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decentralization · Implications of the end-to-end principle

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VoIP/P2P/Zennstrom   Message List  
Reply Message #6545 of 7086 |
Re: [decentralization] Skype (was VoIP/P2P/Zennstrom)

Ah, yes, brokered UDP traversal of a NAT. Bryan Ford of MIT describes this
here: http://www.pdos.lcs.mit.edu/~baford/nat/draft-ford-natp2p-00.txt and
here: http://www.pdos.lcs.mit.edu/~baford/nat/. The technique requires the
NAT devices keep a constant mapping between public and private address/port
pairs, and do *not* allocate new port mappings for different
destination/port pairs. (This is sometimes known as "full cone NAT".)

SIP has various modifications to allow a session description to distinguish
between public and private addresses, so that it will effectively broker
the direct connection between the two endpoints. Presumably Packet8's
service does this. As for Skype, presumably their proprietary call
signaling protocol does something equivalent.

The alternative is to use something called a Session Border Controller,
which sits in the public address space, does address mapping and acts a
relay for the media stream. However, these devices are not cheap
(requiring as they do a great deal of packet forwarding capacity for VoIP),
and the media streams have to go via the VoIP service provider's bandwidth,
which adds to the cost.

On the other hand, if the FBI get their way under the CALEA regulations, a
VoIP service provider will have to be able to tap the voice stream, and in
a manner undetectable to the wiretap subjects. That might mandate using
SBCs, as I believe Vonage (for example) does.

The fact that Skype is P2P and encrypted is probably giving the Feds heartburn.

Rob

(robert at welbourn dot com)

At 10:07 AM 9/3/2003 -0500, brandon@... wrote:
> > Regarding Packet8's 'magic'... could it be something like the next-port
> > tricks that are possible with some NATs, i.e. A and B use a relay to
> > co-ordinate their timing and port numbers so they each initiate
> > connections to the other's NAT at the same time on port+1 and rely on
> > the fact that the other's NAT will (probably) assign the next sequential
> > port to the outgoing connection. If it works, A and B can then talk
> > directly even though they're mutually NAT'd. What else could it be?
>
>Well my box arrives on Friday, so I'll let you know.
>
>
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Wed Sep 3, 2003 9:08 pm

rwelbourn
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Message #6545 of 7086 |
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http://www.lightreading.com/document.asp?site=lightreading&doc_id=37846 Not sure if there's anything interesting or promising there. It would make no sense at...
Lucas Gonze
lgonze@... Send Email
Jul 30, 2003
10:31 pm

... Yay, it's not based on SIP so there will be no interop. :-( Quick, someone hack together some open source DHT, pet names, and SIP components. Wes Felter -...
Wes Felter
wesfelter Offline Send Email
Jul 31, 2003
12:37 am

... Okay Wes, I'll do this if you will make it interop with the iChat voice chat thing. I already have a DHT and pet names, so SIP was the next logical step....
brandon@...
blanublanu Offline Send Email
Jul 31, 2003
10:46 pm

... The problem with iChat is that it's using AIM for identity/lookups; apparently it won't connect to anything if you don't have an AIM account. (I think I am...
Wes Felter
wesfelter Offline Send Email
Aug 1, 2003
4:06 am

... Funnily enough, for me Zennstrom's words came across in a totally different way when I was reading his interview: ...
Serguei Osokine
osokin_parag... Offline Send Email
Jul 31, 2003
6:01 am

... But don't forget the amount of dark fiber. There's huge capacity available without having to use P2P black air. - Lucas...
Lucas Gonze
lgonze@... Send Email
Jul 31, 2003
2:03 pm

... True. This, however, will cost me money to use and will be subject to all sort of weirdest limitations from my ISP, RIAA, MPAA, and their respective...
Serguei Osokine
osokin_parag... Offline Send Email
Jul 31, 2003
4:53 pm

http://www.skype.com/ The claimed advantages over stuff like FWD are better-than-phone quality (see http://wmf.editthispage.com/2003/08/07 ) and end-to-end...
Wes Felter
wesfelter Offline Send Email
Sep 2, 2003
4:21 pm

Well, the FWD service as such is really just a SIP signaling relay. The quality of the call is down to the endpoints and the intervening network ...
Robert Welbourn
rwelbourn Offline Send Email
Sep 2, 2003
8:01 pm

... I don't know about Skype, but I know that Packet8 uses some mysterious technology to allow NAT-to-NAT calls without a relay. The details of how this works...
brandon@...
blanublanu Offline Send Email
Sep 3, 2003
1:12 am

David Beckemeyer of Earthlink says of skype, from another list: Interesting. But since they apparently went with proprietary protocols it looks like they will...
Clay Shirky
cshirky Offline Send Email
Sep 3, 2003
2:26 pm

... This is something that bothers me about Skype and actually bothers me about Kazaa as well. Something like a VoIP client really needs to use public...
Julian Bond
jbond23uk Offline Send Email
Sep 3, 2003
7:13 am

There's GiFT (Gnu Isn't Fast Track), who reverse-engineered the protocol fairly quickly but have since been locked out. (The FastTrack network started...
Michael Iles
toastyfingers Offline Send Email
Sep 3, 2003
1:01 pm

... Well my box arrives on Friday, so I'll let you know....
brandon@...
blanublanu Offline Send Email
Sep 3, 2003
5:28 pm

Ah, yes, brokered UDP traversal of a NAT. Bryan Ford of MIT describes this here: http://www.pdos.lcs.mit.edu/~baford/nat/draft-ford-natp2p-00.txt and here:...
Robert Welbourn
rwelbourn Offline Send Email
Sep 3, 2003
9:12 pm

Well, the Skype site now has posted some limited technical info. It looks like they are doing application level routing using relay peers which have public IP...
Robert Welbourn
rwelbourn Offline Send Email
Sep 3, 2003
10:11 pm
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