The first thing that strikes me about Andrius's list of global economic figures
- the 'world's wealth' - is that the planet itself and all its 'free'
'eco-system services' is missing.


I prefer to listen to the voices of Native peoples to get some insights here:

"Only when the last  tree has died, the last river has been poisoned and the
last fish has  been caught will we realize that we cannot eat money." Cree
Indian Proverb

Or more enlightened Western thinkers such as Herman Daly, founder of ecological
economics:
"The economy is a wholly owned subsidiary of the environment, not the reverse."

The word 'economy' is ancient Greek meaning 'rules of the household' ie
balancing what comes in with what goes out. The word 'ecology' is the study of
our planetary 'house'. So both economics and ecology are about balance within
finite systems.

But what we think of as economics only emerged in the 18th century with people
like Adam Smith and 'The Wealth of Nations' and the tradition of neo-classical
and neo-liberal economics that grew out of it. This tradition has effectively
staged a coup of university economics teaching which is now dominated by fancy
mathematics masking vested interests and is really what Hazel Henderson called
'politics in disguise'.


It is why the economics students of Paris staged a mini-revolution in the world
of academic economics in the year 2000 to start the Post Autistic Economics
movement and argue for an economics in touch with the real world of planetary
limits and human communities. In other words, paying attention to the true
effects of externalities and asking what we are going to do about them to bring
about resilience, survival and sustainability. Economics Professors like Edward
Fullbrook and his Toxic Textbooks movement are playing a part in this
revolution.

The other essential point that Hazel Henderson, Marilyn Waring and Edgar Cahn
have made is the importance of what we measure. For instance, if we only measure
things as wealth, growth and progress that have dollar signs against them, then
we are doomed to damage all the things that make us truly happy such as a
healthy physical, emotional and intellectual environment. It is truly absurd
that locking people up in prisons or old peoples' homes registers as 'growth'
because it creates jobs and building contracts when what it actually reflects is
the sickness of societies that cannot create healthy environments.

Check out:
Hazel Henderson's Quality of Life indicators:
http://www.ethicalmarkets.com/about/calvert-henderson-quality-of-life-indicators\
/


Marilyn Waring's work: http://marilynwaring.com/index.html

Edgar Cahn on co-production and time banking: http://www.timebanks.org/
Watch the 15 minute video of him on the home page talking about the Core
Economy.


John Rogers



________________________________
From: Andrius Kulikauskas <ms@...>
To: cyfranogi@yahoogroups.com; livingbytruth@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Fri, 12 November, 2010 17:01:41
Subject: [cyfranogi] Re: Rethinking economics


Meredith, Ralf, Thank you! I share your letters and links.

Meredith, http://www.gapminder.org is truly impressive.

I saw a nice chart of life expectancy vs. wealth for all the nations
which you could then view over 200 years as a video.

Then I saw that there are 438 different statistics.  There's a few for
"Economy"=>"Economic Situation" such as Tax revenues as percentage of GDP.

What's great is that you can compare any two statistics and make a
chart.  For example, you can study alcohol consumption or murder rates etc.

It's also possible to compare US states, EU countries, China's provinces
and India's states with countries of the world:
http://www.gapminder.org/labs/

What this makes clear to me for my book is that I should really focus on
the ideas in math, for example, how to use such a resource, rather than
trying to take its place.

Still, I'm wondering if there's a resource that illustrates the global
or national macroeconomy, the forms of wealth and how they flow from one
to another.  I found this site:
http://www.fgn.unisg.ch/eurmacro/macroeconomics.html
Here's an example applet:
http://www.fgn.unisg.ch/eurmacro/tutor/circularflow_applet.html

Thank you!

Andrius Kulikauskas, Minciu Sodas, http://www.helproom.org, (773) 306-3807

On 11/12/2010 05:16 AM, Meredith L. Patterson wrote:
> Andrius,
>
> Check out http://www.gapminder.org/ and Hans Rosling's amazing TED talk
> about it,
>http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/hans_rosling_shows_the_best_stats_you_ve_eve\
r_seen.html.
>.
> It's a tool for tracking statistical and economic data over time. Much of
> the data they have (http://www.gapminder.org/data/) has to do with health
> and wellness, but you'll also find things like the consumer price index,
> energy usage per person, external debt per person, GDP per capita, working
> hours per week and so on.
>
> Cheers,
> --mlp

On Fri, Nov 12, 2010 at 01:28:06AM -0600, Andrius Kulikauskas wrote:
> > This is just a start, but I would like to map out the macroeconomic
> > system.  Does anybody know of any websites that do that?  Or provide
> > useful information?
You might want to directly look at the reports from the International
Monetary Fund for things like global Gross Domestic Product (GDP) data
(also for different countries) although we all know here that GDP isn't
really a very good indicator.
http://www.imf.org/external/pubs/ft/weo/2008/02/weodata/index.aspx

Or for other economic data (like derivatives) you might want to look at
the reports from the Bank for International Settlements
http://www.bis.org, they produce quarterly reports in PDF format where
you get a lot of interesting numbers. You should get the "Statistical
annex" to the "BIS Quarterly Review"
http://www.bis.org/publ/quarterly.htm

Some time ago I used these sources to plot GDP vs money held in
derivatives (graphics attached). This clearly shows how fragile the
whole interest system has become... the text in the graphics is in
german, "Milliarden" = "Billion", "Derivate" = "Derivatives",
"Weltsozialprodukt" = "World Gross Domestic Product", and yes: the
highest point in the red curve is really almost 700000 Billion = 700
Trillion US$...

Ralf
-- Dr. Ralf Schlatterbeck Tel: +43/2243/26465-16 Open Source Consulting
www: http://www.runtux.com Reichergasse 131 email: office@...
A-3411 Weidling osAlliance member email: rsc@...

> On Fri, Nov 12, 2010 at 8:28 AM, Andrius Kulikauskas<ms@...>  wrote:
>
>> John Rogers, Meredith Patterson,
>>
>> Thank you for your letters at John's group Cyfranogi, which I also share
>> at my group Living By Truth. I encourage especially Michael Lucci to
>> look at your book lists and respond with thoughts.
>>
>> Wednesday I visited Perry Recker downtown at Chicago Semester. Perry
>> gave me a list of books that have informed his thinking. I learned that
>> there is a vibrant tradition of Dutch Calvinist economic thinkers. Here
>> are some of the books:
>> * "Idols of Our Time" by Bob Goudzwaard
>> * "Beyond Poverty and Affluence: Toward an Economy of Care" by Bob
>> Goudzwaard and Harry DeLange
>> * "Hope in Troubled Times: A New Vision for Confronting Global Crises"
>> by Bob Goudzwaard, Mark Vander Vennen, David Van Heemst
>> * "Globalization and the Kingdom of God" by Bob Goudzwaard in dialogue
>> with others.
>> And he had more books about Biblical faith in the modern and postmodern
>> age.
>>
>> Perry, please, may you send us a copy of your booklist for me? It's
>> great! Thank you.
>>
>> I've also started a page on the size of the global economy:
>> http://www.helproom.org/Value/Wealth
>> I'm interested to comprehend the world's wealth in its various forms
>> such as stocks, bonds, loans, real estate, wages, taxes, futures, etc.
>> Here are some figures (they do change a lot, but even so):
>> * Total of world financial assets: 140 trillion USD
>> * Residential real estate in the developed world: 48 trillion USD
>> * Commercial real estate in the developed world: 14 trillion USD
>> * Value of companies listed on global stock markets: 51 trillion USD
>> * World bond market: 82 trillion USD
>> Per Year:
>> * Gross domestic product: 55 trillion USD per year
>> * Merchandise exports: 16 trillion USD per year
>> * US Bond market: 300 trillion USD exchanged per year
>> * Global stock markets: 72 trillion USD exchanged per year
>> * Global currency markets: 730 trillion USD exchanged per year
>> * World derivatives market: 510 trillion USD (per year?)
>>
>> This is just a start, but I would like to map out the macroeconomic
>> system. Does anybody know of any websites that do that? Or provide
>> useful information?
>>
>> Andrius
>>
>> Andrius Kulikauskas
>> Minciu Sodas
>> http://www.helproom.org
>> (773) 306-3807
>>






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Salut John and everyone,
 
As a family, our lives has been taken to the front line of "rethinking
economics" of our local context.  Here's a note I just sent along with a
petition that asks for the Canadian gov to include disabilities in all of their
foreign efforts and contributions for aid:
http://www.thepetitionsite.com/takeaction/123/047/860/?z00m=19910612
 
 
"Our daughter was born wheelchair bound for ever, from a genetic spinal
condition.
That was in 1985 in Edmonton, Alberta, Canada, one year after the provincial
government of Alberta adopted a "family first" policy, in regards to individuals
born with chronic disabilities. 
In practise, such policy means releasing people born with disability, from
enforced institutionalization by the State.
The idea was to support these people at home, in their respective families,
instead of keeping them in a building with paid staff to care for them,
throughout of their lives.
 
Apart from keeping the families of those individuals as patients while
pretending to be in partnership with them, all is well, from the political point
of view of showing improvements over the past system.
While Canada goes on exporting help and support abroad, I wonder, why don't we
first reach the completion of Alberta's social experiment, and THEN export our
expertise.

In short, what we need to see for disabled people is what we need to see for the
whole society when it comes to social policy, namely, we need to a vision and
the knowledge of becoming part of the universal social policy that genuinely
serves Health-Education-Correction in the sanctity of ongoing reconciliation of
each with all and of all with each.

After 25 years of this " growing partnership",  my prayer and hope are for the
governments and agencies who serve such worthy movement as extended health care
and education, to realize how significant is the waste of such vital essence as
the family, so that we all may get to be and to become a whole lot more invested
into one another's well being...Amen to God's Yes in us all..."
 
Benoit
 
Ps:  In order to serve such a universal social policy as a co-ordinated
Health-Education-Correction that I propose, we need to begin its implemetation
by training yhe coming together of professionals and families, from early
on at school and in community centres, in the apprenticeship of accessing
services in a gradual sequence of "patient-client-partner", so as to
progressively develop the personal and communal sense of responsibility in all
knowledge and maturity.
 

--- On Sat, 11/13/10, John Rogers <atholl2003@...> wrote:


From: John Rogers <atholl2003@...>
Subject: Re: [cyfranogi] Re: Rethinking economics
To: cyfranogi@yahoogroups.com
Received: Saturday, November 13, 2010, 4:20 AM


 



Andrius, Meredith, Ralf, John

Great to see some activity in this group again after so long silence!

If we want to rethink economics then we need to go back to basics.

The first thing that strikes me about Andrius's list of global economic figures
- the 'world's wealth' - is that the planet itself and all its 'free'
'eco-system services' is missing.

I prefer to listen to the voices of Native peoples to get some insights here:

"Only when the last tree has died, the last river has been poisoned and the
last fish has been caught will we realize that we cannot eat money." Cree
Indian Proverb

Or more enlightened Western thinkers such as Herman Daly, founder of ecological
economics:
"The economy is a wholly owned subsidiary of the environment, not the reverse."

The word 'economy' is ancient Greek meaning 'rules of the household' ie
balancing what comes in with what goes out. The word 'ecology' is the study of
our planetary 'house'. So both economics and ecology are about balance within
finite systems.

But what we think of as economics only emerged in the 18th century with people
like Adam Smith and 'The Wealth of Nations' and the tradition of neo-classical
and neo-liberal economics that grew out of it. This tradition has effectively
staged a coup of university economics teaching which is now dominated by fancy
mathematics masking vested interests and is really what Hazel Henderson called
'politics in disguise'.

It is why the economics students of Paris staged a mini-revolution in the world
of academic economics in the year 2000 to start the Post Autistic Economics
movement and argue for an economics in touch with the real world of planetary
limits and human communities. In other words, paying attention to the true
effects of externalities and asking what we are going to do about them to bring
about resilience, survival and sustainability. Economics Professors like Edward
Fullbrook and his Toxic Textbooks movement are playing a part in this
revolution.

The other essential point that Hazel Henderson, Marilyn Waring and Edgar Cahn
have made is the importance of what we measure. For instance, if we only measure
things as wealth, growth and progress that have dollar signs against them, then
we are doomed to damage all the things that make us truly happy such as a
healthy physical, emotional and intellectual environment. It is truly absurd
that locking people up in prisons or old peoples' homes registers as 'growth'
because it creates jobs and building contracts when what it actually reflects is
the sickness of societies that cannot create healthy environments.

Check out:
Hazel Henderson's Quality of Life indicators:
http://www.ethicalmarkets.com/about/calvert-henderson-quality-of-life-indicators\
/

Marilyn Waring's work: http://marilynwaring.com/index.html

Edgar Cahn on co-production and time banking: http://www.timebanks.org/
Watch the 15 minute video of him on the home page talking about the Core
Economy.

John Rogers

________________________________
From: Andrius Kulikauskas <ms@...>
To: cyfranogi@yahoogroups.com; livingbytruth@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Fri, 12 November, 2010 17:01:41
Subject: [cyfranogi] Re: Rethinking economics

Meredith, Ralf, Thank you! I share your letters and links.

Meredith, http://www.gapminder.org is truly impressive.

I saw a nice chart of life expectancy vs. wealth for all the nations
which you could then view over 200 years as a video.

Then I saw that there are 438 different statistics. There's a few for
"Economy"=>"Economic Situation" such as Tax revenues as percentage of GDP.

What's great is that you can compare any two statistics and make a
chart. For example, you can study alcohol consumption or murder rates etc.

It's also possible to compare US states, EU countries, China's provinces
and India's states with countries of the world:
http://www.gapminder.org/labs/

What this makes clear to me for my book is that I should really focus on
the ideas in math, for example, how to use such a resource, rather than
trying to take its place.

Still, I'm wondering if there's a resource that illustrates the global
or national macroeconomy, the forms of wealth and how they flow from one
to another. I found this site:
http://www.fgn.unisg.ch/eurmacro/macroeconomics.html
Here's an example applet:
http://www.fgn.unisg.ch/eurmacro/tutor/circularflow_applet.html

Thank you!

Andrius Kulikauskas, Minciu Sodas, http://www.helproom.org, (773) 306-3807

On 11/12/2010 05:16 AM, Meredith L. Patterson wrote:
> Andrius,
>
> Check out http://www.gapminder.org/ and Hans Rosling's amazing TED talk
> about it,
>http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/hans_rosling_shows_the_best_stats_you_ve_eve\
r_seen.html.
>.
> It's a tool for tracking statistical and economic data over time. Much of
> the data they have (http://www.gapminder.org/data/) has to do with health
> and wellness, but you'll also find things like the consumer price index,
> energy usage per person, external debt per person, GDP per capita, working
> hours per week and so on.
>
> Cheers,
> --mlp

On Fri, Nov 12, 2010 at 01:28:06AM -0600, Andrius Kulikauskas wrote:
> > This is just a start, but I would like to map out the macroeconomic
> > system. Does anybody know of any websites that do that? Or provide
> > useful information?
You might want to directly look at the reports from the International
Monetary Fund for things like global Gross Domestic Product (GDP) data
(also for different countries) although we all know here that GDP isn't
really a very good indicator.
http://www.imf.org/external/pubs/ft/weo/2008/02/weodata/index.aspx

Or for other economic data (like derivatives) you might want to look at
the reports from the Bank for International Settlements
http://www.bis.org, they produce quarterly reports in PDF format where
you get a lot of interesting numbers. You should get the "Statistical
annex" to the "BIS Quarterly Review"
http://www.bis.org/publ/quarterly.htm

Some time ago I used these sources to plot GDP vs money held in
derivatives (graphics attached). This clearly shows how fragile the
whole interest system has become... the text in the graphics is in
german, "Milliarden" = "Billion", "Derivate" = "Derivatives",
"Weltsozialprodukt" = "World Gross Domestic Product", and yes: the
highest point in the red curve is really almost 700000 Billion = 700
Trillion US$...

Ralf
-- Dr. Ralf Schlatterbeck Tel: +43/2243/26465-16 Open Source Consulting
www: http://www.runtux.com Reichergasse 131 email: office@...
A-3411 Weidling osAlliance member email: rsc@...

> On Fri, Nov 12, 2010 at 8:28 AM, Andrius Kulikauskas<ms@...> wrote:
>
>> John Rogers, Meredith Patterson,
>>
>> Thank you for your letters at John's group Cyfranogi, which I also share
>> at my group Living By Truth. I encourage especially Michael Lucci to
>> look at your book lists and respond with thoughts.
>>
>> Wednesday I visited Perry Recker downtown at Chicago Semester. Perry
>> gave me a list of books that have informed his thinking. I learned that
>> there is a vibrant tradition of Dutch Calvinist economic thinkers. Here
>> are some of the books:
>> * "Idols of Our Time" by Bob Goudzwaard
>> * "Beyond Poverty and Affluence: Toward an Economy of Care" by Bob
>> Goudzwaard and Harry DeLange
>> * "Hope in Troubled Times: A New Vision for Confronting Global Crises"
>> by Bob Goudzwaard, Mark Vander Vennen, David Van Heemst
>> * "Globalization and the Kingdom of God" by Bob Goudzwaard in dialogue
>> with others.
>> And he had more books about Biblical faith in the modern and postmodern
>> age.
>>
>> Perry, please, may you send us a copy of your booklist for me? It's
>> great! Thank you.
>>
>> I've also started a page on the size of the global economy:
>> http://www.helproom.org/Value/Wealth
>> I'm interested to comprehend the world's wealth in its various forms
>> such as stocks, bonds, loans, real estate, wages, taxes, futures, etc.
>> Here are some figures (they do change a lot, but even so):
>> * Total of world financial assets: 140 trillion USD
>> * Residential real estate in the developed world: 48 trillion USD
>> * Commercial real estate in the developed world: 14 trillion USD
>> * Value of companies listed on global stock markets: 51 trillion USD
>> * World bond market: 82 trillion USD
>> Per Year:
>> * Gross domestic product: 55 trillion USD per year
>> * Merchandise exports: 16 trillion USD per year
>> * US Bond market: 300 trillion USD exchanged per year
>> * Global stock markets: 72 trillion USD exchanged per year
>> * Global currency markets: 730 trillion USD exchanged per year
>> * World derivatives market: 510 trillion USD (per year?)
>>
>> This is just a start, but I would like to map out the macroeconomic
>> system. Does anybody know of any websites that do that? Or provide
>> useful information?
>>
>> Andrius
>>
>> Andrius Kulikauskas
>> Minciu Sodas
>> http://www.helproom.org
>> (773) 306-3807
>>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]










[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

To add to our discussion about rethinking economics, I just received this report
from the Steady State Economics conference at Leeds in June, 2010, which
basically proposes an economics without growth  based on the idea of 'enough'
instead of 'more':
http://steadystate.org/enough-is-enough/


John Rogers




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I'm going to register a new domain for a project that I'll share soon.
I'm wondering what Internet domain registrars we recommend?

Currently, I'm using Dotster http://www.dotster.com which is all right,
but the price has creeped up to $16.50 per year.  I want to switch to
something adequate but cheaper.  I want the company to be well enough
behaved so that it's not impractical to switch if I'm not happy.

It's very hard to find the prices that registrars charge, not for the
first year, but for subsequent years, which is important to me.

The best I've found so far is Fabulous http://www.fabulous.com where
they charge about $9 to $10 per year.  They seem well rated, too.

NetFirms http://www.netfirms.com is $12 per year.  They seem to get poor
ratings for their hosting service.  I don't need or want hosting, but I
suppose it reflects on them.

Enom and Moniker received have recieved good ratings, but their pricing
is unclear.

My hosting service uses Melbourne IT which is $12 per year.

Go Daddy is the largest registrar and costs at least 15 USD per year.

I found these reviews to be the most useful:
http://www.domainsbot.com/rate-registrar.aspx
but not that great.

Thank you for helping me!

Andrius

Andrius Kulikauskas
ms@...
+1 (773) 306-3807

A great presentation reframing economics and the concept of wealth in
the post-industrial age.

http://prezi.com/xmzld_-wayho/new-economy-new-wealth/

Pete

Andrius writes,

> I'm wondering what Internet domain registrars we recommend?

I use and recommend <http://www.dynadot.com/>.  Smaller company, good
quality, good prices.

Pete

Hi Andrius

I've used UK based http://www.123-reg.co.uk/
for the last few years but not shopped around to compare it...

John





________________________________
From: Andrius Kulikauskas <ms@...>
To: livingbytruth@yahoogroups.com; cyfranogi@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wed, 17 November, 2010 17:33:44
Subject: [cyfranogi] What domains registrars do we recommend?


I'm going to register a new domain for a project that I'll share soon.
I'm wondering what Internet domain registrars we recommend?

Currently, I'm using Dotster http://www.dotster.com which is all right,
but the price has creeped up to $16.50 per year.  I want to switch to
something adequate but cheaper.  I want the company to be well enough
behaved so that it's not impractical to switch if I'm not happy.

It's very hard to find the prices that registrars charge, not for the
first year, but for subsequent years, which is important to me.

The best I've found so far is Fabulous http://www.fabulous.com where
they charge about $9 to $10 per year.  They seem well rated, too.

NetFirms http://www.netfirms.com is $12 per year.  They seem to get poor
ratings for their hosting service.  I don't need or want hosting, but I
suppose it reflects on them.

Enom and Moniker received have recieved good ratings, but their pricing
is unclear.

My hosting service uses Melbourne IT which is $12 per year.

Go Daddy is the largest registrar and costs at least 15 USD per year.

I found these reviews to be the most useful:
http://www.domainsbot.com/rate-registrar.aspx
but not that great.

Thank you for helping me!

Andrius

Andrius Kulikauskas
ms@...
+1 (773) 306-3807






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

John,



I have just read the executive summary of the report from the conference,
which they claim is comprehensive.  Yet, it makes no mention whatever of
dematerialism or give-away economies.  Although they address inequality
obliquely, dematerialism addresses it directly and some sort of give-away
economy should result.  They refer to full employment without mentioning
unnecessary occupations that should be eliminated with much shorter work
hours for all who can be employed usefully.  This may not be everyone and
they did not address the support of furloughed workers, who, by the way,
might include many of themselves.  They claim that there is a place for
markets in the future, which is probably not the case; therefore, an economy
without markets should have been discussed.  All in all, it is a typical
weak approach to a problem that is not likely to yield to anything but a
total effort.  Quite naturally, I wonder why they would refuse input from a
person with my credentials.



Tom Wayburn, Houston, Texas





--- In cyfranogi@yahoogroups.com, John Rogers <atholl2003@...> wrote:

>

> To add to our discussion about rethinking economics, I just received this
report

> from the Steady State Economics conference at Leeds in June, 2010, which

> basically proposes an economics without growth  based on the idea of
'enough'

> instead of 'more':

> http://steadystate.org/enough-is-enough/

>

>

> John Rogers





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I use inwx.de since several years and am happy with that solution.


-----Ursprüngl. Nachr.-----
Von: John Rogers
Gesendet:  17.11.2010 21:23:01
Betreff:  Re: [cyfranogi] What domains registrars do we recommend?

Hi Andrius

I've used UK based http://www.123-reg.co.uk/
for the last few years but not shopped around to compare it...

John





________________________________
From: Andrius Kulikauskas <ms@...>
To: livingbytruth@yahoogroups.com; cyfranogi@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wed, 17 November, 2010 17:33:44
Subject: [cyfranogi] What domains registrars do we recommend?


I'm going to register a new domain for a project that I'll share soon.
I'm wondering what Internet domain registrars we recommend?

Currently, I'm using Dotster http://www.dotster.com which is all right,
but the price has creeped up to $16.50 per year.  I want to switch to
something adequate but cheaper.  I want the company to be well enough
behaved so that it's not impractical to switch if I'm not happy.

It's very hard to find the prices that registrars charge, not for the
first year, but for subsequent years, which is important to me.

The best I've found so far is Fabulous http://www.fabulous.com where
they charge about $9 to $10 per year.  They seem well rated, too.

NetFirms http://www.netfirms.com is $12 per year.  They seem to get poor
ratings for their hosting service.  I don't need or want hosting, but I
suppose it reflects on them.

Enom and Moniker received have recieved good ratings, but their pricing
is unclear.

My hosting service uses Melbourne IT which is $12 per year.

Go Daddy is the largest registrar and costs at least 15 USD per year.

I found these reviews to be the most useful:
http://www.domainsbot.com/rate-registrar.aspx
but not that great.

Thank you for helping me!

Andrius

Andrius Kulikauskas
ms@...
+1 (773) 306-3807






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Thomas Kalka, John Rogers, Peter Kaminski,

Thank you for your advice!

I signed up for http://www.dynadot.com  It costs about $9 to $10 per
year.  Their site is very clear about the pricing, which is unusual:
http://www.dynadot.com/company/prices.html
Many companies offer discounts for the first year, but don't provide any
information about subsequent years.

I purchased http://www.gospelmath.com  which will be my main site in
English for a variety of activities, starting with writing a math book
about the deep ideas in basic math.  I will write more soon!

Andrius

Andrius Kulikauskas
Gospel Math
http://www.gospelmath.com
+1 (773) 306-3807
ms@...



On 11/17/2010 10:44 AM, Peter Kaminski wrote:
> Andrius writes,
>
>> I'm wondering what Internet domain registrars we recommend?
> I use and recommend<http://www.dynadot.com/>.  Smaller company, good
> quality, good prices.
>
> Pete
>
------------------------

Hi Andrius

I've used UK basedhttp://www.123-reg.co.uk/
for the last few years but not shopped around to compare it...

John

----------------

I use inwx.de since several years and am happy with that solution.
Thomas Kalka

Thank you to everybody who participated at Minciu Sodas and Worknets
from 1998 to 2010. More than 1,000 people wrote us letters and hundreds
more participated at our wiki and our chatroom.  We also got to meet
each other every now and then.

This year, I gave up trying to make that work as a business.  In May, I
moved to Chicago to work as a tutor.  Now, I wish to share what I'd like
to do next.  I have two projects in mind (a book "Gospel Math" and a
Worknets archive) that I would like to do through the funding platform
http://www.kickstarter.com   I share my thoughts at John Rogers's
working group Cyfranogi, Pamela McLean's Learning From Each Other, and
my own Living By Truth.

I'm only working 18 hours a week right now.  I have time to look for
more income, something that would be more relevant to my life and that
ultimately I could do from Lithuania.

I would like to support self-learning.  I have a Ph.D. in Math.  I was
always taught math as a hodge podge of techniques.  Instead, I want to
think of it as a language of a few dozen deep ideas.  As a teacher at
UCSD and AUBiH, and as a tutor at Ivy League Tutoring, I have fleshed
out parts of that language.  An idea like "A right triangle is half a
rectangle" is the basis for trigonometry.  "Four times a right triangle
is the difference of two squares" leads directly to the Pythagorean
theorem.  "Addition means combine like units but list different units"
explains why you can add 3 feet + 2 feet = 5 feet, 3/7 + 2/7 = 5/7, 3x +
2x = 5x, but must simply list 3 feet + 2 inches or 3/7 + 2/9 or 3x + 2y.

I've looked around to see who is already doing what.  I was amazed to
learn about Tom Henderson's "Punk Math" book project at Kickstarter:
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1541803748/punk-mathematics
He's a math graduate student / improv comedian.  With a wonderful energy
he's co-hosting a podcast "Math for Primates"
http://www.mathforprimates.com which makes math interesting by focusing
on what humans are interested in, namely, other humans.  He's unifying
all kinds of advanced subject matter around his own interest in game
theory.  He's presenting this as "punk math" by making visceral the
sensitivity that math and punk rock share.  Punkers rage about society's
problems; math solves them.  Anybody can play punk music; anybody can do
math.  Tom went to http://www.kickstarter.com to try to raise $2,400 so
that he could write a "Punk Math" book.  He actually raised $28,701 from
1,022 backers.  That's fantastic!

I was struck by Tom's success.  I have a different set of strengths.  I
believe that his equation "math = punk" made his own strengths
visceral.  That's what people need to hear.  How can I do likewise?

Very simply, I realized that I cherish gospel music. I sing in the choir
at St. Benedict the African.  What would it mean to say that
"math=gospel"? I feel in them both:
* a joyful deliverance (self-learning, worship) from an abusive
environment (factory-like schoolwork, slavery)
* traditions rooted in the Public Domain
* encouragement of participation
* deep ideas simply expressed
* a love of principles
* purity of heart and mind
* openness to God, the absolute and infinite
* a culture of living, growing, learning forever
"Math=Gospel" lets me express such a sensitivity. It's my own outlook
and it opens up a space for my life's many threads including my
philosophy, my work with God, the kingdom of heaven, my art, my friends,
my life in Chicago's Black American community and the youth choir in my
village in Lithuania's countryside. I spoke to my housemates and they
thought that "Gospel Math" was quite intriguing.  I asked God and God
was most supportive.

I purchased http://www.gospelmath.com  Over the next month or so I want
to put together an outstanding "Gospel Math" project and then seek
funding through http://www.kickstarter.com  I want to create learning
materials in the Public Domain, which could include a short book,
videos, worksheets, art, tutoring onsite and online and much more.  I
would like to fit this within an open economy that includes people
already working on open source math books and others who'd like to
join.  I ask for our thoughts and help.

I want to try out http://www.kickstarter.com with a smaller project
first.  I imagine that Gospel Math will open up a new chapter in my
life.  I would like to make available an archive of Minciu Sodas /
Worknets which came before.  I would truly appreciate support from all
of us because the archive of our 35,000+ letters, our 4,000+ wiki pages
and our years of chat is a testimony to our many achievements.  The
archive would be thousands of read-only pages with headers that link to
our many current projects.  I would add search tools and organize
everything nicely.  It would also be a good time to do interviews and
summaries regarding our efforts in the Pyramid of Peace and other
projects.  It's a good time to reflect on our culture and share what
each of us have learned.  The archive will point to our future projects
and we can point back to the archive whenever we reflect about our work.

Would you contribute $10 or $100 or so for such a Worknets archive?  I
want to raise at least $1,000 for my work to organize the many pages and
$1,000 to assure that they stay up on the Internet at worknets.org for
at least the next 10 years.  I believe that if we think of good rewards
that people want, then we could raise more, perhaps enough for a team.

Please write!

Andrius

Andrius Kulikauskas
Gospel Math
http://www.gospelmath.com
+1 (773) 306-3807

Hi John (Cyfranogi), Pamela (at Learning From Each Other), Franz (at
Global Villages) and especially Maria Agnese Giraudo,
I share a letter which I wrote about a signature campaign for an
important step in European Democracy.  Andrius
-------------------------------------------

I learned from Avaaz.org
http://www.avaaz.org/en/eu_citizens_initiative/
about the Campaign for a citizens-friendly European Citizens' Initiative
http://www.citizens-initiative.eu/?page_id=2
My impression from COMMUNIA is that certain reforms on behalf of the
Public Domain can take place within the existing system, but other
reforms require reforming the European Union.

The European Citizens' Initiative is an innovation included in the
Treaty of Lisbon that enables 1,000,000 EU citizens to call directly on
the EU Commision to bring forward an initiative of interest to them in
an area of EU competence.

The EU is negotiating a draft of the process.  The Campaign seeks to
make the process user-friendly by:
* clarifying how the EU Commission is to follow up to successful initiatives
* simplifying the signature form and not requiring collection of ID numbers
* not requiring 100,000 signatures to collected before the EU does its
legal admissibility check
* allowing citizen initiatives to propose treaty amendments, just as the
EU Commission may
* extending the time period for collecting signatures from 12 months to
18-24 months
* reducing from 9 to 5 the number of member states from which the
signatures must come
* providing basic support to initiative organizers, such as legal
advice, translation of the text into all 21 European official languages,
travel vouchers and free meeting spaces
http://www.citizens-initiative.eu/?p=272

The EU provides itself with enormous resources to maintain its bureaucracy.

It makes sense to me that requirements on citizen initiatives be neither
too heavy nor too light. If they are too heavy, then only well funded
corporate interests will use the process.  If they are too light, then
they will attract spurious, deceptive and confusing initiatives, which
may also be driven by corporate interests, as happens at times in the
California ballot process.  But overall, I'd rather err on the
requirements being too light than too heavy, and I think that currently
they are too heavy.

I'm glad that so many people care about the citizens' initiative
process.  Avaaz.org is collecting signatures at
http://www.avaaz.org/en/eu_citizens_initiative/
To all EU Member States, Members of the European Parliament and the
President of the European Commission:
As European citizens who want to engage in European politics, we call on
you to adopt effective regulations for the European Citizens' Initiative
(ECI). Initiatives should be given enough time (18 months), and they
should not require signatures from more than one-fifth of the Member
States. Demanding ID or passport numbers from signers is an unnecessary
hurdle that should be avoided. Citizens must be able to present
initiatives in a public hearing with the Commission. The ECI must
encourage and facilitate citizen participation.

I have signed and I encourage others in Europe to sign as well.

Andrius

Andrius Kulikauskas
Minciu Sodas
http://www.ms.lt
ms@...

John, thank you for the links.

Nevertheless, it would be useful for me to understand and communicate
the current theory of macroeconomics and the existing models for the
flow of wealth.  Then I would be in a position to show with great care
where the theory breaks down.  Math, I suppose, is a care for the
absolute details, where and why they hold and where and why they break
down.  A friend asked me to watch the Zeitgeist movie and I was
disappointed to see in that movie a real lack of care for the truth,
denouncing myths with even greater myths.

My feeling is that a lot of "alternate economy" thinking is
reintroducing the current economic paradigms.  I look forward to better
appreciating the strengths and weaknesses of the current economy and
practically pursuing my own goals for a different way of making a living.

Andrius

Andrius Kulikauskas
Gospel Math
http://www.gospelmath.com
(773) 306-3807


On 11/13/2010 06:20 AM, John Rogers wrote:
> Andrius, Meredith, Ralf, John
>
> Great to see some activity in this group again after so long silence!
>
> If we want to rethink economics then we need to go back to basics.
>
> The first thing that strikes me about Andrius's list of global economic
figures
> - the 'world's wealth' - is that the planet itself and all its 'free'
> 'eco-system services' is missing.
>
>
> I prefer to listen to the voices of Native peoples to get some insights here:
>
> "Only when the last  tree has died, the last river has been poisoned and the
> last fish has  been caught will we realize that we cannot eat money." Cree
> Indian Proverb
>
> Or more enlightened Western thinkers such as Herman Daly, founder of
ecological
> economics:
> "The economy is a wholly owned subsidiary of the environment, not the
reverse."
>
> The word 'economy' is ancient Greek meaning 'rules of the household' ie
> balancing what comes in with what goes out. The word 'ecology' is the study of
> our planetary 'house'. So both economics and ecology are about balance within
> finite systems.
>
> But what we think of as economics only emerged in the 18th century with people
> like Adam Smith and 'The Wealth of Nations' and the tradition of neo-classical
> and neo-liberal economics that grew out of it. This tradition has effectively
> staged a coup of university economics teaching which is now dominated by fancy
> mathematics masking vested interests and is really what Hazel Henderson called
> 'politics in disguise'.
>
>
> It is why the economics students of Paris staged a mini-revolution in the
world
> of academic economics in the year 2000 to start the Post Autistic Economics
> movement and argue for an economics in touch with the real world of planetary
> limits and human communities. In other words, paying attention to the true
> effects of externalities and asking what we are going to do about them to
bring
> about resilience, survival and sustainability. Economics Professors like
Edward
> Fullbrook and his Toxic Textbooks movement are playing a part in this
> revolution.
>
> The other essential point that Hazel Henderson, Marilyn Waring and Edgar Cahn
> have made is the importance of what we measure. For instance, if we only
measure
> things as wealth, growth and progress that have dollar signs against them,
then
> we are doomed to damage all the things that make us truly happy such as a
> healthy physical, emotional and intellectual environment. It is truly absurd
> that locking people up in prisons or old peoples' homes registers as 'growth'
> because it creates jobs and building contracts when what it actually reflects
is
> the sickness of societies that cannot create healthy environments.
>
> Check out:
> Hazel Henderson's Quality of Life indicators:
>
http://www.ethicalmarkets.com/about/calvert-henderson-quality-of-life-indicators\
/
>
>
> Marilyn Waring's work: http://marilynwaring.com/index.html
>
> Edgar Cahn on co-production and time banking: http://www.timebanks.org/
> Watch the 15 minute video of him on the home page talking about the Core
> Economy.
>
>
> John Rogers
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Andrius Kulikauskas<ms@...>
> To: cyfranogi@yahoogroups.com; livingbytruth@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Fri, 12 November, 2010 17:01:41
> Subject: [cyfranogi] Re: Rethinking economics
>
>
> Meredith, Ralf, Thank you! I share your letters and links.
>
> Meredith, http://www.gapminder.org is truly impressive.
>
> I saw a nice chart of life expectancy vs. wealth for all the nations
> which you could then view over 200 years as a video.
>
> Then I saw that there are 438 different statistics.  There's a few for
> "Economy"=>"Economic Situation" such as Tax revenues as percentage of GDP.
>
> What's great is that you can compare any two statistics and make a
> chart.  For example, you can study alcohol consumption or murder rates etc.
>
> It's also possible to compare US states, EU countries, China's provinces
> and India's states with countries of the world:
> http://www.gapminder.org/labs/
>
> What this makes clear to me for my book is that I should really focus on
> the ideas in math, for example, how to use such a resource, rather than
> trying to take its place.
>
> Still, I'm wondering if there's a resource that illustrates the global
> or national macroeconomy, the forms of wealth and how they flow from one
> to another.  I found this site:
> http://www.fgn.unisg.ch/eurmacro/macroeconomics.html
> Here's an example applet:
> http://www.fgn.unisg.ch/eurmacro/tutor/circularflow_applet.html
>
> Thank you!
>
> Andrius Kulikauskas, Minciu Sodas, http://www.helproom.org, (773) 306-3807
>
> On 11/12/2010 05:16 AM, Meredith L. Patterson wrote:
>> Andrius,
>>
>> Check out http://www.gapminder.org/ and Hans Rosling's amazing TED talk
>> about it,
>>
http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/hans_rosling_shows_the_best_stats_you_ve_ever\
_seen.html.
>> .
>> It's a tool for tracking statistical and economic data over time. Much of
>> the data they have (http://www.gapminder.org/data/) has to do with health
>> and wellness, but you'll also find things like the consumer price index,
>> energy usage per person, external debt per person, GDP per capita, working
>> hours per week and so on.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> --mlp
> On Fri, Nov 12, 2010 at 01:28:06AM -0600, Andrius Kulikauskas wrote:
>>> This is just a start, but I would like to map out the macroeconomic
>>> system.  Does anybody know of any websites that do that?  Or provide
>>> useful information?
> You might want to directly look at the reports from the International
> Monetary Fund for things like global Gross Domestic Product (GDP) data
> (also for different countries) although we all know here that GDP isn't
> really a very good indicator.
> http://www.imf.org/external/pubs/ft/weo/2008/02/weodata/index.aspx
>
> Or for other economic data (like derivatives) you might want to look at
> the reports from the Bank for International Settlements
> http://www.bis.org, they produce quarterly reports in PDF format where
> you get a lot of interesting numbers. You should get the "Statistical
> annex" to the "BIS Quarterly Review"
> http://www.bis.org/publ/quarterly.htm
>
> Some time ago I used these sources to plot GDP vs money held in
> derivatives (graphics attached). This clearly shows how fragile the
> whole interest system has become... the text in the graphics is in
> german, "Milliarden" = "Billion", "Derivate" = "Derivatives",
> "Weltsozialprodukt" = "World Gross Domestic Product", and yes: the
> highest point in the red curve is really almost 700000 Billion = 700
> Trillion US$...
>
> Ralf
> -- Dr. Ralf Schlatterbeck Tel: +43/2243/26465-16 Open Source Consulting
> www: http://www.runtux.com Reichergasse 131 email: office@...
> A-3411 Weidling osAlliance member email: rsc@...
>
>> On Fri, Nov 12, 2010 at 8:28 AM, Andrius Kulikauskas<ms@...>   wrote:
>>
>>> John Rogers, Meredith Patterson,
>>>
>>> Thank you for your letters at John's group Cyfranogi, which I also share
>>> at my group Living By Truth. I encourage especially Michael Lucci to
>>> look at your book lists and respond with thoughts.
>>>
>>> Wednesday I visited Perry Recker downtown at Chicago Semester. Perry
>>> gave me a list of books that have informed his thinking. I learned that
>>> there is a vibrant tradition of Dutch Calvinist economic thinkers. Here
>>> are some of the books:
>>> * "Idols of Our Time" by Bob Goudzwaard
>>> * "Beyond Poverty and Affluence: Toward an Economy of Care" by Bob
>>> Goudzwaard and Harry DeLange
>>> * "Hope in Troubled Times: A New Vision for Confronting Global Crises"
>>> by Bob Goudzwaard, Mark Vander Vennen, David Van Heemst
>>> * "Globalization and the Kingdom of God" by Bob Goudzwaard in dialogue
>>> with others.
>>> And he had more books about Biblical faith in the modern and postmodern
>>> age.
>>>
>>> Perry, please, may you send us a copy of your booklist for me? It's
>>> great! Thank you.
>>>
>>> I've also started a page on the size of the global economy:
>>> http://www.helproom.org/Value/Wealth
>>> I'm interested to comprehend the world's wealth in its various forms
>>> such as stocks, bonds, loans, real estate, wages, taxes, futures, etc.
>>> Here are some figures (they do change a lot, but even so):
>>> * Total of world financial assets: 140 trillion USD
>>> * Residential real estate in the developed world: 48 trillion USD
>>> * Commercial real estate in the developed world: 14 trillion USD
>>> * Value of companies listed on global stock markets: 51 trillion USD
>>> * World bond market: 82 trillion USD
>>> Per Year:
>>> * Gross domestic product: 55 trillion USD per year
>>> * Merchandise exports: 16 trillion USD per year
>>> * US Bond market: 300 trillion USD exchanged per year
>>> * Global stock markets: 72 trillion USD exchanged per year
>>> * Global currency markets: 730 trillion USD exchanged per year
>>> * World derivatives market: 510 trillion USD (per year?)
>>>
>>> This is just a start, but I would like to map out the macroeconomic
>>> system. Does anybody know of any websites that do that? Or provide
>>> useful information?
>>>
>>> Andrius
>>>
>>> Andrius Kulikauskas
>>> Minciu Sodas
>>> http://www.helproom.org
>>> (773) 306-3807
>>>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Each letter sent to cyfranogi@yahoogroups.com
> enters the PUBLIC DOMAIN whenever it does not state otherwise. 
http://www.ethicalpublicdomain.org
> Please be kind to our authors!
>
> Have a look at our wiki where we are creating an online learning environment
for community currency:
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>
>
> To Post a message, send it to:   cyfranogi@yahooGroups.com
> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
cyfranogi-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

On 12/01/2010 05:18 PM, Perry Recker wrote:
> Andrius
> If you get a chance to pick up a copy, I think you may find the
> December, 'Annual Special Issue' of FP (Foreign Policy) particularly
> interesting.
> At least certain parts and aspects of it.
> In particular:
> p. 82-3 the profile of Ory Kolloh (person #59) and her Ushahidi
> project in Kenya
> and the ad for the 24 half hour lectures by Arthur T. Benjamin on the
> Joy of Mathematics [p.64] published by The Great Courses...Teaching
> Company.
> /*Perry Recker*
> /*cell: 773-510-2564
> h 708-597-0560
> perigraphica@...*

Perry,

Thank you for alerting me to the Foreign Policy magazine Top 100 Global
Thinkers.
http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2009/11/30/the_fp_top_100_global_thinkers
Ushahidi started at the same time as our Pyramid of Peace during the
post-election turmoil in Kenya.  I asked that they note peace efforts on
their map of Kenyan atrocities, and when they did, we provided more than
half of the entries, which came from our Kenyan participants who risked
their lives on-the-ground.  I'm not aware of anybody ever finding us
through Ushahidi.  But Ushahidi has won many, many awards.  It
frustrated me greatly to see that reality.

I found some links to Arthur T. Benjamin's videos:
http://www.ted.com/talks/arthur_benjamin_does_mathemagic.html
http://www.teach12.com/tgc/courses/Course_Detail.aspx?cid=1411
http://www.math.hmc.edu/~benjamin/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arthur_T._Benjamin
It's very helpful to see how he approaches math with enthusiasm.  He's a
good showman. For example, it's impressive when he squares two-digit
numbers instantaneously, but actually, there's only 90 such problems so
I think it's not too hard to simply memorize all the answers.  He goes
on from there, and he has a book which I should look at:
http://www.amazon.com/Secrets-Mental-Math-Mathemagicians-Calculation/dp/03073384\
01/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1197265339&sr=8-1
I think it might be great motivation for learning "math facts".  It's
also very helpful to see the 24 topics he chose for his video series.
Thank you, this helps as I work on my own math book.

Perry, thank you again for your book list on Dutch Calvinist economic
thinkers and others who have thought about Jesus's vision of the kingdom
of heaven.  I share your list again.  I looked for the books at the
Chicago Public Library, but I didn't find a single book by Bob
Goudzwaard in their catalogue, except I think for "Capitalism and
progress", and that wasn't available.

Actually, my priority now is practically, how to make a living in a way
that would be compatible with participating in an open economy
generating content in the Public Domain?  I made a Christmas card based
on portraits I drew this year in Chicago, "Do you recognize Jesus?"
http://www.gospelmath.com/upload/DoYouRecognizeJesus2.png
I'm doing it as a fundraiser for my choir at church.  It's the kind of
work I'd like to do - something that I believe is directly good -
serving God's vision - and in particular, communicating one of the ways
of "figuring things out" - in this case, paying additional attention to
what a person is saying, as if they were a stranger who God chose to
speak through.  I got a street performer's license and tomorrow I'll go
downtown and see if I'm able to engage people by singing, drawing,
teaching and if I collect any donations.

(As a side note, I'm looking for a quote in the Bible that says Jesus
"wasn't much to look at", but when he spoke, he spoke with authority.
Does anyone know of such a quote in the Gospel?  There's a passage in
Isaiah 53:2 about the Messiah, but I'm looking for something in the New
Testament.)

I got a website http://www.chatham.biz which I plan to develop to
promote the 75th street business district, a remarkable string of
businesses in Chicago's South Side, the Chatham neighborhood.  Pastor
Matthew of St.Columbanus is friendly and Stephanie Hart of Brown Sugar
Bakery is very supportive.  I'm looking for practical ways to
participate in an economic engine for the kingdom of heaven.

Andrius Kulikauskas, Gospel Math, http://www.gospelmath.com, (773) 306-3807

--------------------------------------------------

Critical Christian socio-economic  analysis and theory and worldview
–Reading List

Goudzwaard, Bob.

Dutch economist, social theorist, former MP for CDA (Christian
Democratic Appeal/Party), and retired professor of the Vrije
Universiteit, Amsterdam; wrote PhD thesis on externalites and certain
environmental ‘goods’ such as clean air and clean water as ‘priceless
scarcities.’ Many affinities in his thought with those of Herman Daly,
B.F. Schumacher, J.A. Tinbergen (sp?) Has consulted for world bank and
world council of churches.  Acquaintance of Desmond Tutu, Maurice F.
Strong, and others.

-----.     Capitalism and progress: a diagnosis of western society.
Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1980.
-----.    Idols of Our Time.  Downers Grove: Intervarsity Press, 1984.
Early example of treating global ideologies as false spirits that
operate both hegemonically and in a dialectic conflict with each other.
-----.    Beyond Poverty and Affluence: Toward and Economy of Care; with
Harry DeLange.  Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1995.
An attempt to articulate a positive economic ‘theory’ or worldview
vision from a Christian perspective – but based on a critical ‘paradox’
analysis first articulated in Capitalism and Progress, 1980.
-----.    Hope In Troubled Times: A New Vision for Confronting Global
Crises;  with  Mark Vander Vennen,; David Van Heemst;  Grand Rapids:
Baker Academic, 2007.
Updated and more nuanced analysis and presentation of
ideological-critical analysis of  ‘Idols…’(1984) and ’Beyond
poverty…’(1995)
-----.    Globalization and the Kingdom of God.    Baker Book House, 2001.
      Based on 1999 Abraham Kuyper lecture for the Center for Public
Justice, with responses from Brian Fikkert, Larry Reed, and Adolfo
Garcia de la Sienra.

Development of a critical and nuanced (not over-simplified) Christian
worldview.

Creation Regained by Al Wolters. (Eerdmans, 1985.) Benchmark/key early
text for articulation of a christian worldview rooted in respectful, but
non-traditional interpretation of Judeo-Christian scriptures.

Transforming Vision…by Brian J. Walsh and J. Richard Middleton (IVP,
1986.)  Application of ‘Creation, Fall, Redemption’ worldview in
application to modern socio-cultural realities and trends, especially in
popular culture.

Truth is stranger than it used to be: Biblical faith in a postmodern
age; by Brian J. Walsh and J. Richard Middleton (IVP, 1995.) Expanded
critical Christian analysis modernism-postmodernism dialectic –
especially as expressed in terms of popular culture.

Worldview: The History of a Concept, by David K. Naugle. (Eerdmans ,
2002.) Scholarly historical treatment of worldview as a philosophical
concept.

Naming the Elephant: Worldview as a Concept by James W. Sire,
(InterVarsity Press, 2004.) More critical reflections on personal growth
and development as a thinker and author writing about worldviews from an
evangelical  Christian perspective.

For the historical and philosophical underpinnings of most of these
works and other authors and writings in the same tradition of Christian
thought and reflection on human life in the world, see:

All of Life Redeemed  http://www.allofliferedeemed.co.uk/  is
bibliographical Website for scholarly and popular authors and titles
working in the ‘reformational’ Christian, or dutch-calvinist tradition.

For  a basic introduction to the philosophical theory of the dutch
‘reformational philosophy’ consult
Contours of a Christian Philosophy by L. Kalsbeek, translated and edited
by Bernard and Josina Zylstra. Toronto: Wedge Publishing Foundation,
1975. Original dutch title is De Wijsbegeerte der Wetsidee: Proeve van
een christelijke filosophie, Amsterdam: Buiten and Schipperheijn, 1970.

Compiled by Perry Recker
Updated November 17, 2010
perigraphica@...

Help these guys to get this movie finished and out there!

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Dear friends,

The massive campaign of intimidation against WikiLeaks is sending a chill
through free press advocates everywhere.


Legal experts say WikiLeaks has likely broken no laws. Yet top US  politicians
have called it a terrorist group and commentators have urged  assassination of
its staff. The organization has come under massive  government and corporate
attack, but WikiLeaks is only publishing  information provided by a
whistleblower. And it has partnered with the  world's leading newspapers (NYT,
Guardian, Spiegel etc) to carefully vet  the information it publishes.


The massive extra-judicial intimidation of WikiLeaks is an attack on  democracy.
We urgently need a public outcry for freedom of the press  and expression. Sign
the petition to stop the crackdown and forward this  email to everyone -- let's
get to 1 million voices and take out full  page ads in US newspapers this week!


http://www.avaaz.org/en/wikileaks_petition/97.php

WikiLeaks  isn't acting alone -- it's partnered with the top newspapers in the
world (New York Times, The Guardian, Der Spiegel, etc) to carefully  review
250,000 US diplomatic cables and remove any information that it  is
irresponsible to publish. Only 800 cables have been published so far.  Past
WikiLeaks publications have exposed government-backed torture, the  murder of
innocent civilians in Iraq and Afghanistan, and corporate  corruption.


The US government is currently pursuing all legal avenues it has to  stop
WikiLeaks from publishing more cables, but the laws of democracies  protect
freedom of the press. The US and other governments may not like  the laws that
protect our freedom of expression, but that's exactly why  it's so important
that we have them, and why only a democratic process  can change them.


Reasonable people can disagree on whether WikiLeaks and the leading  newspapers
it's partnered with are releasing more information than the  public should see.
Whether the releases undermine diplomatic  confidentiality and whether that's a
good thing. Whether WikiLeaks  founder Julian Assange has the personal character
of a hero or a  villain. But none of this justifies a vicious campaign of
intimidation  to silence a legal media outlet by governments and corporations.
Click  below to join the call to stop the crackdown:


http://www.avaaz.org/en/wikileaks_petition/97.php

Ever  wonder why the media so rarely gives the full story of what happens
behind the scenes? This is why - because when they do, governments can  be
vicious in their response. And when that happens, it's up to the  public to
stand up for our democratic rights to a free press and freedom  of expression.
Never has there been a more vital time for us to do so.


With hope,
Ricken, Emma, Alex, Alice, Maria Paz and the rest of the Avaaz team.

SOURCES:

Law experts say WikiLeaks in the clear (ABC)
http://www.abc.net.au/worldtoday/content/2010/s3086781.htm

WikiLeaks are a bunch of terrorists, says leading U.S. congressman (Mail Online)
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1333879/WikiLeaks-terrorists-says-leadin\
g-US-congressman-Peter-King.html


Cyber guerrillas can help US (Financial Times)
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/d3dd7c40-ff15-11df-956b-00144feab49a.html#axzz17QvQ4Ht\
5


Amazon drops WikiLeaks under political pressure (Yahoo)
http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20101201/tc_afp/usdiplomacyinternetwikileakscongress\
amazon


"WikiLeaks avenged by hacktivists" (PC World):
http://www.pcworld.com/businesscenter/article/212701/operation_payback_wikileaks\
_avenged_by_hacktivists.html


US Gov shows true control over Internet with WikiLeaks containment (Tippett.org)

http://www.tippett.org/2010/12/us-gov-shows-true-control-over-internet-with-wiki\
leaks-containment/


US embassy cables culprit should be executed, says Mike Huckabee (The Guardian)
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/dec/01/us-embassy-cables-executed-mike-huck\
abee


WikiLeaks ditched by MasterCard, Visa. Who's next? (The Christian Science
Monitor)
http://www.csmonitor.com/Innovation/Horizons/2010/1207/WikiLeaks-ditched-by-Mast\
erCard-Visa.-Who-s-next


Assange's Interpol Warrant Is for Having Sex Without a Condom (The Slatest)
http://slatest.slate.com/id/2276690/

________________________________



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

John, Thank you for sharing this.  I also share with my group Living By
Truth. I signed the petition (it's easy to do) because I like the work
of http://www.avaaz.org (they make it easy and constructive to speak out
on neglected global issues) and because I appreciate what Wikileaks is
doing to make governments accountable for their relations.  Here's an
interview by NPR's Fresh Air of a New York Times reporter which notes
some of the positive outcomes of the disclosures:
http://www.npr.org/2010/12/08/131884250/nyt-reporter-defends-publishing-wikileak\
s-cables

I note that the disclosures help counter "wild conspiracy theories"
because they show many examples of "real-life conspiracies" which are
much more modest and mundane.  I look forward to a more transparent world.

Andrius Kulikauskas, ms@..., (773) 306-3807, http://www.gospelmath.com


On 12/10/2010 01:32 PM, John Rogers wrote:
> Dear friends,
>
> The massive campaign of intimidation against WikiLeaks is sending a chill
> through free press advocates everywhere.
>
>
> Legal experts say WikiLeaks has likely broken no laws. Yet top US  politicians
> have called it a terrorist group and commentators have urged  assassination of
> its staff. The organization has come under massive  government and corporate
> attack, but WikiLeaks is only publishing  information provided by a
> whistleblower. And it has partnered with the  world's leading newspapers (NYT,
> Guardian, Spiegel etc) to carefully vet  the information it publishes.
>
>
> The massive extra-judicial intimidation of WikiLeaks is an attack on 
democracy.
> We urgently need a public outcry for freedom of the press  and expression.
Sign
> the petition to stop the crackdown and forward this  email to everyone --
let's
> get to 1 million voices and take out full  page ads in US newspapers this
week!
>
>
> http://www.avaaz.org/en/wikileaks_petition/97.php
>
> WikiLeaks  isn't acting alone -- it's partnered with the top newspapers in the
> world (New York Times, The Guardian, Der Spiegel, etc) to carefully  review
> 250,000 US diplomatic cables and remove any information that it  is
> irresponsible to publish. Only 800 cables have been published so far.  Past
> WikiLeaks publications have exposed government-backed torture, the  murder of
> innocent civilians in Iraq and Afghanistan, and corporate  corruption.
>
>
> The US government is currently pursuing all legal avenues it has to  stop
> WikiLeaks from publishing more cables, but the laws of democracies  protect
> freedom of the press. The US and other governments may not like  the laws that
> protect our freedom of expression, but that's exactly why  it's so important
> that we have them, and why only a democratic process  can change them.
>
>
> Reasonable people can disagree on whether WikiLeaks and the leading 
newspapers
> it's partnered with are releasing more information than the  public should
see.
> Whether the releases undermine diplomatic  confidentiality and whether that's
a
> good thing. Whether WikiLeaks  founder Julian Assange has the personal
character
> of a hero or a  villain. But none of this justifies a vicious campaign of
> intimidation  to silence a legal media outlet by governments and corporations.
> Click  below to join the call to stop the crackdown:
>
>
> http://www.avaaz.org/en/wikileaks_petition/97.php
>
> Ever  wonder why the media so rarely gives the full story of what happens
> behind the scenes? This is why - because when they do, governments can  be
> vicious in their response. And when that happens, it's up to the  public to
> stand up for our democratic rights to a free press and freedom  of expression.
> Never has there been a more vital time for us to do so.
>
>
> With hope,
> Ricken, Emma, Alex, Alice, Maria Paz and the rest of the Avaaz team.
>
> SOURCES:
>
> Law experts say WikiLeaks in the clear (ABC)
> http://www.abc.net.au/worldtoday/content/2010/s3086781.htm
>
> WikiLeaks are a bunch of terrorists, says leading U.S. congressman (Mail
Online)
>
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1333879/WikiLeaks-terrorists-says-leadin\
g-US-congressman-Peter-King.html
>
>
> Cyber guerrillas can help US (Financial Times)
>
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/d3dd7c40-ff15-11df-956b-00144feab49a.html#axzz17QvQ4Ht\
5
>
>
> Amazon drops WikiLeaks under political pressure (Yahoo)
>
http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20101201/tc_afp/usdiplomacyinternetwikileakscongress\
amazon
>
>
> "WikiLeaks avenged by hacktivists" (PC World):
>
http://www.pcworld.com/businesscenter/article/212701/operation_payback_wikileaks\
_avenged_by_hacktivists.html
>
>
> US Gov shows true control over Internet with WikiLeaks containment
(Tippett.org)
>
>
http://www.tippett.org/2010/12/us-gov-shows-true-control-over-internet-with-wiki\
leaks-containment/
>
>
> US embassy cables culprit should be executed, says Mike Huckabee (The
Guardian)
>
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/dec/01/us-embassy-cables-executed-mike-huck\
abee
>
>
> WikiLeaks ditched by MasterCard, Visa. Who's next? (The Christian Science
> Monitor)
>
http://www.csmonitor.com/Innovation/Horizons/2010/1207/WikiLeaks-ditched-by-Mast\
erCard-Visa.-Who-s-next
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> Assange's Interpol Warrant Is for Having Sex Without a Condom (The Slatest)
> http://slatest.slate.com/id/2276690/
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