In answer to questions  my Solectria force is a pure ev- based on a
geo metro The battery pack is 156 volts so I have ordered 13 valence
batteries as a replacement pack   Based on the experiences of Stephen
Taylor with similar Valence batteries in his Solectria  I would expect
a  maximum  range of over 100 miles  -maybe even 120

  I maybe wrong but the mention of internal balancing  in data sheets I
think refers to  balancing and control of the 4  individual cells that
  make up the  12 volt battery

--- In edrivephev@yahoogroups.com, "philipdayson" <pdayson@...> wrote:
>
>  At present time I have on order from Valence  a set of U27 12xp (130
> AH) batteries for my Solectria Force  Valence has said the batteries
> will come with a 5 year warranty   2years unconditional,3 years
> prorated  I believe the edrive system will use U24 12xp  (100
> AH)batteries  If I understand correctly these batteries are not made
> up of dozens of individual cells If you go to the Valence web site
> http://www.valence.com/ucharge.asp
> you can find data sheets on  both of these batteries
>
> Phil Dayson
>
Phil, interesting.  Thank you.  I wonder if Valence will offer the
same warranty for the edrive system?  I know I'd feel better knowing
that the battery would be replaced for free for two years, if needed.

Your Solectria is a full EV right?  Just out of curiosity, how many
U-Charges are you ordering and how much range do you think you will get?

Also, I still think the Valence U-Charge batteries are comprised of
individual cells packed into the plastic container.  If you look at
the data sheet, it talks about internal cell balancing.  To me, that
implies multiple cells.

http://www.valence.com/pdffiles/U-Charge%20XP%20DS%20Jan06.pdf

At present time I have on order from Valence  a set of U27 12xp (130
AH) batteries for my Solectria Force  Valence has said the batteries
will come with a 5 year warranty   2years unconditional,3 years
prorated  I believe the edrive system will use U24 12xp  (100
AH)batteries  If I understand correctly these batteries are not made
up of dozens of individual cells If you go to the Valence web site
http://www.valence.com/ucharge.asp
you can find data sheets on  both of these batteries

Phil Dayson

--- In edrivephev@yahoogroups.com, Greg Hanssen <greg@...> wrote:
>
> >
>     The big question really is the battery itself though... While we
> anticipate the battery lasting at least 5-6 years, we won't be in any
> financial (or historical) position to offer a really long battery
warranty.
> We're not Toyota.  The warranty is still TBD, but don't expect very
> much on this side right now.. it's all cutting edge stuff and we don't
> have the history yet to be able to set long warranties.  As experience
> grows, so will the warranty.
>
>     But, that being said... The battery itself isn't really in any
danger
> of "failing" per se... What will happen as it ages is that you'll have
> slightly less range and less power/regen capability.  If as a 4 year
> old system you only get 40 miles of boosted range rather than 50
> and only 80% of the original power/regen would that be considered
> failed?  You'd still be able to get over 100mpg and still have full
capability
> as a normal HEV beyond the boost range.  Would you spend another $10k
> at this point to get a new pack or just live with the reduced
performance
> pack?
>
>     And then what about after 6 or 7 years?  The car may not be able to
> do as much EV driving or handle as much regen but you'd still be
able to get
> 100mpg under mild driving... At this point a lot depends on
temperature as
> well.
> If you live in a cooler climate your battery will last longer.
Batteries
> in Nevada and
> Arizona won't last as long.  Eventually we may have longer
warranties for
> cooler
> climates but that's all speculation.
>
>     In a nutshell I'd expect great performance for several years,
diminished
> performance after that but at no point will the car be LESS usable than
> when it was a normal HEV....
>
> -Greg
>

Greg, you say the battery is not in an danger of failing per se.  That
seems a little optimistic to me.  As I understand it, these Valence
batteries are made out of dozens of small individual cells about the
size of a D battery.  Wouldn't the failure of any of those cells
disable the entire battery?

But if the Valence batteries really are that reliable, couldn't a
warranty be written to protect a buyer against failure?  I can
understand the question of the batteries slowly losing capacity over
time, but what I would want to be protected against is a premature
failure.

I understand that you aren't Toytoa, but maybe Valence could provide a
warranty against premature failure?

Hello..


>I too am interested in the warranty that will be offered on the PHEV.
>  I've seen comments by Toyota that they aren't pursuing PHEV's right
>now because the batteries aren't durable enough to stand up to the
>strain of PHEV use.  I'd love to get a PHEV, but $12,000 is a lot of
>money and I would want to know that I'm covered if the battery fails.

Understandably!
     We're still not sure how the warranty issues will work out with
Toyota.  In reality they'd have to prove that the modification in
question caused a particular failure.  That might be a hard one
to show for the engine, motors or power inverters which are used
just the same in the PHEV as the normal HEV.  The motors and
power electronics are used the same except the electrical power
is coming more from the batteries and less from the generator motor.
There is one component between the battery and the HEV system
that could be overworked and we're watching this closely.. if this
part does fail we'll have to add software to ease up on this component
if it heats up too much.

     We may also offer an additional after-market vehicle warranty for
those who are really concerned about it.  This will obviously cost
extra and IMHO is a waste of money... especially since this is a
Toyota vehicle with an extraordinarily low maintenance record already.

      Obviously EDrive will have some sort of warranty on our electronics
and installation (TBD).

     The big question really is the battery itself though... While we
anticipate the battery lasting at least 5-6 years, we won't be in any
financial (or historical) position to offer a really long battery warranty.
We're not Toyota.  The warranty is still TBD, but don't expect very
much on this side right now.. it's all cutting edge stuff and we don't
have the history yet to be able to set long warranties.  As experience
grows, so will the warranty.

     But, that being said... The battery itself isn't really in any danger
of "failing" per se... What will happen as it ages is that you'll have
slightly less range and less power/regen capability.  If as a 4 year
old system you only get 40 miles of boosted range rather than 50
and only 80% of the original power/regen would that be considered
failed?  You'd still be able to get over 100mpg and still have full capability
as a normal HEV beyond the boost range.  Would you spend another $10k
at this point to get a new pack or just live with the reduced performance
pack?

     And then what about after 6 or 7 years?  The car may not be able to
do as much EV driving or handle as much regen but you'd still be able to get
100mpg under mild driving... At this point a lot depends on temperature as
well.
If you live in a cooler climate your battery will last longer.  Batteries
in Nevada and
Arizona won't last as long.  Eventually we may have longer warranties for
cooler
climates but that's all speculation.

     In a nutshell I'd expect great performance for several years, diminished
performance after that but at no point will the car be LESS usable than
when it was a normal HEV....

-Greg

I agree with Dr. Rob - upgrading your HEV to a PHEV is not an
economic decision but rather an emotional/moral one. You will never
recoup the 10-12K you invest in such a modification, just like you
will never get back the money you spend on a nice leather interior.
But people do those kinds of things all the time.

I think the folks who buy the Edrive mod will be taking a risk.
That's why they will be called 'early adopters'. You will be on the
leading edge of a new technology and there will be possible pitfalls.
Whether the risks are worth it is up the individual.

Having said that, in my opinion the people who are *really* taking a
risk are those who are building their own boards and assembling their
own battery packs. Those guys are the real risk takers and if I had
the EE talent I would be tempted to join them!

--- In edrivephev@yahoogroups.com, "Dr. Rob Wilder" <rob@...> wrote:
>
> Cars, imo, are a case where people make uneconomic decisions all
the
> time. For instance, why buy a BMW 7 series when a 5 series, a 3
> series, an Acura or Honda Accord will do fine? They do so because
> they value prestige, horsepower, or whatever else.... Myself, I
> richly value the ability to run my car off my home's clean (solar)
> electric power. I'd pay $12,000+ for this and assume the risk of
some
> battery failure. I realize that I'm making a decision that many
would
> not (such as I drive a 1969 Lotus, 1,100 pound car without a
regular
> windshield, doors, heater, etc), and hence I am a rather an 'early-
> adopter'. That said, i believe a price point $10K-$12K for a PHEV
is
> a good business model, and can sell quite well in viable numbers.
> Much will depend on the cost of oil, economy, significance of
global
> warming etc--but just as some people spend tens of thousands more
for
> greater horsepower, others might spend that on the alternative
> fueling option. That's just my opinion, and i mention it because i
> think early adopters have to assume they are paying more, and
getting
> rather less warranty protection, than will be available once
greater
> numbers are achieved. That was the case, too, with my solar power
and
> I am delighted with that PV. (I am even adding another 3 kW of
solar
> PV now, as i look forward to a PHEV that will draw some additional
> power from my home). Valence, and others may find cost reductions
> with greater production, so i hope that we help spur Li-Ion, Li-
air,
> Zinc-air and other chemistries that nicely resolve power storage,
> which has been the Achilles heel for BEVs. I'd also want a BEV,
but
> that's another story!  ; - )
>
> Rob Wilder
>
>
> On Apr 13, 2006, at 6:34 AM, Tadashi wrote:
>
> > I would like the plug-in also but I do not think it will be
> > worthwhile until the price drops to between $3k-$6k.  For $12k I
> > would hope to get another 8 yrs or 100k mile warranty.
> >
> > Tad
> >
> > On 4/13/06, livegreen_drivegreen <livegreen_drivegreen@...>
> > wrote:
> > --- In edrivephev@yahoogroups.com, "green01green01"
> > <ggreensprint1@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Can someone provide some details about the battery technology
being
> > > delivered on the Prius PHEV conversions.
> > >
> > > I read a press release a while back indicating EDrive (or Clean-

> > Tech)
> > > had ordered special Lithium Polymer batteries from Valence
> > Technologies.
> > >
> > > Are these the nine kWh batteries mentioned as being used in the
AQMD
> > > deliveries?
> > >
> > > Are these batteries what regular customers can expect?
> > >
> > > I know that A123, Johnson Controls (with Saft), Electrovaya,
and
> > a few
> > > other battery companies have been in the news lately.
> > >
> > > Valence website mentions a robust 2000 deep discharge cycles
for
> > their
> > > Lithium batteries.
> > >
> > > What kind of warranty, if any, is Valence (or whoever) providing
> > > EDrive?  What kind of warranty, if any, can customers expect?
> > >
> > > Early adopters can't expect much here in the way of
warranties,
> > but I
> > > was curious what to expect.
> > >
> > > I suspect based on feedback from the demonstration vehicles,
there
> > > will be adjustments in the allowed discharge levels that could
> > affect
> > > a battery warranty.
> > >
> >
> >
> > I too am interested in the warranty that will be offered on the
PHEV.
> > I've seen comments by Toyota that they aren't pursuing PHEV's
right
> > now because the batteries aren't durable enough to stand up to the
> > strain of PHEV use.  I'd love to get a PHEV, but $12,000 is a lot
of
> > money and I would want to know that I'm covered if the battery
fails.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
> >
> >  Visit your group "edrivephev" on the web.
> >
> >  To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> >   edrivephev-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> >
> >  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
Service .
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > ___________________________________________________
> >
> > Tad
> > Visit me at http://tadashi.priuschat.com
> > "Never go to bed mad. Stay up and fight." --Phyllis Diller
> > ___________________________________________________
> > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
> >
> >  Visit your group "edrivephev" on the web.
> >
> >  To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> >  edrivephev-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> >
> >  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
Service.
> >
> >
>

--- In edrivephev@yahoogroups.com, "green01green01"
<ggreensprint1@...> wrote:
>
> Can someone provide some details about the battery technology being
> delivered on the Prius PHEV conversions.
>
> I read a press release a while back indicating EDrive (or Clean-Tech)
> had ordered special Lithium Polymer batteries from Valence Technologies.
>
> Are these the nine kWh batteries mentioned as being used in the AQMD
> deliveries?
>
> Are these batteries what regular customers can expect?
>
> I know that A123, Johnson Controls (with Saft), Electrovaya, and a few
> other battery companies have been in the news lately.
>
> Valence website mentions a robust 2000 deep discharge cycles for their
> Lithium batteries.
>
> What kind of warranty, if any, is Valence (or whoever) providing
> EDrive?  What kind of warranty, if any, can customers expect?
>
> Early adopters can't expect much here in the way of warranties, but I
> was curious what to expect.
>
> I suspect based on feedback from the demonstration vehicles, there
> will be adjustments in the allowed discharge levels that could affect
> a battery warranty.
>


I too am interested in the warranty that will be offered on the PHEV.
  I've seen comments by Toyota that they aren't pursuing PHEV's right
now because the batteries aren't durable enough to stand up to the
strain of PHEV use.  I'd love to get a PHEV, but $12,000 is a lot of
money and I would want to know that I'm covered if the battery fails.

This messages includes:
* News of the new CalCars PHEV Prius
* List of the first 10 Prius conversions
* Clarifications about EnergyCS/EDrive/Amberjac
You can view and make comment about this message at our blog at
<http://www.hybridcars.com/blogs/power/sf-bay-area-second-phev>.

CALCARS/FELIX KRAMER'S NEW PLUG-IN HYBRID PRIUS
We've taken delivery of a converted Prius from EnergyCS. In October,
2003, I became one of the first '04 Prius owners in Northern
California. Ever since, my white car has been ready with its "Plug
OK" license plates. Now it's finally a plug-in hybrid. (See
updated  specs at what used to be called "PRIUS+ Fact Sheet" and is
now the renamed, updated and cut from 4 to 2 pages "Conversions Fact
Sheet" including all potential sources:
<http://www.calcars.org/conversions-factsheet.pdf>).

I'm starting to show it to entrepreneurs, civic leaders and
high-wealth individuals who can't wait to own the world's cleanest,
most technologically advanced, unlimited range vehicle. As the
world's first individual, non-institutional owner of a plug-in
hybrid, I could be the guinea pig for requests to utilities and state
agencies for PHEV categories for electric rates, metering and other
issues. I can provide its designers with customer feedback about
features and usability. And I can start to hope for a rooftop
photovoltaic system!

Last weekend I drove from Southern California back to the Bay Area,
essentially as a normal hybrid except for the first 50 miles of the
trip. These were the car's last miles of 36,000 at a lifetime average
of 48.5 MPG.

FIRST RESULTS
How things have changed! I used to dread a day filled with short
trips -- each time the engine warmup would kill the Prius MPG. Now I
love those local errands -- they're mostly all-electric. In my first
two days, I drove 130.71 miles on 1.102 gallons of gasoline. That's
118 MPG. These phenomenal numbers included an airport run with about
40 miles of 65 MPH highway driving.

Yesterday, I made a round-trip from the Peninsula to downtown San
Francisco: 64 miles, including about 55 at highways speeds (North on
flat Rte. 101, back on hilly I-280). Bottom line: 81.4 MPG.

Last night, as I pulled into my garage, I asked myself, "I'm eager to
get home. Should I take the time to go around the back of my car and
plug in or just go straight inside?" I decided to make the effort.
(Just for fun, I clocked it: 9 seconds extra.)

My trip yesterday included 98 Watt-hours/mile or 6.2 kWhr out of the
battery. (When I get a small line meter, I'll know about Watt-hours
into the battery.) This all shows that 100+ MPG is possible with an
incomplete after-market conversion that can't be all-electric over 34
MPH. Toyota could do much better! We'll be posting more performance
information in the coming weeks.

Monday we put what I'd call as "tasteful but very visible" signs on
the sides and back -- see photos of the car, the display (and the
battery pack before it was sealed shut) at
<http://www.calcars.org/photos.html>. We're developing a series of
modular handouts for our two CalCars PHEVs and for the Seattle and
other future cars. You can see that flyer, headlined "This car gets
more than 100 miles per gallon (plus electricity) at
<http://www.calcars.org/calcars-modular-edrive.pd>.

If you're in the Bay Area, your first viewing opportunity is this
Saturday at the meeting of the Silicon Valley Chapter of the Electric
Auto Association <http://eaasv.org>, 10am to 12:30pm at
Hewlett-Packard, 3000 Hanover St., Palo Alto, CA, building 20 level
A, Auditorium (you'll also see the new WrightSpeed high-performance
car there). Then there's our public conversion in San Mateo April
22-23 at the Maker Faire <http://www.calcars.org/makerfaire.html>.
Keep an eye on <http://www.calcars.org/events.html> for other events.

Thanks to Pete Nortman, Greg Hanssen, Seth Seaberg and the entire
EDrive team for making this possible and to Ron Gremban and the
CalCars volunteers for starting it all!

PRIUS CONVERSIONS CHRONOLOGY
This is the world's seventh Prius converted to a PHEV. For those who
like history, in order they are:
1. CalCars PRIUS+ by Ron Gremban and CalCars team, Fall 2004
2. EnergyCS by Greg Hanssen, Pete Nortman and team, March 2005
3. Energy CS/Clean-Tech by EnergyCS, May 2005
4. Hymotion by Hymotion, February 2006
5. Electro Energy by CalCars and Electro Energy, March 2006
6. South Coast Air Quality Management District by EnergyCS, March 2006
7. CalCars by EnergyCS, April 2006
Coming soon:
8. Ryan Fulcher of Seattle Electric Auto Association by Maker Faire
team, April 21-22
9-10. Sacramento Municipal Utility District and Cityof Santa Monica by EnergyCS

BACKGROUND ABOUT THE COMPANIES AND CALCARS' RELATIONSHIP TO THEM
We encourage and promote all aftermarket conversion efforts as a way
to get more PHEVs on the roads, increase awareness, demonstrate the
market and motivate automakers to build production-line PHEVs.

While the non-profit California Cars Initiative and the for-profit
companies described below cooperate in many ways, there is no
financial relationship between the organizations. This vehicle is
part of EnergyCS's contract with South Coast Air Quality Management
District (for details see
<http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/calcars-news/message/41>). We
paid full costs and provided technical services as our match to the contract.

Here's how the companies fit together: the engineering company
EnergyCS and integrator Clean-Tech jointly formed EDrive Sysems, LLC
to deliver retail after-market installed conversions. All the cars
built to date come from EnergyCS--you won't see EDrive cars until
they are sold to the public. You can get on a waiting list at
<http://www.edrivesystems.com/news.html>.

Finally, here's an edited explanation from Pete Nortman of EnergyCS
about the relationship between the British company Amberjac and
EnergyCS (this clarifies the April 5 news story at
<http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/calcars-news/message/346>.

(1) Like EnergyCS' pioneering work with Calcars in California,
EnergyCS and Amberjac Projects (AJP) worked together to create the
first PHEV Prius in the UK and the EEU last summer. AJPs contract
with EnergyCS is for a PHEV Prius prototype kit. To date, EnergyCS
has supplied AJP with components and instructions to do a preliminary
prototype demonstration vehicle, which AJP has demonstrated
successfully on multiple occasions..

(2) The collaborative effort between AJP and EnergyCS on this
prototype is leading to additional opportunities for EnergyCS and AJP
to work together on additional projects in the realm of battery
systems development and PHEV market research.

(3) EnergyCS and Amberjac Projects, and the principals of EDrive all
agreed last April that AJP would be the European distributor for
EDrive when a product is released.

(4) EnergyCS has US and international patents pending on its PHEV
conversion technology for the Prius and its Battery Management
System, and EnergyCS is the sole owner of the PHEV IP developed
here.  Until the patents are granted, the technology will remain
proprietary and a trade secret of EnergyCS.  Ultimately, EDrive will
be a licensee of the IP for its market.

--  --  --  --  --  --  --  --  --  --  -- --
        Felix Kramer  fkramer@...
       Founder  California Cars Initiative
              http://www.calcars.org
     http://groups.yahoo.com/group/calcars-news
      http://www.hybridcars.com/blogs/power
               http://www.bettah.org
           http://www.eaa-phev.org
--  --  --  --  --  --  --  --  --  --  -- --

I live in the Portland Oregon area and I have yet to turn on the heat
in my Prius. I keep the temp set at 65 and turn off the fan so the
ICE has no excuse to run. I don't mind but then my formative years
were spent in air-cooled VWs which really didn't have much in the way
of a heating system.

So, this would not be an issue for me. And as Greg says the ICE will
run eventually so there will be some heat.

Jim


--- In edrivephev@yahoogroups.com, "Dr. Rob Wilder" <rob@...> wrote:
>
> I agree 100% with everything that Greg says. Because of their
> efficiency (it's a good thing), an EV just won't have much waste
heat
> to capture and put into the cabin. (There's only a bit from AC
> motors). Using resistance heating (like the coils in a stove) is a
> power-suck and those high-quality electrons are better used to
push
> the car. Better to use an energy-rich, dense liquid fuel apart
from
> the batteries/EV system... or to rely on waste heat from the car's
> ICE when that is running (at only around 18% efficiency). Myself,
I'm
> in San Diego and so can hardly wait to get a PHEV from EDrive
since
> heating is not an issue here (my other car is a 1969 Lotus Super 7
> which doesn't even have doors or a windshield, so a Prius PHEV
> without heater is positively a plush ride!!).
>
> Rob
>
>
> On Apr 10, 2006, at 6:28 PM, Greg Hanssen wrote:
>
> > At 10:56 PM 4/10/2006 +0000, you wrote:
> >
> > >Thanks for the information.  Obviously, at this prototype stage,
> > >it's not an issue.  But tbe heating issue is certainly one that
> > >needs to be solved before PHEV's could become anything close to
> > >mainstream.
> >
> > It's really not that big of a problem.. You just need to burn a
little
> > gasoline.
> > You can still have a warm engine (and cabin) and get 100mpg.
> > In some of the EVs sold in northern climates they had a small
> > liquid fueled heater... sad to say there isn't a much better way
> > to make heat fast than burning fuel.. electric heaters use a lot
of
> > juice.
> >
> > >So I take it that the electic motor doesn't really generate much
> > >heat.
> >
> > No.. motors are very efficient (ie, they don't generate much
heat).
> > Internal combustion engines are very inefficient (ie, they
generate
> > lots of heat!)
> >
> > >  So the other option is some type of electric heat.  Or
> > >perhaps using a heat pump type a/c unit?
> >
> > Yeah.. that's what some EVs used... but they mostly sucked.
> > They got mildly warm, but not hot.. if you want heat you really
> > should burn something.
> >
> > >Again, thanks for the information.  It's pretty disappointing.
> >
> > These are just the basic laws of physics..
> > It's not so bad!  Besides, unless you're going to spend your
> > whole day under 34mph, you'll want to turn on the gas engine
> > anyway.
> >
> > -Greg
> >
> >
> >
> > SPONSORED LINKS
> > Business finance course Business to business finance Small
business
> > finance
> > Business finance consultant Business finance schools
	 Business
> > finance schools
> >
> > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
> >
> >  Visit your group "edrivephev" on the web.
> >
> >  To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> >  edrivephev-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> >
> >  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
Service.
> >
> >
>

Perhaps you could throw in some seat warmers for those in cold
regions.  Surely even a nice high quality and powerful (ie: toasty)
12v seat warmer wouldn't suck as much juice as say a pair of
conventional 500W electric heaters.  It seems to be that it would be a
shame to resort to a liquid burner that an EV might use (which seems
ironic to begin with however true) when there's still a perfectly good
ICE for sub-zero conditions...

... Speaking of which, how well will the Valence batteries deal with
very cold conditions?  Will charging produce enough heat?  Lithium
can't be float charged, so what plans do you have for battery heating?

As long as you're plugging in to charge it should be simple enough to
use a little extra juice to maintain the warmth of in a mass of
battery.  I have heard and it makes sense that doing so also may have
the beneficial side effect of maintaining a slightly warmer cabin
temp.  Might even work out keep windows from frosting, auto-eternal
defroster anyone?  Anyway, I'm probably getting a little to far ahead
of things here.

L8r
  Ryan

--- In edrivephev@yahoogroups.com, Greg Hanssen <greg@...> wrote:
>
> At 10:56 PM 4/10/2006 +0000, you wrote:
>
> >Thanks for the information.  Obviously, at this prototype stage,
> >it's not an issue.  But tbe heating issue is certainly one that
> >needs to be solved before PHEV's could become anything close to
> >mainstream.
>
> It's really not that big of a problem.. You just need to burn a
little
> gasoline.
> You can still have a warm engine (and cabin) and get 100mpg.
> In some of the EVs sold in northern climates they had a small
> liquid fueled heater... sad to say there isn't a much better way
> to make heat fast than burning fuel.. electric heaters use a lot of
> juice.
>
> >So I take it that the electic motor doesn't really generate much
> >heat.
>
> No.. motors are very efficient (ie, they don't generate much heat).
> Internal combustion engines are very inefficient (ie, they generate
> lots of heat!)
>
> >  So the other option is some type of electric heat.  Or
> >perhaps using a heat pump type a/c unit?
>
> Yeah.. that's what some EVs used... but they mostly sucked.
> They got mildly warm, but not hot.. if you want heat you really
> should burn something.
>
> >Again, thanks for the information.  It's pretty disappointing.
>
> These are just the basic laws of physics..
> It's not so bad!  Besides, unless you're going to spend your
> whole day under 34mph, you'll want to turn on the gas engine
> anyway.
>
> -Greg
>
Thanks again for the information.  If I'm understanding you
correctly, in normal driving in cold weather, the gas engine should
come on enough to heat the inside of the car in a reasonable amount
of time, while still allowing me to get great mileage (e.g., close
to 100 MPG).  Is this correct?  Even on 15 minute trips in the city
when the car is cold?  Thanks again.  Mark

At 10:56 PM 4/10/2006 +0000, you wrote:

>Thanks for the information.  Obviously, at this prototype stage,
>it's not an issue.  But tbe heating issue is certainly one that
>needs to be solved before PHEV's could become anything close to
>mainstream.

It's really not that big of a problem.. You just need to burn a little
gasoline.
You can still have a warm engine (and cabin) and get 100mpg.
In some of the EVs sold in northern climates they had a small
liquid fueled heater... sad to say there isn't a much better way
to make heat fast than burning fuel.. electric heaters use a lot of
juice.

>So I take it that the electic motor doesn't really generate much
>heat.

No.. motors are very efficient (ie, they don't generate much heat).
Internal combustion engines are very inefficient (ie, they generate
lots of heat!)

>  So the other option is some type of electric heat.  Or
>perhaps using a heat pump type a/c unit?

Yeah.. that's what some EVs used... but they mostly sucked.
They got mildly warm, but not hot.. if you want heat you really
should burn something.

>Again, thanks for the information.  It's pretty disappointing.

These are just the basic laws of physics..
It's not so bad!  Besides, unless you're going to spend your
whole day under 34mph, you'll want to turn on the gas engine
anyway.

-Greg

--- In edrivephev@yahoogroups.com, Greg Hanssen <greg@...> wrote:
>
> At 04:27 PM 4/9/2006 +0000, you wrote:
> >Will the Prius car heater work in all-electric mode?  I
understand
the
> >a/c works fine, but it won't be very comfortable for the short
drive
> >to the office in the winter unless the heater works.
>
> Unfortunately to get heat you really need a hot engine.
> There is no heater per se... (purely electric cars had
> HVACs or resistive heaters but they didn't work very
> well..) Nothing generates heat like an internal combustion
> engine..
>
> So those of you in colder climates are faced with a
> difficult choice!
> -Greg
>
Thanks for the information.  Obviously, at this prototype stage,
it's not an issue.  But tbe heating issue is certainly one that
needs to be solved before PHEV's could become anything close to
mainstream.

How are companies serious about selling $10k or higher kits if they
can't be used in norther climates?  Some of these companies are
Canadian or UK based.  In Seattle, which is pretty mild, you need
heat in the morning about 8 months of the year.  In many places it's
a lot colder.

So I take it that the electic motor doesn't really generate much
heat.  So the other option is some type of electric heat.  Or
perhaps using a heat pump type a/c unit?

Again, thanks for the information.  It's pretty disappointing.

Mark

Hello,
At 01:03 AM 4/9/2006 +0000, you wrote:
>1. Do any Edrive mods require changes to the standard Prius software?

No.  Although some Prius computers are completely replaced with
EnergyCS hardware.

>2. Have you considered disabling the gasoline engine until the battery
>level goes to 20%, regardless of speed?  This would make the Prius an
>EV with gas backup.

That's what many people assumed a plug-in hybrid would be.. but
given the way the Prius was designed, it's not easy to do.
Because we don't modify any of the Prius Hybrid control
software, we don't have the ability to change these modes..
Basically you're all EV under 34mph, but once the engine
starts, you take a hit on gas consumption... But... once
the system has warmed up you can get EV performance at
a wide variety of speeds.  If you're really careful you can get
over 200mpg, but it's not easy (and you won't make many
friends on the road driving at those speeds...)

>3. If you beefed up the batteries with another bank, you could
>conceivably achieve 100 miles of driving without touching the
>gasoline.  Most commuters would be able to drive for months without
>every resorting to gas, it would just be there as a backup.

There's always a trade-off between cost (+size+weight) and
performance...
Would you pay an extra $10,000 for something that might
only be used a couple times a year?   This comes up a lot
in talking about EV range... If you could buy an electric car
with 100 miles range that satisfied 97% of your driving needs
for $40,000 or an electric car with 200 miles range that satisfied
99.5% of your driving needs for $60,000 which would you buy?
Is it worth an extra $20,000 to get incrementally closer to 100%?
Of course you'll never have a 100% solution that was 100%
battery is there will always be that one roadtrip that's just
beyond the range of the car...

For a PHEV it's not as critical because you still have the
gasoline engine so you'll never be stranded.  It becomes
a question of how much battery would most people use
during an average day?  Some might argue that 50 miles
is too much, but on the plus side if you normally drive
30 miles but have a 50 mile battery then the battery will
last a lot longer because it's not being fully drained every
day... always trade-offs.
-Greg

At 04:27 PM 4/9/2006 +0000, you wrote:
>Will the Prius car heater work in all-electric mode?  I understand the
>a/c works fine, but it won't be very comfortable for the short drive
>to the office in the winter unless the heater works.

Unfortunately to get heat you really need a hot engine.
There is no heater per se... (purely electric cars had
HVACs or resistive heaters but they didn't work very
well..) Nothing generates heat like an internal combustion
engine..

So those of you in colder climates are faced with a
difficult choice!
-Greg

Will the Prius car heater work in all-electric mode?  I understand the
a/c works fine, but it won't be very comfortable for the short drive
to the office in the winter unless the heater works.

Thanks.  Mark in Seattle
(2004 Prius owner)

1. Do any Edrive mods require changes to the standard Prius software?

2. Have you considered disabling the gasoline engine until the battery
level goes to 20%, regardless of speed?  This would make the Prius an
EV with gas backup.

3. If you beefed up the batteries with another bank, you could
conceivably achieve 100 miles of driving without touching the
gasoline.  Most commuters would be able to drive for months without
every resorting to gas, it would just be there as a backup.

Dave from Atlanta

That's a pretty loaded set of questions, regarding warranties.
Take your time, I'm also interested in the answers.

Valence isn't the only maker of Lithium batteries, however they
are a unique and very well suited choice for vehicle applications.
Especially in the wrelm of safety.  Other flavors may be better
when it comes to power density or cost, but Valence has been a
favorite of mine for some time.  I'm glad to see that they will
be getting some good real world use, and hopefully their exotic
cost will come down substantially so that I can afford them to!

L8r
  Ryan

--- In edrivephev@yahoogroups.com, "green01green01"
<ggreensprint1@...> wrote:
>
> Can someone provide some details about the battery technology being
> delivered on the Prius PHEV conversions.
>
> I read a press release a while back indicating EDrive (or Clean-Tech)
> had ordered special Lithium Polymer batteries from Valence Technologies.
>
> Are these the nine kWh batteries mentioned as being used in the AQMD
> deliveries?
>
> Are these batteries what regular customers can expect?
>
> I know that A123, Johnson Controls (with Saft), Electrovaya, and a few
> other battery companies have been in the news lately.
>
> Valence website mentions a robust 2000 deep discharge cycles for their
> Lithium batteries.
>
> What kind of warranty, if any, is Valence (or whoever) providing
> EDrive?  What kind of warranty, if any, can customers expect?
>
> Early adopters can't expect much here in the way of warranties, but I
> was curious what to expect.
>
> I suspect based on feedback from the demonstration vehicles, there
> will be adjustments in the allowed discharge levels that could affect
> a battery warranty.
>

Can someone provide some details about the battery technology being
delivered on the Prius PHEV conversions.

I read a press release a while back indicating EDrive (or Clean-Tech)
had ordered special Lithium Polymer batteries from Valence Technologies.

Are these the nine kWh batteries mentioned as being used in the AQMD
deliveries?

Are these batteries what regular customers can expect?

I know that A123, Johnson Controls (with Saft), Electrovaya, and a few
other battery companies have been in the news lately.

Valence website mentions a robust 2000 deep discharge cycles for their
Lithium batteries.

What kind of warranty, if any, is Valence (or whoever) providing
EDrive?  What kind of warranty, if any, can customers expect?

Early adopters can't expect much here in the way of warranties, but I
was curious what to expect.

I suspect based on feedback from the demonstration vehicles, there
will be adjustments in the allowed discharge levels that could affect
a battery warranty.

--- In edrivephev@yahoogroups.com, "wilderhill1" <rob@...> wrote:

> my home is solar powered, i'd like to 1) also use the sun to charge
these Li-
> Ion batteries in my car as well.

Hi wilderhill,
for the waiting time untill the plugin is available for you (and me in
Germany)and before you buy additional PV Modules you can do some small
and cheap insulating works with your Prius.
The aircondition works with electricity, so it makes sense to insulate
the roof inside, the doors and so on with thin flexible PE plates
(recreation vehicles) and turn the rear Windows reflecting.
Adioha Germany driving a Citroen Saxo electrique now 60000km.

I am looking forward to getting one of the EDrive conversions, asap. Because
my home is solar powered, i'd like to 1) also use the sun to charge these Li-
Ion batteries in my car as well. I'm thinking of 2) subsequently working myself,
on a either ethanol flex-fuel ICE/ Li-Ion battery Hybrid car, or a pure BEV....

But for the first car, I'm following EDrive for announcements of when this
EDrive Conversion will be ready...  I am hopeful it's by this May/June, or so...

This is really great news to hear. For a long time I've looked at the
EDrive web site and saw no changes.

I have a 2006 Prius and am very interested in this mod. The price may
take a little longer to get used to but hopefully that will come down
over time. Even if it remains at the 'under $12,000' level, I would
still be tempted.

I'd also like to hear any buzz from the testing going on with the
initial batch of 8 vehicles. For example, how stable is the system
and what differences one could expect to see in the car as compared
to the stock system.

Finally, any info on planned installation sites would be welcome.

Jim Caufield
Beaverton, Oregon
--- In edrivephev@yahoogroups.com, Greg Hanssen <greg@...> wrote:
>
> And so it begins..
> At 01:05 PM 4/6/2006 +0000, you wrote:
> >On the news page at Edrive http://www.edrivesystems.com/news.html
> >is the announcment that the First Commercial Plug-In Hybrid
Electric
> >Prius Vehicle (PHEV) was delivered.
>
> Yes.. we're trying to get an e-mail out to all those who've written
to
> info@edrivesystems but it's been a bit of work with the ISP handling
> such a large e-mail list.. We hope to get it out soon, then more
people
> will be aware of this Yahoo group.
>
> >My hope is that Greg Hanssen and others at EDrive will keep us
updated
> >on when ordinary folk can get access to this technology.
>
> That's the goal.
>
> >My special interest is information on Ford Escape Hybrid
conversions.
> >  I've heard nothing about any test vehicles, only that it's
planned.
> >Does anyone have information about this?
>
> We're focused on the Prius right now as we're working to satisfy our
> existing EnergyCS contracts AND finish development of the final
> commercial EDrive system.  We've done some preliminary testing
> on the Escape, but the first prototype will have to wait until the
> EDrive Prius is launched.  I'd like to think we'll have a prototype
> Escape PHEV up and running this summer but every time I make
> time line predictions I get in trouble.  :|
> -Greg
>

And so it begins..
At 01:05 PM 4/6/2006 +0000, you wrote:
>On the news page at Edrive http://www.edrivesystems.com/news.html
>is the announcment that the First Commercial Plug-In Hybrid Electric
>Prius Vehicle (PHEV) was delivered.

Yes.. we're trying to get an e-mail out to all those who've written to
info@edrivesystems but it's been a bit of work with the ISP handling
such a large e-mail list.. We hope to get it out soon, then more people
will be aware of this Yahoo group.

>My hope is that Greg Hanssen and others at EDrive will keep us updated
>on when ordinary folk can get access to this technology.

That's the goal.

>My special interest is information on Ford Escape Hybrid conversions.
>  I've heard nothing about any test vehicles, only that it's planned.
>Does anyone have information about this?

We're focused on the Prius right now as we're working to satisfy our
existing EnergyCS contracts AND finish development of the final
commercial EDrive system.  We've done some preliminary testing
on the Escape, but the first prototype will have to wait until the
EDrive Prius is launched.  I'd like to think we'll have a prototype
Escape PHEV up and running this summer but every time I make
time line predictions I get in trouble.  :|
-Greg

On the news page at Edrive http://www.edrivesystems.com/news.html
is the announcment that the First Commercial Plug-In Hybrid Electric
Prius Vehicle (PHEV) was delivered.

My hope is that Greg Hanssen and others at EDrive will keep us updated
on when ordinary folk can get access to this technology.

My special interest is information on Ford Escape Hybrid conversions.
  I've heard nothing about any test vehicles, only that it's planned.
Does anyone have information about this?

Testing EDrive PHEV user group on Yahoo..
-Greg