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Entering sacred spaces (was Re: [decentralization] Re: Microsoft im   Topic List   < Prev Topic  |  Next Topic >
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Entering sacred spaces (was Re: [decentralization] Re: Microsoft improves SmartTag feature (let's get back to Decentralization talk)

--- In decentralization@y..., "Erik Moore" <esmoore@t...> wrote:
> The distinction between "altering what we say" and
> annotating is the ease of recognition of the source
> of any piece of information in the document. Since
> SmartTags are _easily_ discernable from original
> content, I think they safely fit under the annotation
> category.
>
> It really bothers me to see people imply that SmartTags
> somehow give the SmartTag author the power to
> _change_ content- that's simply not the case.

Eric,

You're wrong in your assertions that Smart Tags are annotations. If
they were, there would also show who wrote them. Without this
attribution they are modification. I've been watching this discussion
since Dave first brought it to my attention on scripting.com, and to
tell you the truth, this thing scares the holy bajeebers out of me on
two levels.

One, the complete wrongness of this incredibly invasive feature. And
two, that some people have their eyes so screwed shut that they can't
see just how wrong it is.

If my (or Dave's, or Roberts) arguments can't sway you, perhaps this
nugget will show you just how serious this issue is. I work for a
(unnamed) gigantic multi-national company on the scale of www.aol-
time-warner.com or www.bertlesmann.com. Yesterday I participated in a
world-wide meeting about Smart Tags at my company. I was there as in
the role of small-fry with info. When I had finished my explanation
of Smart Tags, they were horrified. Today I learned that they are
already working on potential copyright infringement suits. The
possibility that Microsoft could modify our web content is viewed as
a serious threat to our business presence on the web.

This issue is huge. I cannot possibly convey the importance of this.
It attacks the very fiber of freedom. If you steal the integrity of
Dave's web presence, you also rob him of some of his freedom. On the
most basic level, that is wrong.

Microsoft must either allow web sites to opt-in to this feature, or
not release it. those are the only two "right" options.

Chris Mahnken
chris@...




Wed Jun 20, 2001 6:45 pm

cmahnken@...
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... specify their own context server (will it?). And this will most certainly not be the case for the web of today, which has no ST-related directives at all...
Dave Winer
dave@...
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Jun 19, 2001
3:06 pm

Here is a question that hasn't been addressed, that to me, does need to be address. If a document is copyrighted, doesn't any change to it, even via Smart...
C. Wegrzyn
wegrzyn@...
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Jun 19, 2001
3:18 pm

... The user is changing the presentation of the data, not the content. Try re-phrasing your case with the <BLINK> tag and see how far you get (e.g. I put...
Jim McCoy
mccoy@...
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Jun 19, 2001
6:05 pm

Interesting...the book analysis is one I didn't consider. Have the courts ruled that presentation is separate from content as far as copyright is concerned?...
C. Wegrzyn
wegrzyn@...
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Jun 19, 2001
6:14 pm

... I don't think it matters, because copyright only restricts distribution. If you make a derived work that doesn't leave your computer, I don't think that's...
Wesley Felter
wesley@...
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Jun 19, 2001
7:08 pm

I believe the issue resolves around creating a derived work. As I read the statute the act doesn't mention distribution merely the creation of it. And that is...
C Wegrzyn
wegrzyn@...
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Jun 19, 2001
9:11 pm

One wonders what to think about the Talmud and the iterative annotative process that gave birth to and developed it, in light of the objections raised. Or,...
kiyoumars@...
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Jun 19, 2001
8:42 pm

joubin@... said, "One wonders what to think about the Talmud and the iterative annotative process that gave birth to and developed it, in light of the...
Tom Caudron
tom_caudron@...
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Jun 19, 2001
9:11 pm

... The question is who is making the derived work - the person using the smart tags or the distributor of the smart tags ? Certainly the developer of ...
jacobsen
jacobsen@...
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Jun 20, 2001
6:35 am

Microsoft doesn't let their OEMs add to or modify their distribution of Windows. I've heard them argue for this, and it sounds a lot like the integrity thing ...
Dave Winer
dave@...
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Jun 20, 2001
1:21 pm

Really? So all the HP stuff that came on the HP Pavillion that I recently bought was put there by MS? And all the Toshiba stuff that was on the that Toshiba ...
Mike Faunce
mike@...
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Jun 20, 2001
3:10 pm

Can you imagine a telephone company that inserted helpful tips into the middle of a phone conversation? Oh I hear you're talking about sharks! Did you know...
Dave Winer
dave@...
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Jun 20, 2001
1:42 pm

... Enough, surely. Get over it. The website isn't a telephone. We are the middlemen. Embrace and extend. Next step: use Radio Userland to syndicate RSS...
Hugh Pyle
hpyle@...
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Jun 20, 2001
2:32 pm

... enclosures which ... place on the ... subscribe to can add ... intervention, and you ... one-pager UI to ... taglists. You are now talking about authors...
beno@...
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Jun 20, 2001
4:48 pm

... thing ... sees ... The distinction between "altering what we say" and annotating is the ease of recognition of the source of any piece of information in...
Erik Moore
esmoore@...
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Jun 20, 2001
2:07 pm

... Eric, You're wrong in your assertions that Smart Tags are annotations. If they were, there would also show who wrote them. Without this attribution they...
Chris Mahnken
cmahnken@...
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Jun 20, 2001
6:45 pm

Dave, I love the idea...I'll even bet we could get a VC to fund it! Peace, Chuck Wegrzyn ... From: "Dave Winer" <dave@...> To:...
C. Wegrzyn
wegrzyn@...
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Jun 20, 2001
2:20 pm

... <snip> You just told me that you were able to convince a group of people that SmartTags are bad. That doesn't in the least contribute to the argument. ... ...
Erik Moore
esmoore@...
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Jun 20, 2001
6:54 pm

... Right. How about this very specific example/arguement: My wife owns a travel web site. Microsoft owns Expedia. Let's say Microsoft creates a tag for the...
Chris Mahnken
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Jun 20, 2001
7:20 pm

Chris Kaminski just posted this to the Web Design mailing list and I thought it was so good that I have brought it to you in its entirety without any added...
Robert Scoble
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Jun 20, 2001
7:27 pm

... I thought ... without any ... [big snip] Interesting. Good points, but flawed by just a little thing. He hasn't used them, he hasn't even seen them in...
paolo@...
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Jun 20, 2001
7:33 pm

At the risk of rehashing a few points that have already been made- ... No, the only see that link if they explicitly downloaded and turned on the Microsoft...
Erik Moore
esmoore@...
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Jun 20, 2001
7:30 pm

... No, the user didn't. The user unwittingly downloades a batch of smart tags during a windows update. And if Microsoft can do that, what stops them from...
Chris Mahnken
cmahnken@...
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Jun 20, 2001
8:12 pm

... Ahh, so you admit you are a member of the Internet Explorer team at Microsoft? Interesting to know that. Thanks! Robert Scoble ...
Robert Scoble
rscoble@...
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Jun 20, 2001
7:41 pm

... Microsoft SmartTag handler. Erik: are you a Microsoft employee? It sure sounds like you have a lot of inside information. Can you please post some screen...
Robert Scoble
rscoble@...
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Jun 20, 2001
7:46 pm

... No. ... I haven't revealed anything that MS hasn't made public. ... I agree, that would be bad- but don't you think that battle should be fought when that...
Erik Moore
esmoore@...
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Jun 20, 2001
7:58 pm

If, in fact, there's going to be an open way to create a recognizer, and if in fact the user has to choose to use any recognizer, then no, I don't see how...
Sean Gallagher
sean@...
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Jun 20, 2001
8:10 pm

... fought when that happens? If someone comes toward you with a gun, do you wait until he starts shooting before taking cover or pulling your own out? I...
Robert Scoble
rscoble@...
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Jun 20, 2001
8:05 pm

... There are two ways to implement a recognizer, with a static XML file where the phrases and actions are hoardcoded, and with a dll. The XML file is ...
Erik Moore
esmoore@...
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Jun 20, 2001
8:48 pm

... I looked the docs over; the only gotcha I can see for the truly MS averse here is that in order to make it easy for users to download one of these, you...
Sean Gallagher
sean@...
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Jun 21, 2001
3:53 pm
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