If you're using the apache or NCSA httpds, you can set the
"referer_log" which should track incoming and outgoing URLS
(depending on how your server is configured). A CGI or system script
can then scan the log and generate stats.

-L. Bry, MadSci Admin
http://www.madsci.org/

> At 03:26 PM 1/12/98 +0000, you wrote:
> >>In other words, which of the resources we link to are they
> >>going to? I'd love to hear from people who have ideas about how best to
> >do
> >>that tracking.
> >
> >You could use a cgi script to do the tracking.
>
> We use a redirect CGI script to do tracking and get statistics for use of
> outside resources.  However, it does not account for the usesage which
> results from people bookmarking useful resources--and we have to assume that
> faculty and staff do this often.  We keep these statistics as a way of
> seeing shifts is use and such, but we debate as to how useful it really is.
>
> Thoughts?
>
> Laura Hudson
> Alden Library Reference Department
> Ohio University Libraries
>
> At 03:26 PM 1/12/98 +0000, you wrote:
> >>In other words, which of the resources we link to are they
> >>going to? I'd love to hear from people who have ideas about how best to
> >do
> >>that tracking.
> >
> >You could use a cgi script to do the tracking.  Then instead of you
> >site's links being:
> >
> ><a href=http://some.other.orgs/dir/page.htm>Link to an outside site.</a>
> >
> >The link would be:
> >
> ><a
> >href=http://your.orgs/cgibin/redirect.cgi?destination=http://some.other.
> >orgs/dir/page.htm>Link to an outside site.</a>
> >
> >Your redirect.cgi script could then log the information you need and
> >send a redirect command to the browser to send it to the external site.
> >I use this technique in some of my menu systems.  It works pretty well.
> >
> >There are many example redirect script at
> >
> >http://www.cgi-resources.com
> >
>

Terry,

I acquired a small CGI script that redirects the user through a 'tally'
page and then moves onto the link that was selected.

You can then take this 'tally' page and drop it into a spreadsheet to
organize and count the sites that were selected.
Information shown includes the URL, time, and domain of the user (so you
can actually track how much use your listing pages are getting from
off-campus users)

Take a look at
http://www.geneseo.edu/~library/subject2/gr.htm#specres

And then look closely at the URLs.  You'll notice that it is actually 2
urls...one that is local followed by the distant site.  This is how the log
file is accessed; the site is counted and then the site is brought to the
user.  This all happens very quickly.  There is almost no noticable time
lag when user this libredirect script.

If you are interested I can send you a copy.

Hope this helps.

-hal

Hal P. Kirkwood Jr.                                     Purdue University
Asst Mgmt & Econ Librarian                              1340 Krannert
kirkwood@...                             West Lafayette, IN 47906
http://bounce.to/hal/                           765/494-2921
                                                 FX: 765/494-9058

...a voice was in my head....it said seize the day....
...pull the trigger...drop the blade...and watch the rolling heads.....
"The Day I Tried to Live"       -Soundgarden

-----Original Message-----
From:   Terry Calhoun [SMTP:splendid@...]
Sent:   Monday, January 12, 1998 8:17 AM
To:     DIG_REF@...
Subject:        Where Are People Going?

David's point about identifying user needs relates to a question that arose
when I met with my development team Sunday morning: "Where are people going
from our site?" In other words, which of the resources we link to are they
going to? I'd love to hear from people who have ideas about how best to do
that tracking.

The best idea we came up with Sunday was putting an "invisible" page
between each of our links and the page the user is going to. Then we can
count the times the invisible pages are hit.

Terry Calhoun, AOL-IM & ICQ is "Splendid1"
Society for College and University Planning (SCUP)
(734) 998-7027 f(734) 998-6532
splendid@... http://www.scup.org

Association of Internet Professionals (AIP)
tcalhoun@... http://www.association.org

At 03:26 PM 1/12/98 +0000, you wrote:
>>In other words, which of the resources we link to are they
>>going to? I'd love to hear from people who have ideas about how best to
>do
>>that tracking.
>
>You could use a cgi script to do the tracking.

We use a redirect CGI script to do tracking and get statistics for use of
outside resources.  However, it does not account for the usesage which
results from people bookmarking useful resources--and we have to assume that
faculty and staff do this often.  We keep these statistics as a way of
seeing shifts is use and such, but we debate as to how useful it really is.

Thoughts?

Laura Hudson
Alden Library Reference Department
Ohio University Libraries

At 03:26 PM 1/12/98 +0000, you wrote:
>>In other words, which of the resources we link to are they
>>going to? I'd love to hear from people who have ideas about how best to
>do
>>that tracking.
>
>You could use a cgi script to do the tracking.  Then instead of you
>site's links being:
>
><a href=http://some.other.orgs/dir/page.htm>Link to an outside site.</a>
>
>The link would be:
>
><a
>href=http://your.orgs/cgibin/redirect.cgi?destination=http://some.other.
>orgs/dir/page.htm>Link to an outside site.</a>
>
>Your redirect.cgi script could then log the information you need and
>send a redirect command to the browser to send it to the external site.
>I use this technique in some of my menu systems.  It works pretty well.
>
>There are many example redirect script at
>
>http://www.cgi-resources.com
>

Cousineau, Laura wrote:
<snip>

> I hear a lot of people talk about wanting selected, organized lists.  At my
> library, there is even a committee that wants to catalog web sites and add
them
> to the onine catalog.  But are patrons actually using these lists?  I am
> particularly opposed to cataloging web sites (that is another discusion
> entirely), but it does seem reasonable for resource specialists
(bibliographers)
> to collect and monitor information sources on the Web, as long as patrons
> actually use these lists.
>
> In my own reference work, I rely on search engines for fast, efficient
> retrieval.  I have found answers to questions like "when was the first time
> balsamic vinegar was used", "how many cords of wood per acre of lob lolly
pines
> aged 12 years", "what is the curent population of Durham" and many more.  I
> think the full text searching makes the difference, which is why I depend on
> HotBot and AltaVista, where I can do complex searches to retrieve precise
> answers.  Lists based on broad subject headings just can't be used as
> efficiently.  And compilations like OCLC's NetFirst are a complete disaster
for
> answering reference questions.  Try it sometime.
>
> But what about our faculty, our students, and other library patrons?  Do they
> find lists such as yours helpful?  Or do they do the same thing - use a search
> engine to find it?  What do your stats say?  What are the experience of other
> "diggers" out there?

As a "digger,"  I find many different approaches useful, and do not see a cookie
cutter. There is one additional approach to add to the mix.  I have always
wondered
if there was value in providing category oriented bookmarks to speed at least
the
initial search process. In my view, there are some searches where it is easier
to
focus on the specific kind of information rather than the subject. For example,
if I
wanted to get financial information about a publicly traded company, I might go
to
EDGAR rather than search the company. Clearly two different approaches.

One of the first illustrations of a series of bookmarks that focused on a
category
of information (or an area of inquiry) is http://fsc.fsonline.com/netdir.html
for
financial information.

Imagine a collection of bookmarks across a spectrum of subject areas. That would
be
powerful.

Alan

It seems to me that search engines are the way to go when one needs specific
information, but categorized lists of sites (online or in books like "The
Internet Yellow Pages") are the choice when one simply wants to explore a
topic more generally.  The two approaches are complementary, but one is not
a substitute for the other.  (The search engine might be likened to the
index to a book, while the categorized list is rather like the table of
contents.)

Ken

At 09:39 AM 1/12/98 EST, you wrote:
...
>In my own reference work, I rely on search engines for fast, efficient
>retrieval.  I have found answers to questions like "when was the first time
>...
>Lists based on broad subject headings just can't be used as
>efficiently.
--
Kenneth W. Umbach, Ph.D., Policy Analyst
California Research Bureau, California State Library
Sacramento, California
E-mail: kumbach@... (or kumbach@...)
Phone (voice) 916-653-6002 (fax) 916-654-5829
Personal Web page and selected papers: http://members.unlimited.net/~kumbach

Sara,

The kinds of questions from students that you mention are identical to
some of the questions received by some "AskA" (Ask An Expert) services.
It's interesting to see similarities in user behavior between these
special services and a library's electronic service.

I agree with you that an important aspect of digital reference is in
referring users to appropriate resources--not just answering questions.
One service, KidsConnect (a project of the American Association of School
Librarians), connects K-12 students with library media specialists in
schools all over the US (and abroad). These "virtual librarians" provide
pointers to Web sites and other resources (books, encyclopedias,
periodicals, etc.) and *always* refer the student back to his or her own
school library media specialist <http://www.ala.org/ICONN/AskKC.html>.
Part of the job is to educate students as to when it is appropriate to use
the Internet and when it is better to start somewhere else.

There are many other AskA services that answer similar questions.  Others
specialize in subject areas like math or science. They focus more on
providing an expert answer, so they are less likely to provide references.
However people would still consider this digital reference because it
connects users with information that happens to be in the form of expert
knowledge. Another way to think about it is that AskA services allow
users to consult primary sources--people.

Have others had experience with this type of digital reference?

Abby


                    ----------------------------------
                    Abby Kasowitz, Project Specialist
                    Information Institute of Syracuse
                            abby@...
                    -----------------------------------



> Child sent a note around 8PM a few weeks ago. "I need information on
> New Jersey colonial clothes, implements and food." Aha! this is re-
> quired in 4th grade curriculum here. Replied that best, quickest
> answer would come from books, but as it was sleeting/snowing out
> I also assumed Mom and Dad were NOT driving her to the library, so
> gave her some URLs. Another child on a Saturday afternoon e-asked
> "what is the largest freshwater lake in the world?" I grieve...a home
> with no almanac or encyclopedia? Just a computer?
> We have to be careful not to over-estimate the use of the Internet, its
> information value to the average citizen. Our own (relative) facility
> could make us a bit myopic.I find a part of the digital reference
> exchange has to be great specificity about use of sources and often a
> referral back to the real, not the virtual, library. </soapbox>
>

Ken Umbach wrote:
<snip>

> the amount, quality, and (for those who know what they are doing) ease of
access
> to information
> online continues to astound me ... and I make a living at this!!
>
> In this case (and many others I deal with), the virtual library is a far
> better resource now than the physical one ... which is almost scary, as I
> WORK for a library.  As addicted as I am to books (and constantly
> surrounded by them), the future is digital.

  Ken Umbach's point is well taken. There has always been a lot of information.
The
problem has been ease of access and then turning that information into a
meaningful and valuable product. The Internet is making it a lot easier to get
at
information and move it around -- particularly government information. That is
the
great boon. Our challenge is to make that information useful -- one has to sift,
sort and make sense of it. What does it mean? Why is it important?

This is my first posting on this listserv, and I should, therefore, introduce
myself. After a laundry list of positions, in and out of government, I recently
set-up an Internet based business (CapitalValue.com) designed to provide
analysis
and information about the Federal Government (not lobbying). There is a public
portion (including lots of links to information resources) and a section
reserved
for clients. See http://www.CapitalValue.com   The Internet makes it possible
for
me to compete with much larger organizations, and, I hope, to make Washington a
little less of an insiders game.

I also am a volunteer searcher for HumanSearch.com, answering all sorts of
questions for people who have trouble (for one reason or another) finding what
they need on the Internet. Think of the value of such organizations, and the
search engines -- they can tell you what people want to know.

Alan

Following on from Laura Cosineau's comments:

Shouldn't we be looking at changing the structure of the cataloguing
process, so that the categorical information is stored as Meta Data in
the electronic document by the author.

There are some interesting materials about this at:

         http://www.w3.org

Some advantages of this approach are:

         - the classifications and keywords are those intended by the
authors
         - cataloging is done once
         - keyword searches and full text searches are still possible
         - human effort is reduced leaving more time for information
professionals to deliver personalised advice and guidance

Terry,

David Carter at the Internet Public Library, a former colleague of mine, wrote a
Perl script that does in spirit what you describe (not the "invisible page" way,
though).  See his Clark page at http://www.si.umich.edu/~superman/AP/

The Internet Public Library has a page of most-accessed resources -- culled from
the transaction logs -- at http://www.ipl.org/col/top.html

Nettie

Nettie Lagace
Business Information Librarian
Baker Library, Harvard Business School
http://library.hbs.edu/
--------------------------------------
alagace@... * 617-495-5917


At 08:16 AM 1/12/98 -0500, you wrote:
>David's point about identifying user needs relates to a question that arose
>when I met with my development team Sunday morning: "Where are people going
>from our site?" In other words, which of the resources we link to are they
>going to? I'd love to hear from people who have ideas about how best to do
>that tracking.
>
>The best idea we came up with Sunday was putting an "invisible" page
>between each of our links and the page the user is going to. Then we can
>count the times the invisible pages are hit.
>
>Terry Calhoun, AOL-IM & ICQ is "Splendid1"
>Society for College and University Planning (SCUP)
>(734) 998-7027 f(734) 998-6532
>splendid@... http://www.scup.org
>
>Association of Internet Professionals (AIP)
>tcalhoun@... http://www.association.org
>
>

>In other words, which of the resources we link to are they
>going to? I'd love to hear from people who have ideas about how best to
do
>that tracking.

You could use a cgi script to do the tracking.  Then instead of you
site's links being:

<a href=http://some.other.orgs/dir/page.htm>Link to an outside site.</a>

The link would be:

<a
href=http://your.orgs/cgibin/redirect.cgi?destination=http://some.other.
orgs/dir/page.htm>Link to an outside site.</a>

Your redirect.cgi script could then log the information you need and
send a redirect command to the browser to send it to the external site.
I use this technique in some of my menu systems.  It works pretty well.

There are many example redirect script at

http://www.cgi-resources.com

Apologies in advance for all of my spelling mistakes.

Richard J Hathaway (Dick), MLink Director, University of Michigan writes
(editted):

> I am asking for some thoughts on selecting and organizing Internet web sites
>for access/reference by we librarians and our clients. In general the
>question is- selected and organized lists vs. using general (perhaps at
>times focused) web search engines such as Alta-Vista, Lycos, HotBot,
>Northern Lights, Excite, etc.
>
>  As a example of the classified virtual library approach please take a
>look at our electronic library--the "Michigan Electronic Library (MEL)"
>  http://mel.lib.mi.us/main-index.html  is the main menu--you can go back
>to the home page    http://mel.lib.mi.us   for some background.

Your pages look very well done.  My question for you is, are they used, and by
whom?  Does your reference staff use them when answering reference questions?
Are they accessed by the public?  Are you keeping stats on the hits you get?
Are some disciplines more accessed than others?

I hear a lot of people talk about wanting selected, organized lists.  At my
library, there is even a committee that wants to catalog web sites and add them
to the onine catalog.  But are patrons actually using these lists?  I am
particularly opposed to cataloging web sites (that is another discusion
entirely), but it does seem reasonable for resource specialists (bibliographers)
to collect and monitor information sources on the Web, as long as patrons
actually use these lists.

In my own reference work, I rely on search engines for fast, efficient
retrieval.  I have found answers to questions like "when was the first time
balsamic vinegar was used", "how many cords of wood per acre of lob lolly pines
aged 12 years", "what is the curent population of Durham" and many more.  I
think the full text searching makes the difference, which is why I depend on
HotBot and AltaVista, where I can do complex searches to retrieve precise
answers.  Lists based on broad subject headings just can't be used as
efficiently.  And compilations like OCLC's NetFirst are a complete disaster for
answering reference questions.  Try it sometime.

But what about our faculty, our students, and other library patrons?  Do they
find lists such as yours helpful?  Or do they do the same thing - use a search
engine to find it?  What do your stats say?  What are the experience of other
"diggers" out there?

Laura

Laura Cousineau
Information Access Librarian, Philosophy Resource Specialist, and
AT&T Information Literacy Program Director (whew!)
Perkins Library, Reference
Duke University
lkc@...

Sara,

I am interested in the distributed, collaborative approach that NJ is taking
for a state digital library.  At the federal level, I am working with several
agencies who are interested in similar concepts.  Is the workshop that will be
held in South Jersey open to observers?  I live in Philadelphia and it would
not be a problem for me to get there.  If it is open, what are the date(s).

Thank you,

Gail Hodge
US Geological Survey/Biological Resources Division Library Coordinator

---------------------------
Information International Associates, Inc.
312 Walnut Pl.
Havertown, PA  19083
610/789-6769 or 610/668-5176
Gailhodge@...

David's point about identifying user needs relates to a question that arose
when I met with my development team Sunday morning: "Where are people going
from our site?" In other words, which of the resources we link to are they
going to? I'd love to hear from people who have ideas about how best to do
that tracking.

The best idea we came up with Sunday was putting an "invisible" page
between each of our links and the page the user is going to. Then we can
count the times the invisible pages are hit.

Terry Calhoun, AOL-IM & ICQ is "Splendid1"
Society for College and University Planning (SCUP)
(734) 998-7027 f(734) 998-6532
splendid@... http://www.scup.org

Association of Internet Professionals (AIP)
tcalhoun@... http://www.association.org

I want to be careful that we don't start defining digital reference too
narrowly. I think it is more than simply "better web surfing" and creating
yet another "list of lists." If we start treating the Internet as just a
bigger set of bookcases (this time with web pages instead of books) we miss
the true power of it...to connect people and provide service.

Translating the reference process...that is identifying user needs,
identifying resources to match those needs, and then brokering the
process...into the Internet world is the essential question. Does that
include identifying static web resources? Absolutely, but only as part of a
larger process. How do you find out what users want? How can you make sure
your selection policy is in-line with your users' needs?

To me by taking user reference questions via the Internet (e-mail or the
web) you have ample raw data to start making powerful linkages to the user
community. Imagine next time you have to make resource allocation decisions
(buying books, creating web pages, programming an interface) you can draw on
a knowledge base of thousands of questions. Not vague recollections, but the
actual full-text of the questions.

Further, an essential value-added by digital reference is not making static
web pages available, but providing a human voice in the technological maze.
That's why we have help desks from software companies...the manuals are
often not enough. We need to add some "natural intelligence" to the Internet
(human intermediation and problem solving).

So while I feel it is important to discuss how we select web resources let
us not feel we can do so in the absence of discussing the full
human-mediated reference process in a digital environment.

----------------------------------------------------
"Virtual" Dave Lankes      <rdlankes@...>
Associate Director ERIC IT/AskERIC
http://ericir.syr.edu/~rdlankes
----------------------------------------------------

Hi ...

At 11:59 PM 1/11/98 -0500, you wrote:
...
>We have to be careful not to over-estimate the use of the Internet, its
>information value to the average citizen. Our own (relative) facility

I understand your point ... but nonetheless ... the amount, quality, and
(for those who know what they are doing) ease of access to information
online continues to astound me ... and I make a living at this!!  Just
tonight, in an hour, I rounded up a complete package of information about a
state agency, new law relating to the program it administers (a program
that is being transferred to another agency), and newspaper commentary and
other documents about the relevant issues -- all to help a friend who has a
job interview on short notice and needs to be prepared in a hurry.  I
printed most of the stuff, and will also give her a disk with a 100+ page
law that tells her everything not in the material I printed.  (Oh, the
stuff I printed included a dozen-page bill analysis that might be
sufficient all by itself, but would be more difficult and time-consuming to
find through offline methods.)

That research would have taken DAYS -- if not weeks -- only a year or two ago.

>could make us a bit myopic.I find a part of the digital reference
>exchange has to be great specificity about use of sources and often a
>referral back to the real, not the virtual, library. </soapbox>

In this case (and many others I deal with), the virtual library is a far
better resource now than the physical one ... which is almost scary, as I
WORK for a library.  As addicted as I am to books (and constantly
surrounded by them), the future is digital.

Ken


--
Kenneth W. Umbach, Ph.D., Policy Analyst
California Research Bureau, California State Library
Sacramento, California
E-mail: kumbach@... (or kumbach@...)
Phone (voice) 916-653-6002 (fax) 916-654-5829
Personal Web page and selected papers: http://members.unlimited.net/~kumbach
This message reflects my opinion, not that of my employer or anyone else.

Thought our basic premises/experiences, which underlie our web work,
might be of use? We've provided public access to the Internet since
1993 and I spent three years as an AOL volunteer Internet coach--
specifically because I wanted to understand the public's expectations
and uses of online information. We've learned:
--people think full text everything is online ...often asked where
all the books in the Library of Congress are.
--we hear "but I click and click and I just keep getting more lists?!"
--quite a few think Yahoo *is* the Internet
--folks will use bad Internet sources rather than good tree-base. The
notoriety of the Net confers on it, for many, the stamp of authority.
--some people no longer go to libraries, because all the
machines are intimidating/make them feel "dumb". Latest person to tell me
this received a masters degree last spring in an arcane subject, at a very
good university...but her public library makes her feel uncomfortable.
  --others come in, but just frankly tell us they can't do anything.
"I'm a cyberphobe" a woman told us the other day. "That's fine," we told
her. "Lots of people are." Recent typicals?
Parents now send e-mail from their corporate accounts about their
children's homework assignments (new version of old problem).
My dentist, while going poke-poke, scrap, scrap, said "You know,
I spent nearly a half an hour online and couldn't find a stock
price for Compaq."
Child sent a note around 8PM a few weeks ago. "I need information on
New Jersey colonial clothes, implements and food." Aha! this is re-
quired in 4th grade curriculum here. Replied that best, quickest
answer would come from books, but as it was sleeting/snowing out
I also assumed Mom and Dad were NOT driving her to the library, so
gave her some URLs. Another child on a Saturday afternoon e-asked
"what is the largest freshwater lake in the world?" I grieve...a home
with no almanac or encyclopedia? Just a computer?
We have to be careful not to over-estimate the use of the Internet, its
information value to the average citizen. Our own (relative) facility
could make us a bit myopic.I find a part of the digital reference
exchange has to be great specificity about use of sources and often a
referral back to the real, not the virtual, library. </soapbox>

That's good that it shows the individual that it's coming from.  It
doesn't show up as a *personal* message, but that it comes from a list.
Isn't that the goal?

Kathie Olds

On Sun, 11 Jan 1998, Joe Schallan wrote:

> David Lankes wrote:
> >
> > One last test of the header today.
>
>
> Still shows as coming from David Lankes, not the list.
>
> --
> Joe Schallan
> jschall@...
>

David Lankes wrote:
>
> One last test of the header today.


Still shows as coming from David Lankes, not the list.

--
Joe Schallan
jschall@...

One last test of the header today.

----------------------------------------------------
"Virtual" Dave Lankes      <rdlankes@...>
Associate Director ERIC IT/AskERIC
http://ericir.syr.edu/~rdlankes
----------------------------------------------------

You might be interested in a discussion my colleague Lynne Olver wrote
up for the Digital Library Group of the NJ state library. I'll be
doing a workshop on this business of "how to write a webography"
next month, in south Jersey. Current thinking is we will have
librarians in each area of the state "growing" their own local
interest information and sources. Hopefully then a linking up of
our four regions will lead to a state "digital library" for our
citizens.   http://www.gti.net/mocolib1/create.html
For a year of e-ref at Morris Couty, see
http://scils.rutgers.edu/~saraweis/eref.html
-------------------
Morris County Library
http://www.gti.net/mocolib1/MCL.html

Richard Hathaway wrote:

> " We use librarians knowledgeable in the various subject fields to
> select
> and
> evaluate web resources (sites)--they are organized in a menued method
> hopefully familar to both our librarian colleagues and the public
> user.
> There us a search engine (we are working on an upgrade of this) which
> searches only our pages (this the menus) We also provide an "Advisor"
> service where a user can query the subject specialist for help in
> locating
> informaiton on the MEL menus.  We do not want to answer speific
> questions,
> (we do not want to be a online reference service for the world!) only
> provide assistance in navigating what we provide. Often, however, we
> find ourselves refering people to local libraries for help in finding
> information we know is not available via the sites on MEL.
>
>   Our name is misleading--the Michigan Electronic Library does try to
> be a
> comprehensive in-depth source of Internet resources for the people of
> Michigan, but its scope goes much! beyond just resources which relate
> specifically to the state of Michigan.'
>

I enjoyed looking at your site as this is something I am trying to do
for our patrons in-house.  I would be very interested in anyone's input
on your selection criteria for web sites, how much time your subject
specialists (or whoever) are investing in selection of web sites and who
does the maintenance and how often your lists are updated.  Anyone who
has any input can reply to me off-list.  If there is enough interest I
can summarize for the list.  Thanks.

Susan Barb
Orange Public Library
Orange, CA
sbarb@...

Sorry...just trying to fix the "From" problem.

----------------------------------------------------
"Virtual" Dave Lankes      <rdlankes@...>
Associate Director ERIC IT/AskERIC
http://ericir.syr.edu/~rdlankes
----------------------------------------------------

I LOVE MEL! and it's the first source I refer patrons to who are looking
for information on the Internet.

I'm so glad you started this list Dave.  It's great timing for me because
I'm taking a digital library class at SU in a couple of weeks as I work
toward earning my MLS.  I'm very interested in becoming a "Cybrarian"!

Kathie Olds
Otsego County Library
700 S. Otsego
Gaylord, MI  49735
517-732-5841

This is the welcome message I sent to the list, so the newer folks might not
have seen it. It is now set to be the default welcome message sent when
someone first subscribes to the list.

Note, we now have over 750 subscribers!!

---------- Forwarded message ----------

Welcome to the Dig_ref listserv. At last count there were over 170 people
subscribed after the first day, so I am assuming there is some interest in
the topic.

I am hoping this forum will help set an agenda for re-defining reference
services in the Internet context. Whether you call it question/answering,
user-services, reference desks, or help-desks all these activities are
seeking to find their way in a world that does not recognize constraints of
time or space.

Does a public library answer the reference questions of users in other
states? Do academic libraries answer the questions of those in other
institutions? How do government agencies meet user demands for personal
consultation and still meet their traditional mission of information
dissemination? How do expert "AskA" services handle the overwhelming volume
of questions? How can organizations migrate from phone-based support to
network support through e-mail and the web?

I believe all of these questions are related, irregardless of setting.
Digital reference allows us to match information needs to actual knowledge
for the first time in history on a large scale basis. For the first time we
can link a user not just to an artifact of knowledge (such as a book, video
or a web page), but to knowledge itself in the form of expertise and
experience.

How can we as information professionals, experts, and organizations meet the
increasing demand for synthesis not information, answers, not references,
people not FAQs? I hope you will help me explore the issues, tools and
possibilities in this forum. What are you doing to explore these areas? What
type of support/information/help do you need? Please share.

----------------------------------------------------
"Virtual" Dave Lankes      <rdlankes@...>
Project Director Virtual Reference Desk
http://vrd.org/
----------------------------------------------------

For users who signed on early and got that confidential stuff, here is the
updated subscriber information. Those of you who signed on Saturday got this
already. There is no new information, just the deletion of the "this list is
confidential stuff." Sorry for taking up list space.

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command to LISTSERV@....

Leslie,

I'm in the process of setting up a real-time reference service via a MOO.
It will be similar to what the Internet Public Library has done but will be
in an academic environment and geared towards specific classes, at least
for now.

What type of "chat" program will you be using and how are you planning to
staff it in terms of hours?  Are you just going to use students to staff
the area or will a librarian be available as well?

Barbara

>> Hello all!
>>
>> I work for the NODE, an Ontario-based network covering all aspects of
>> Distance Education.  We're in the process of augmenting our "Learner
>> Support" site ( http://node.on.ca/support/ ) with an online help desk.
>> The idea is that a lot of Distance Education students have reference
>> questions and information needs, but no library (academic OR public) in
>> their area that they can turn to for help.  We're toying with the idea
>> of providing e-mail help, or -- better yet -- a sort of monitored "chat"
>> area, with students helping students, overseen by NODE staff.  We
>> anticipate the kinds of things we'll be asked will be mainly for
>> questions about internet ready reference sources, and so on.
>>
>> Has anyone done anything like this before?  What kinds of question have
>> any of you received from Distance Education students?
>>
>> Looking forward to your input!  Thanks in advance!
>>
>> Leslie Fournier
>>
>> E-Mail  -- lfournier@...
>> Website -- http://node.on.ca
>> ********************************************
>> the NODE *
>> Stevenson-Lawson Building * The University of Western Ontario
>> London * Ontario * Canada * N6A 5B8
>> ********************************************
>>
>
****************************************************************************
*******
Barbara J. D'Angelo
Sims Memorial Library
Southeastern Louisiana University
Box 896
Hammond, LA  70402
(504) 549-5056
bdangelo@...

I think Vin meant to send this to the list.

Dick Hathaway     University of Michigan Library  MLink/MEL
-----------------------
On Sat, 10 Jan 1998, Vincent Munch (lar) wrote:

> we have one library in our network WLS that is attempting to venture forth
> and provide e-mail reference. Our group of 38 public libraries are like
> most public libraries: already overused and understaffed.  However, as I
> understand it, the Peekskill Public Library is attempting a service which
> they check for replies once a week; i think they only reply by e-mail or
> may call the patron if clarification is needed.
> I wish we had the staff and time to do it; as more internet accessibility
> is made here via additional terminal access, we are up to our ears in
> teaching classes on use, helping patrons locate info. on the NET, etc.
> Vin Munch
>

Greetings Diggers

I have to admit the scale of this list took me by surprise. We are now over
700 people subscribed in two days! I have made a few requested changes to
the list. I have removed all the mention of "confidential" from the list
messages. Once again...this list is NOT confidential...please share with all
who you think would be interested.

I have also changed the description of the list to simply discussing issues
of digital reference services.

There should be a digest available for the list (you received these
instructions upon signing-up)...let me know if there is a problem. Also, we
should have web searchable/browsable archives up in the next week.

I'm still working on changing the "sender" header so it shows up as coming
from the list, not the original sender.

Let me know if there is anything else we need.

On a personal note, I'm enjoying the conversation, and hope we can continue.
I am sensing both the interest and the need. Thank you all for contributing,
and continuing to contribute.

----------------------------------------------------
"Virtual" Dave Lankes      <rdlankes@...>
Associate Director ERIC IT/AskERIC
http://ericir.syr.edu/~rdlankes
----------------------------------------------------

Hi all-
   This post takes a somewhat different tact than what has been discussed
so far. Rather than discussing how we react to electronic mail querys, I
am asking for some thoughts on selecting and organizing Internet web sites
for access/reference by we librarians and our clients. In general the
question is- selected and organized lists vs. using general (perhaps at
times focused) web search engines such as Alta-Vista, Lycos, HotBot,
Northern Lights, Excite, etc.

   As a example of the classified virtual library approach please take a
look at our electronic library--the "Michigan Electronic Library (MEL)"
   http://mel.lib.mi.us/main-index.html  is the main menu--you can go back
to the home page    http://mel.lib.mi.us   for some background.

  We use librarians knowledgeable in the various subject fields to select
and
evaluate web resources (sites)--they are organized in a menued method
hopefully familar to both our librarian colleagues and the public user.
There us a search engine (we are working on an upgrade of this) which
searches only our pages (this the menus) We also provide an "Advisor"
service where a user can query the subject specialist for help in locating
informaiton on the MEL menus.  We do not want to answer speific questions,
(we do not want to be a online reference service for the world!) only
provide assistance in navigating what we provide. Often, however, we
find ourselves refering people to local libraries for help in finding
information we know is not available via the sites on MEL.

   Our name is misleading--the Michigan Electronic Library does try to be a
comprehensive in-depth source of Internet resources for the people of
Michigan, but its scope goes much! beyond just resources which relate
specifically to the state of Michigan.

  Let me know what you think of our product--we are at the point of
rethinking our structure and content so would like a lot of input-

Thanks!

Dick

Richard J Hathaway  (Dick)
MLink Director
117B Hatcher N.
University of Michigan
Ann Arbor, MI 48109-1205
rhat@...  313/763-9376  Fax313/764-3916
http://mel.lib.mi.us/