Economics of finance, industrial policy, geopolitics etc.

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Dear Geoffrey & Michael:

Many thanks for your interesting exchanges.

While I have been occupied with other things, a quick reading through them
suggests to me that Michael has come to a point in his thinking where he
discerns, but has yet to put a handle on, certain important questions.

If I read him correctly, the following simple question may help clarify
things:

Why do banks pay interest on deposits?

Gunnar



----- Original Message -----
From: <GGard97342@...>
To: <Hudsonmi@...>
Cc: <gang8-l@...>
Sent: Tuesday, August 10, 1999 2:31 PM
Subject: Governemnt borrowing


>
> Geoffrey Gardiner to Michael
> 10 August 1999
>
> Dear Michael,
>
> Yesterday I spent 6 hours pondering and writing the answer about the
> government borrowing from the central bank at a nil rate of interest. I
> should have waited to talk to Christopher. This morning I phoned him and
> summarised my thoughts. At the end of about 4 minutes talk Chris put the
> argument in one crisp sentence.
>
> "If the Bank of England lends money to the government at a nil rate of
> interest, the clearing banks end up with interest bearing liabilities up
to
> the same amount which are matched with their non-interest bearing accounts
at
> the Bank of England."
>

Geoffrey:
Perhaps you can use these quotes?

From Wilhelm Roscher, Principles of Economics, 1878:

Corresponding to the division of labour is

(§64) "The coöperation or combination ... of labor ... Both are but
different sides of the one idea of social labor, in so far as they would
disturb one another, and the union or combination of them so far as they
help one another."
(§66) "Coöperation in time is of equal importance"
and
"The most striking means by which such a coöperation has been advanced in
modern times is public credit, "a draft on posterity;""

From Friedrich List:

     The system of State credit is one of the finest creations of more recent
statesmanship, and a blessing for nations, inasmuch as it serves as the
means of dividing among several generations the costs of those achievements
and exertions of the present generation which are calculated to benefit the
nationality for all future times, and which guarantee to it continued
existence, growth, greatness, power, and increase of the powers of
production; it becomes a curse only if it serves for useless national
expenditure, and thus not merely does not further the progress of future
generations, but deprives them beforehand of the means of undertaking great
national works, or also if the burden of the payment of interest of the
national debt is thrown on the consumptions of the working classes instead
of on capital.
     State debts are bills which the present generation draws on future ones.
This can take place either to the special advantage of the present
generation or the special advantage of the future one, or to the common
advantage of both. In the first case only is this system an objectionable
one. But all cases in which the object in view is the maintenance and
promotion of the greatness and welfare of the nationality, so far as the
means required for the purpose surpass the powers of the present generation,
belong to the last category.
     No expenditure of the present generation is so decidedly and specially
profitable to future generations as that for the improvement of the means of
transport, especially because such undertakings as a rule, besides
increasing the powers of production of future generations, do also in a
constantly increasing ratio not merely pay interest  on the cost in the
course of time, but also yield dividends. The present generation is,
therefore, not merely entitled to throw on to future generations the capital
outlay of these works and fair interest on it (as long as they do not yield
sufficient income), but further acts unjustly towards itself and to the true
fundamental principles of national economy, if it takes the burden or even
any considerable part of it on its own shoulders. (National System, 1841,
p.297)



Best wishes!
Vennlig hilsen!

Arno



----- Original Message -----
From: <GGard97342@...>
To: <Hudsonmi@...>
Cc: <gang8-l@...>
Sent: Tuesday, August 10, 1999 5:31 PM
Subject: Governemnt borrowing

*One phrase is worth a thousand pictures.

Arno quotes --

>(§66) "Coöperation in time is of equal importance"
>and
>"The most striking means by which such a coöperation has been advanced in
>modern times is public credit, "a draft on posterity;""

>>From Friedrich List:
>
>The present generation is, therefore, not merely entitled to
>throw on to future generations the capital outlay of these
>works and fair interest on it (as long as they do not yield
>sufficient income), but further acts unjustly towards itself and to the true
>fundamental principles of national economy, if it takes the burden or even
>any considerable part of it on its own shoulders. (National System, 1841,
>p.297)


Greetings!

Indeed, public credit isn't neutral - it's a two-edged sword.

Currency note clearing arrangements were once predominantly private,
isn't it? But then, after WW2, you notice governments creating Central
Banks in Europe.

In that way the scope of public accountabilty in the use of the sword
was enhanced.

Is the FED now a private sword suspended over humanity?

Rgds

\\'


-----------------------------------
Pennies sent overseas by monetarism
-----------------------------------

TIME magazine's epitaph to President J.R. Jayewardene, the model
user (1977) of Friedmanist reforms in Sri Lanka:

"Early implemented economic reform but leaves his country
a legacy of civil war."

--- -- -

MIDWEEK MIRROR
English-language weekly
URL ://www.ccom.lk/midweekmirror

Page 5/News. LTTE PLEADS INNOCENCE IN APPEAL CASE IN U.S.

Sri Lanka’s Tamil Tiger rebel movement is taking the US State Dept to court
in an attempt to get it to stop calling the group “Terrorist”. One of
the attorneys handling the case for the LTTE is Ramsay Clerk, US Attorney
General from 1967 to 1969, who has pursued several high-profile human rights
and civic causes in recent years.

--- -- -

VIRAKESARI
Daily Tamil-language newspaper
Wednesday August 11, 1999

Page 1/2-c.
DEMONSTRATION IN GENEVA DEMANDING RECOGNITION OF TAMIL ASPIRATIONS
The LTTE and allied organizations staged a mass rally opposite
UN offices in Geneva on Monday which was attended by more than 9,000 people.
Floats demonstrating the Chemmani mass graves episode and Nagarkovil child
massacre led the procession. Four resolutions were passed at this rally
that included the demand to include Tigers in any discussion on the ethnic
issue, recognition of Tigers as the sole representatives of Sri Lankan Tamil
people, recognizing the Tamil homeland concept and the national independence
of Tamils.

Wendell asks:

Is the FED now a private sword suspended over humanity?

Wendell also posed a similar question a month ago or so and Randy answered
to my recollection that the Fed isn't that different to European Central
Banks who also issue money and lend money to the goverment against interest
payment. And that seems fair and reasonable except for one thing:

My question is:

Whereas the European Central Banks are owned by the public and interest paid
to them therefore go to the public through its representative the state,
does interest in the US go to the public (nation or state) or does the
interest go to the private banks that owns the Fed.?????

Where does this interest go in the US?

Arno

OK -- that problem had never occurred to me as one that might arise.
    The law of unanticipated consequences is well illustrated here, don't you
think?

  Michael

hi
european gov'ts spent by issuing hazelwood tallies; banks operated the clearing
mechanism. of course, issuing notes is exactly the same thing. they are just
"tax
credits", or "that which is necessary to pay taxes". the govt accepts back the
tallies, or the notes, or today hpm.
randy

"wendell w. solomons" wrote:

>
>      *One phrase is worth a thousand pictures.
>
> Arno quotes --
>
> >(§66) "Coöperation in time is of equal importance"
> >and
> >"The most striking means by which such a coöperation has been advanced in
> >modern times is public credit, "a draft on posterity;""
>
> >>From Friedrich List:
> >
> >The present generation is, therefore, not merely entitled to
> >throw on to future generations the capital outlay of these
> >works and fair interest on it (as long as they do not yield
> >sufficient income), but further acts unjustly towards itself and to the true
> >fundamental principles of national economy, if it takes the burden or even
> >any considerable part of it on its own shoulders. (National System, 1841,
> >p.297)
>
> Greetings!
>
> Indeed, public credit isn't neutral - it's a two-edged sword.
>
> Currency note clearing arrangements were once predominantly private,
> isn't it? But then, after WW2, you notice governments creating Central
> Banks in Europe.
>
> In that way the scope of public accountabilty in the use of the sword
> was enhanced.
>
> Is the FED now a private sword suspended over humanity?
>
> Rgds
>
> \\'
>
> -----------------------------------
> Pennies sent overseas by monetarism
> -----------------------------------
>
> TIME magazine's epitaph to President J.R. Jayewardene, the model
> user (1977) of Friedmanist reforms in Sri Lanka:
>
> "Early implemented economic reform but leaves his country
> a legacy of civil war."
>
> --- -- -
>
> MIDWEEK MIRROR
> English-language weekly
> URL ://www.ccom.lk/midweekmirror
>
> Page 5/News. LTTE PLEADS INNOCENCE IN APPEAL CASE IN U.S.
>
> Sri Lanka’s Tamil Tiger rebel movement is taking the US State Dept to court
> in an attempt to get it to stop calling the group “Terrorist”. One of
> the attorneys handling the case for the LTTE is Ramsay Clerk, US Attorney
> General from 1967 to 1969, who has pursued several high-profile human rights
> and civic causes in recent years.
>
> --- -- -
>
> VIRAKESARI
> Daily Tamil-language newspaper
> Wednesday August 11, 1999
>
> Page 1/2-c.
> DEMONSTRATION IN GENEVA DEMANDING RECOGNITION OF TAMIL ASPIRATIONS
> The LTTE and allied organizations staged a mass rally opposite
> UN offices in Geneva on Monday which was attended by more than 9,000 people.
> Floats demonstrating the Chemmani mass graves episode and Nagarkovil child
> massacre led the procession. Four resolutions were passed at this rally
> that included the demand to include Tigers in any discussion on the ethnic
> issue, recognition of Tigers as the sole representatives of Sri Lankan Tamil
> people, recognizing the Tamil homeland concept and the national independence
> of Tamils.
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> ebates.com. Earn up to 25% cash back for shopping online at 75 stores
> like Borders, CDNow and Beyond.com. Refer a friend and earn even more!
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arno
fed profits up to 6% return on equity goes back to member banks; beyond that to
the treasury.
randy

Arno Mong Daastoel wrote:

> Wendell asks:
>
> Is the FED now a private sword suspended over humanity?
>
> Wendell also posed a similar question a month ago or so and Randy answered
> to my recollection that the Fed isn't that different to European Central
> Banks who also issue money and lend money to the goverment against interest
> payment. And that seems fair and reasonable except for one thing:
>
> My question is:
>
> Whereas the European Central Banks are owned by the public and interest paid
> to them therefore go to the public through its representative the state,
> does interest in the US go to the public (nation or state) or does the
> interest go to the private banks that owns the Fed.?????
>
> Where does this interest go in the US?
>
> Arno
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> ebates.com. Earn up to 25% cash back for shopping online at 75 stores
> like Borders, CDNow and Beyond.com. Refer a friend and earn even more!
> http://clickhere.egroups.com/click/690
>
> eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/gang8
> http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications

arno

fed profits up to 6% return on equity goes back to member banks; beyond
that to
the treasury.

A thank you to Randy!

I must confess recognition of the logic "discretion is better than valor."
Someone wrote to me that I was fortunate to be able to ask questions while
being situated out in the Indian Ocean area.

The jogging you see in the streets was elevated by media to the point of fad
in the U.S. after the sputniks took off. Why did the notion of publicly
owned central banks or accountability or auditing NOT come in from the much
closer nations of Western Europe? French fries and the VW did negotiate the
Atlantic Ocean without getting waterlogged.

Have we any access beyond happy hunting grounds to learn -

(1) the volume of equity in the FED balance sheet;
(2) which dealers sit on the Board of Directors of the FED;
(3) its immense Open Market activity done arguably on behalf
     of "WE THE PEOPLE" but in practicaly done under possible control
     by an insider clique unelected even by member banks let alone by
    "WE THE PEOPLE" ?

As compared with the post-war European picture we know that the use of
talent and creativity in the U.S. has been reduced to leaving an annual
chronic Balance of Trade deficit to be covered by money invited in or
scared in from overseas.

As far as the worth of the dollar is concerned, the FED is one of several
possible participants in the rated 4 % annual drop in the value of the FED
dollar. During 10 years of a person's life, this negative rate of interest
drops the worth of the FED note (an IOU) to around 66 % of its original
value. A U.S. financial writer once declared that a dollar today is the
equivalent of grandpop's penny. Naturally, all paper (including savings in
pension funds) denominated or pegged to the dollar may also adjust downwards
(or upwards.)

BTW the secretive Swiss banks were charging 0.5 % negative interest on
current accounts to foreigners which drops the worth of a SFr deposit to 95%
in ten years' time.

rgds
\\'


Arno Mong Daastoel wrote:

> Wendell asks:
>
> Is the FED now a private sword suspended over humanity?
>
> Wendell also posed a similar question a month ago or so and Randy answered
> to my recollection that the Fed isn't that different to European Central
> Banks who also issue money and lend money to the goverment against interest
> payment. And that seems fair and reasonable except for one thing:
>
> My question is:
>
> Whereas the European Central Banks are owned by the public and interest paid
> to them therefore go to the public through its representative the state,
> does interest in the US go to the public (nation or state) or does the
> interest go to the private banks that owns the Fed.?????
>
> Where does this interest go in the US?
>
> Arno

FYI - For your information:

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From: Scott Hassan <support@egroups.com>
To: <egroups-managers@egroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, August 11, 1999 3:02 AM
Subject: [egroups-managers] eGroups.com Upgrade Notice


>
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>

Greetings!

A snippet from hunter-gatherer history is encapsulated in this item
from today's news.

              ABORIGINE LEADER WINS BATTLE OUTSIDE COURT

   When Sri Lankan aborigine chieftain Uruwarige Wanni was entering the
   Eastern region Amparai magistrate court to bear witness with open chest,
   ax balanced on his shoulder and wearing no more than a traditional loin
   cloth, Court officials barred him entry. The judge finally intervened to
   permit his witness. (DIVAINA newspaper, August 12, 1999)


The conventions of modernity include court procedure, machine-woven textile
and steel obtained through barter to replace a stone ax head, but here is
something that predates the island of Sri Lanka's hydraulic civilization
(gradients of 12 inches per mile were created.) Of course, the system of
the Veddah's predates the pharaonic system's close-relation marriage
principle I have been discussing in relation to the consolidation
of today's oligarchy.

--- -- -

I had a correspondent in NY. This lady had started working at age 14 in
the garment trade. There she merged with trade unions and took up books
which led her to a Ph.D.

She became quite a kindred spirit and shared with me poetry she created.
At one point she told me, "We are in the bowels of the monster here."

Recently I thought of the presence of mind of LBJ, when he withdrew the
non-FED silver backed dollar on the day following the assassination of JFK.
As such my intention can hardly be to put our U.S. participants on the spot
and so I encourage responses from others to these queries.

Basically, besides hear-say, do we access to documents so as to learn -

(1) the volume of equity in the FED balance sheet;
(2) which dealers sit on the Board of Directors of the FED;
(3) its immense Open Market activity done arguably on behalf
     of "WE THE PEOPLE" but in practice done under possible control
     by an insider clique unelected even by member banks let alone by
    "WE THE PEOPLE" ?

If the public finance textbook brings out a Dr. Jekyl there may be
a Mr. Hyde also lurking here.

rgds
\\'


Arno Mong Daastoel wrote:

> Wendell asks:
>
> Is the FED now a private sword suspended over humanity?
>
> Wendell also posed a similar question a month ago or so and Randy answered
> to my recollection that the Fed isn't that different to European Central
> Banks who also issue money and lend money to the goverment against interest
> payment. And that seems fair and reasonable except for one thing:
>
> My question is:
>
> Whereas the European Central Banks are owned by the public and interest paid
> to them therefore go to the public through its representative the state,
> does interest in the US go to the public (nation or state) or does the
> interest go to the private banks that owns the Fed.?????
>
> Where does this interest go in the US?
>
> Arno

From Geoffrey to Gang

Today's Financial Times has a main article by John Plender, mainly on flow of
funds, which is worth reading. It draws a lot on recent articles by Tim
Congdon and Brian Reading.

It includes a rumour that a big institution may be in trouble through unwise
interest rate swaps. I think it is crazy that banks are allowed to take
positions in such markets.

Plender discusses, among other things, the scenario of a fall in the dollar,
and consequent increased demand on American producers at a time when labour
supply is tight. He does not take into consideration that a lot of labour is
used in the US to distribute the 30 billion of goods imported each month and
paid for with borrowed money. Local production of substitute goods might
require less labour consuming supply lines.

Sadly Plender assumes that demand induced inflation would have to be cured by
higher interest rates! Can no-one convince these commentators that high
interest rates draw in money and imports, and raise the cost of home
production. What can we do to get them to read Tooke in preference to J
Horsley Palmer? Keynes said that politicians are the slaves of dead
economists. Economists in turn are the slaves of a long dead governor of the
Bank of England.

Personal matters. The gland enlargement I experienced has now been declared
non-dangerous. The blood tests all gave normal readings. Toxo-plasmosis is a
possibility, but that is incurable, and does not normally do anything nasty
to those who are fit. The alternative possibility is a lurking virus. I was
declared a very young 70 year-old.

Today's batch of 19 e-mails is a rich intellectual feast that will take some
digesting. I shall take my time over it.

For Michael: I was not complaining about the 6 hours. They were well spent.

Geoffrey

Arno, straight science fiction is better. There are many parallel universe
stories that are fun. But all these are about the SAME parallel universe --
and they take an entire book for what really should be a 12-page story, like
Philip Dick writes.
    You've even left off The Secret of Jekyll Island, one of the best of this
group.

  Michael

----- Original Message -----

From: Arno Mong Daastoel

To: gang8e

Cc: Thorbjørn Jerlerup ; Robert W. Zimmerer ; Jonathan Larson

Sent: Friday, August 13, 1999 8:43 AM

Subject: [gang8] the FED and international Money

This is about a fascinating field of research: the FED and international Money

 

Only relatively recently - past year mainly - has there been any interest in the danger that the Euro would pose to the dollar. And now the Japanese are starting to get interested in this field preparing the first step by removing two digits from the Yen's nominal value.

 

According to Business Week a year ago, the US FED owes $ 5 trillions abroad due to export of greenbacks (= "valueless" paper) and import of goods.

According to the Norwegian Industrial Daily (Dagens Næringsliv) a few days ago the US earns $ 20 billions yearly on this export and 2/3 rds of the greenbacks are now abroad. A setback for the greenback would have enormous consequences for the issuers - and for the US and global economy of course.

 

With this in mind, it should not be a wild guess that the interests who earn money on this activity also has an interest in regulating this global business in a "positive" direction, preventing competitors from sitting down at this bountiful table, like the EU or Japan.

 

More explicit: Would it not be likely that the interests behind the FED involve themselves in geopolitics?

 

I have collected a few books on the FED (serious or not) and here are the title in case any of you might be interested:

 

Eustace Mullins: The Secrets of the Federal Reserve, Bankers research Institute, Staunton VA, 1983, reprint 1984

 

Wickliffe B. Vennard Sr.: The Federal Reserve Hoax, The Age of Deception, (Formerly: The Federal Reserve Corporation)Omni Publication, Hawthorne CA, 1973

 

Theodore R.Thoren & Richard F.Warner: The Truth in Money Book, Truth in Money Inc. Chagrin Falls, Ohio, 1980 reprints 1982, 1983, 1984,

 

- and here some interesting books by Anthony C.Sutton related to the FED:

 

Wall Street and the Rise of Hitler, Bloomfield Books, Sudbury, Suffolk, UK, 1976

Wall Street and the Bolshevik Revolution, Arlington House, New Rochelle, NY, 1981

 (claiming among other things, Michael, that Trotsky was a German)

 

and hre is a book that Bob Zimmerer recommended that also relates to the FED:

David T.Babzelon: The Paper Economy,  Randon House, NY, 1959, reprints 1952, 1953

 

 

Vennlig hilsen!

 

Arno

 

 

---

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Sorry I missed that one, but here is another one:
E.C.Knuth: The Empire of "The City", The Jekyll / Hyde Nature of the British
Government, 1983.
(on Pan-Slavism, Pan-Germanism, Pan-Americanism etc.)

Arno

----- Original Message -----
From: <Hudsonmi@...>
To: <gang8@egroups.com>
Sent: Friday, August 13, 1999 2:57 PM
Subject: [gang8] Re: the FED and international Money


> Arno, straight science fiction is better. There are many parallel universe
> stories that are fun. But all these are about the SAME parallel
universe --
> and they take an entire book for what really should be a 12-page story,
like
> Philip Dick writes.
>    You've even left off The Secret of Jekyll Island, one of the best of
this
> group.
>
>  Michael
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> GET WHAT YOU DESERVE! A NextCard Platinum VISA: DOUBLE Rewards points,
> NO annual fee & rates as low as 9.9% FIXED APR. Apply online today!
> http://clickhere.egroups.com/click/606
>
>
> eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/gang8
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>
>
>
>
>

These look like they all have PIECES that are interesting, and stray facts.
It's the overall PERSPECTIVE that's so hard for people to get, unless they've
actually worked in banking and know bankers and their mentality.
   I think Geoffrey and I have a common view here.
     I know that conspiracy theories put order in an otherwise unordered and
intellectually unwieldy universe. But that's life.
   Michael

arno
i don't have time to read your entire post, but did look at first
paragraph. the euro cannot possibly endanger the dollar. given the
tremendous leverage of the dollar around the globe and given the "short
sqeeze" on the dollar due to us govt surpluses, it will be in high
demand.
i'm off to kansas, which just banned evolution from the schools.
randy

Greetings!

That was a useful post from Arno. While we decide who's to bell the cat on
the structure of the FED, let us go on.

You find that this sort of pattern begins to emerge ...

From the Pentateuch we know that giving something was already recognized as
a means of becoming "the head" while making the other person "the tail." We
could be speaking of a principle known by 1500 BC, of CREATING
INDEBTEDNESS. Much older sources exist, but this old text is important in
that a non-specialist can have access to it in almost any town of the world.

   Deut 28:43-44 The stranger that is within thee shall get up above thee very
   high; and thou shalt come down very low. He shall lend to thee, and thou
   shalt not lend to him: he shall be the head, and thou shalt be the tail.

Its great relevancy for our times.

Think of the map of hundreds of nations, which emerged after WW2. FDR knew
the real world and therefore the power of money wielders to embarass an
administration. Through the Atlantic Charter, FDR was breaking out by exacting
the price of liberation of the colonies. The city of London had chanced to
need support from American industry and army.

We are aware of the justification of FDR as aiming to help U.S.
manufacturing expand to new markets. Be that as it may, export promotion
could have been attended to with less noise and trauma.

How? By simply reducing the Atlantic Charter commitment to altering Imperial
customs tariffs in India and other colonies by post-war gazette to give
U.S. manufactures too a zero duty status (through which London exercised a
trading monopoly.)

Such a quid-pro-quo deal would have required no more than printing out a
page in the British government gazette instead of starting the
hook-line-and-sinker loss of boundary markers, roads, railways, water supply
systems  -- all set up under English, Irish and Scottish managers.

--- -- -

FDR forced the hook-line-and-sinker approach for it was - in his mind - now
or never. If you manage to speak with the inner soul of a U.S. economist,
you may find history repeating itself. FDR had understood and is hardly alone
in having pangs of conscience for children.

It was the same orbit of wealth vs. indebtedness that JFK addressed in 1963
when he released the silver-backed dollar to bypass the FED's role in the
creation of 'head' and 'tail.' It seems that these Presidents had joined
Lincoln. Together, these three seem to have comprehended and stood up for
the legacy of the Pilgrim Fathers and that of 1776 George Washington for
their generation -- and for the world.

--- -- -

FDR succeeded in disrupting the pre-WW2 captive market in the colonies of
the London spice and gold merchants who, unfortunately for the graphs of
economic statistician Friedman, were not Free Trade participants. So
wherever UNILEVER has not installed plant and machinery, say in Latvia or
Estonia, importers can now freely import tea packetted in India or Sri
Lanka. Latvia and Estonia can in turn sell products without tariff
discrimination in India and Sri Lanka.

However, the Empire struck back at FDR by placing an accent on using
finances -- an accent on debt-creation cobweb using paper. Because the
Bank of England came to be nationalized, NY would have to serve as the
pirate station.

Outside London it developed an additional center in NY. In striking back it
delinked the dollar from gold because it would be useful in an unbridled
stretching of this cobweb from the privateering station -- the FED was still
private.

Yet, however, some fire fighting remained to be done. That was to end the
1917 Leninist experiment performed on the Tsar who would not respond to
money inducement ... he was the richest on earth (with 15,000 servants in
his numerous valuables-laden palaces.)

Out with us in 1996-1997, once the USSR was seen to be crumbling, Korea,
Japan and ASEAN immediately could be allocated the position of 'tail.' This
explains the sudden outbreak of currency raids, which contributed to wiping
out the Peace Dividend.

In 1999, it also explains the selective destruction of economic targets - an
unusual 70 day barbarism for American and European soldiers - on grounds of
removing Milosevic.

   Already unpopular, Milosevic would have fallen with a score State
Department
   refresher courses in journalism for Yugoslav reporters and a similar number
   of Open Society grants to electoral democracy activists. The formulas here
   are simply classic; any visitor from Washington would discuss them in the
   course of conversation.

So an exodus now looms ahead for Europe with economic refugees from Bosnia,
Croatia, Macedonia, Montenegro and Serbia to act for nationalist parties as
sand in the gears of the European Union. European money markets and Central
Banks are thus already prised open under humanitarian cover for subversion
and the panic flight of savings. Europe is also readied to be the 'tail.'

We can hardly speak of pharaonic leverage if the population of the world is
6 billion. By this same token, this oligarchy may be so small and heavily
inbred that a schoolchild would remember the names once they are exposed.

Since the alternative ideas are rich enough, the only factor in favor of the
pharaonic caste covering up its monstrous historic crimes and blunders is
the relative dispersion and diversity of its victims.

The young Internet -- a serendipity from Serendip-based Arthur C. Clarke --
is putting people in touch.

DON'T DROP ME YET. The key question is: "How and on what should people unite
and focus through the Internet?"

Rgds
\\'

My service as IMF Resident Representative in the Khmer Republic in 1971-72
and again in South Viet-Nam in 1973-75, where important U.S. interests were
at stake, left me with a deeply-ingrained mistrust of the capacity of
Washington officials (a) to think long-term, (b) to think strategically,
and, absent (a) and (b), (c) to be guided in their daily operations by
something other than short-term expediency.

Thus, the scuttling of the Bretton Woods System by the U.S. in the early
1970s was the expedient thing to do, as was the "recycling" of OPEC
surpluses through the IMF in the mid-1970s, which recast the IMF's role from
overseer to bit-playing lender-of-last-resort in the international monetary
system.

Obviously, Nixon and Connally must have been pressured by both financial and
non-financial interests in the U.S. to scuttle the Bretton Woods System
rather than stem the pressure on the U.S. balance of payments by the
combination of domestic monetary and fiscal policies which the U.S., acting
through the IMF, regards as wholly appropriate for other IMF members in weak
balance of payments position.

At every turn in the road between the early 1970s and 1999, the U.S. and
other principal IMF members have chosen the path of least resistance insofar
as conflicting pressure groups are concerned.  The fact that the outcome
LOOKS like a conspiracy organized by financial interests merely reaffirms
that MONEY TALKS.

Gunnar


----- Original Message -----
From: <Hudsonmi@...>
To: <gang8@egroups.com>
Sent: Friday, August 13, 1999 4:54 PM
Subject: [gang8] Re: the FED and international Money


> These look like they all have PIECES that are interesting, and stray
facts.
> It's the overall PERSPECTIVE that's so hard for people to get, unless
they've
> actually worked in banking and know bankers and their mentality.
>   I think Geoffrey and I have a common view here.
>     I know that conspiracy theories put order in an otherwise unordered
and
> intellectually unwieldy universe. But that's life.
>   Michael
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Click here for 4 FREE TRIAL ISSUES of Sports Illustrated!  If you're
> satisfied, your subscription will continue at the guaranteed lowest rate
> of $.75 an issue for 52 issues! http://clickhere.egroups.com/click/678
>
>
> eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/gang8
> http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications
>
>
>
>
>

Greetings!

From Mike:

>These look like they all have PIECES that are interesting, and stray facts.
>It's the overall PERSPECTIVE that's so hard for people to get, unless
they've
>actually worked in banking and know bankers and their mentality.

There's a point on mentality here worth looking at.

The common or garden bank likes to see clients keping the interest
stream coming in. For the pawnbroking business I have brought out
the two-sideness: that the pawnbroker only accepts pledges that he
intends resale at a profit and so, therefore, the solvency or
destitution of the client takes second place.

Singapore is special in that it reformed to a public auction where
the pawnbroker must return to the client the proceeds of sale minus
interest. However, in general there's a difference in the bank which
arose from traditions in pawnbroking.

>  I think Geoffrey and I have a common view here.
>  I know that conspiracy theories put order in an otherwise unordered and
>intellectually unwieldy universe. But that's life.

There are realities involved. I do respect wishes for good health
and longevity; and I must reciprocate (see Belize below.)

Yet, there's logic involved. This position leads on to debunk the need
for the Magna Carta, Constitutions, checks and balances. I mean, could
paychecks to academe close down the teaching on checks and balances?

The rich and powerful by Nature are 1st Class citizens who do not conspire?

What was life, before Magna Carta?

Are folks all over quite accommodating to letting corporate sycophants
pass through the gate by merely invoking the "Noble Savage?"

Best

\\'

N.B.

Think you are safe? Just received this from Belize express

Subject: Re: City of Gold
To: Peter Singfield <snkm@...>
cc: solomons@...

On your stuff Peter.

Did you know the Remote Viewing project went black in the late seventies
again, over at Los Alamos.  They have it so good now, that they can
project themselves anywhere and view and hear what is going on in the
Kremlin.

   Try these sites.

http://www.mk.net/~mcf/lammer1.htm#Terrestrial

http://www.anw.com/RK/Bob_Dean.htm

Greetings!

After reading a post of mine, a U.S. women's group put me on their
list ...

These women were subject to the advertising of an escapism. They were
persuaded into having their bodies padded with silicone to associate with
the artificial demi-gods created for movies. Later, the body implants
started breaking up inside. Silicone is spreading through endocrine and
other systems and Dow-Corning cannot face compensation charges from
thousands of women. Instead, a small group of doctors, lawyers and PR men
are employed to suppress the sick women.

I am dealing with the compacting and stratification of consciousness whereby
something dangerous can be sold for money to the unsuspecting U.S. citizen.

I touched on Mike's rejection of conspiracy. I know such a rejection for it
is routine in U.S. academe. It passes muster there because the true history
of the Magna Carta, the Mayflower Compact and the Founding Fathers has been
denied to consciousness and a fake history plunged in like the silicone
implant in women.

The largest epicenters of this problem-creating fake history are movie and
other mass media outfits. At a higher level of education, on U.S. campus, a
Noble Savage implant is inserted by savants such as Ayn Rand and Milton
Friedman.

Noticing that the implant seemed to look like something from a recent and
artificial volcano, Mike quite appropriately began a search for real
terrain. His survey of history has indeed brought up landmarks which would
be useful in plotting out an alternative path in this Titanic-like situation.

We are concerned. There is a blind orgy on the bridge (where for instance
Monika Lewinsky was being titillated with an infusion of tobacco in her body
fluid during the business day.)

What does Randy write in this situation of the Euro and the dollar?

>the euro cannot possibly endanger the dollar. given the
>tremendous leverage of the dollar around the globe and given the "short
>sqeeze" on the dollar due to us govt surpluses, it will be in high
>demand.

I know Randy is heavily preoccupied. Yet, let us work on even if Randy
can only fit in a glittering generality on our topic.

(1) Is it the shop-floor productivity of a 270 million nation that provides
a competitive edge vis-a-vis 400 million population Europe -- or is there
something else involved?

(2) If there was any international money before WW2, we know that the Pound
Sterling performed that function. Any ascendency of the Pound came through
(a) preaching Free Trade to destroy any competitor and (b) practicing a
monopoly, in the first instance through creating a colonial monopoly on
produce that Europe had traditionally used such as Cinnamon in Sri Lanka.

Through understanding the stunt, Lincoln's generation rejected Free Trade
and so created a GNP twice the size of Britain's in 50 years time.

(3) Now we know that in a similar 50 year period after WW2, the dollar
took over from the Pound.

What is the monopoly that was applied to achieve the ascendency of the
dollar if it was not the manufacturing of products like VW, VOLVO, SONY,
CASIO, HYUNDAI, GOLDSTAR?

Since the FED remains a private dealer network and the odd man out,
perhaps it is the heart of it all?

--- -- -

Arno has indicated that a popularizing of the dollar as paper currency
outside the nation-state geographical territory of the U.S.A. may be
contributing. We also know that in the case of the Pound Sterling deployment
did not go as far as the dollar (since a second, more hands-on control was
exercised through the colonial monopoly on producers of goods Europe needed
every day.)

A recent move in the popularizing of the 19th Century design dollar bill was
a face lift for the former USSR to keep the geographically nearer, modern
and safer German Central Bank's Deutsche Mark from entering the vacuum of
the ruble in Moscow which Harvard's monetarist wiz Jeffrey Sachs hobbled in
5 years time. Developments in modern offset printing have made counterfeiting
the dollar easier.

Taking these causes and effects, even Randy's two sentence generalities
do not disagree but quite endorse and support the hypothesis of a recent
monopoly formed around the dollar.

Of the future, I have previously pointed to currency raids designed to
destabilize other markets and currencies and also to missiles applied
to vindicate the geoplanners expectation for the continued hegemony of
the dollar (which Randy articulates.)

So, yes, the private dealer FED seems quite essential to the piece. If
you are distant from control of the issue of the FED dollar, whether you
are American or otherwise, then productivity is your problem. To uncompress
history and look at it reeks of the artifices that the cobra and falcon
priesthood of pharaoh used on slaves (only a bird of the air remains in
the insignia used today.)

This may now seem digression for our theme but Gunnar's comments serve as
an alert:

  My service as IMF Resident Representative in the Khmer Republic in 1971-72
  and again in South Viet-Nam in 1973-75, where important U.S. interests were
  at stake, left me with a deeply-ingrained mistrust of the capacity of
  Washington officials (a) to think long-term, (b) to think strategically,
  and, absent (a) and (b), (c) to be guided in their daily operations by
  something other than short-term expediency.

These geoplanners suffer the results of the same artificial, mercenary,
compressed consciousness. "Have gun will travel."

--- -- -

Look around at where they have got us today.

As a counterweight to the popular Primakov (born Finklestein) as future
leader in Russia, Dagestan is rapidly being turned into a cleavage plate
(70  or so nationalities) with Afghanistan and Kosovan commanders in the
field.

Dagestan serves the reform clique's latest Russian PM designate for his
credentials will be registered in the Presidential stakes through his
becoming a St George the Dragon Slayer by the uprising being unexpectedly
crushed. To slay the dragon for the elections he will employ the Albright
and Cohen model, a blitz as in Yugoslavia.

Meanwhile, Taiwan is being used to irk China to the accompaniment of saber
rattling by a U.S. naval chief. However, Suharto's Indonesia has started to
destabilize unexpectedly which threatens Japan's route to oil and Australia's
small population statistics.

Russia, China, Indonesia. Australia's and Japan's future. The aftermath of
Yugoslavia in Europe. These are supplementary signs that the geopols in an
early and premature triumphalist orgy, have taken on a stable of cleavages
more exhausting than they are equipped to fondle alone.

rgds
\\'


From: "Janet M Eaton" <jeaton@...>
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 22:51:08 +0000
Subject: UN Team Finds Contamination at Sites of NATO Bomb Attacks

http://www.flora.org/flora.mai-not/13031

Boston Globe,  August 6,  article
"UN team finds contamination at sites of NATO bomb attacks"
By Joe Lauria, Globe Correspondent.

[...]

Dear All:

The following news release from the Boston Globe, Aug 6th,  reports
on the second phase of the investigation  which relates to the
bombing effects on the River Danube and on health in the region.

In contrast to the first UN Balkan Team report this second report
seems to articulate more serious environmental and health
consequences.

[...]

The ... news item also reports that the team will study the
environmental and health effects of the depleted uranium [DU] shells
left over from NATO attacks. Haavisto said he has contacted NATO,
the International Atomic Energy Agency, the Yugoslav government, and
the World Health Organization for information about these shells.

All the best,
Janet Eaton

--- -- -

UN team finds contamination at sites of NATO bomb attacks
Boston Globe,
August 6, 1999

                   By Joe Lauria, Globe Correspondent, 08/06/99

                   UNITED NATIONS - NATO's bombing of Yugoslav
                   industrial sites has contaminated the river
                   Danube and ground water in parts of
                   Serbia and Kosovo, posing a health hazard for
                   ''several years,'' the head of a UN environmental
                   team said yesterday.

                  ''We have found that on many of these targeted sites
                   there are serious environmental consequences and
                   probably also serious health consequences,'' said
                   Pekka Haavisto, a former Finnish environmental
                   minister, who heads the UN Environmental
                   Program/Habitat Balkans Task Force.

                   Haavisto said his team has determined that reports
                   of workers at a chemical factory in Pancevo dumping
                   toxics into the Danube ahead of NATO attacks were
                   false.

                   ''The workers denied this and our observations
                   showed that the area where the chemicals leaked into
                   the Danube had been bombed,'' Haavisto said in an
                   interview.

                   The 12-member UN team returned this week from a
                   10-day mission to targeted industrial sites in
                   Serbia and Kosovo, and will return for two more
                   weeks at the end of the month. The team will present
                   its findings in a report to UN Secretary General
                   Kofi Annan at the end of September.

                   [...]

                   ''The overall estimation is that there are certain
                   environmental and human health risks if immediate
                   action is not taken,'' Haavisto said. He noted that
                   if the cleanup were to begin tomorrow it would take
                   ''several years'' to complete.

                   In a visit to Washington this week, Haavisto
                   appeared uncomfortable talking about the response
                   State Department officials gave to his request that
                   the United States lift its ban on reconstruction aid
                   to Yugoslavia to help pay for an environmental
                   cleanup.

                   President Clinton has said Belgrade will not get
                   ''one red cent'' until Yugoslav President Slobodan
                   Milosevic is removed from office. The United States
                   will offer aid if the need is determined to be
                   humanitarian.

                   But it may prove difficult to judge whether aid to
                   protect Yugoslav workers already rebuilding
                   contaminated industrial sites could be considered
                   humanitarian.

                   [...]

No,no, Wendell. I said that BANKS didn't conspire. I didn't say that
CORPORATIONs dont, esp. the real estate industry which conspires for insider
deals, the minerals industry, the arms corporations, etc. There is a
difference between the financial sector and the rest of the economy -- a
different mentality, as the French say.
     Kissinger conspires. But does he conspire by himself? Is he not like a
fat little high-school boy thinking up vengeful plots? The hard thing is to
bring other people into a small-minded conspiratorial world, and keep them
there. Conspirers tend to be loners -- that is part of what saves the world
from conspiracy. And they are inherently asocial, which also blunts their
implementation.
   Michael

Hi All!


  Import duties should be levied to protect and gradually to increase the
  nation's productive power. With this in mind the rates of duties levied
  under a tariff should be adapted to the needs of a particular
  country.(List, 1837, p.36)


Again, two sentences.

In his day Lincoln decided to educate the kid, not put him out to
work the streets.

Not kinky, this needs no futher comment.

--- -- -

BTW have you noticed Lawrence Summers reforming to recognise vanished
"people" through institutionalism?

Rgds
\\'

Greetings!

Here's a posting from USENET where
our topic is being discussed at sci.econ,
alt.politics.economics. Anyone with full
web access can follow the thread via
http:/www/deja.com and other USENET
readers  (I only have email here.)

Yet, first I share Californian compliments
I received from the coordinator of the
silicone-hoaxed group.

Here's Ilena Rosenthal to whom I sent my
last gasp of a text because I had mentioned
their group.

rgds
\\'

                 \\\

Date: Sat, 14 Aug 1999 14:14:03 -0700
Re: the FED and international Money

How Great!

thanks wendell!

love your writing style,
your info, and your passion

from the other side of the world

california hugs from ilena


                 \\\


Newsgroups:
alt.politics.economics,sci.econ,misc.consumers.frugal-living,misc.survivalism
Subject: Re: Money: Understanding the basics
References: <rqrt4it5kur37@...>
<l9Ar3.9914$W11.183357@...>
<rqtvikcvkur93@...> <37AE4EF5.8313920A@...>
<7p1pl3$ka@...>
Lines: 791
Date: Sat, 14 Aug 1999 07:24:03 GMT

Salisar wrote:
>
> Steve wrote in message <37AE4EF5.8313920A@...>...
> >If the books you've listed contain the same dribble as your posts - I'll
> >pass!!
> >
> >By the way - you keep referring to dollar being a unit of weight.
> >Weight can be defined as "importance".  So one dollar = one importance.
> >Does that solve your problem? NO.  You seem to think there should be
> >some tangible constant that represents a dollar.  You'll just have to
> >live with the fact that the dollar, as all currencies, are variables.
> >
>
> Well, you are right.  We are forced to live with it, but that does not mean
> it is correct or proper.  You are neglecting to ask yourself the most
> important question about fiat money, or as you so quaintly put it "variable"
> money, is "who benefits the most from such a system?"  The temptingly glib
> response is to simply parrot, "society benefits" .... but does it?
>
> Money created out of thin air is like anything else where you seem to get
> something for nothing.  It is worth exactly what you pay for it, utlimately
> . . . nothing.  When you run the printing press, YOU are the one who
> benefits from new influxes of money . . . you and those who you favor.  A
> great web site with a remarkable speech by Louis T. MacFadden, who was a
> member of the House of Representatives during the 30's, is a remarkable
> exposition into the evils fiat money and the damage it can do to a society.
> You can find his speech, which is exracted from the Congressional Record at
> : http://www.oregontrail.net/~mmontagne/mcfadden.html.
>
> Richard W. Bates
> God save me from people who want to save me!
> http://www.concentric.net/~salisar

Why we deal with variables at all is a sign of some degree
of mental illness -- a psychosis, in believing that Money, a
pure fantasy, is real.

Is it not significant, that Money, as a medium of exchange
was meant to act as a surrogate for something that has been
remarkably constant in value down through the ages -- the
quantity of Food needed by any human being, of any level of
society, just for a literal "living?"  Though the necessity
of Food (along with the lesser thought of, Air and Water)
has never varied in value per unit of Food, as Food became
abundant enough to terminate the Agrarian era a century or
so ago, and eliminate forever the concept of "exchange"
(meaning, who was NOT to access then too scarce Food) the
Economic fraternity managed to get our natural obsession
with Food, to a totally illogical obsession with Money, that
is firstly, a phantom, and secondly, subject to as much
variation in value as any human mind can assign to it.

Following below is a paper that includes MacFadden's
comments plus many more comments of prominent people about
the Federal Reserve, an atrocity of logic that was foisted
upon us by an evil bunch of law makers in 1913, who qualify
as traitors against the welfare of the American people, and
the entire world.

HB
>
> >Ilya wrote:
> >>
> >> In sci.econ Peter Nelson <plnelson@...> wrote:
> >>
> >> > So what?   What event in your childhood or upbringing gave you
> >> > this psychological need for absolutes?    Are you also a religious
> >> > fundamentalist?   Are you one of those people who thinks of quantum
> >> > physics as "Jewish science" because you can't deal with uncertainty
> >> > and probability?
> >>
> >> > NOTHING used for money, not even gold, represents an absolute.
> >> > ALL money is nothing more than a unit of exchange for other goods
> >> > and services and the amount of goods and services it can be exchanged
> >> > for changes daily.     This is true whether you are talking about
> dollar
> >> > bills or Krugerrands!
> >>
> >> > The WEIGHT of the gold is irrelevant to its use as money!   All that
> >> > matters is how much good and services it can be exchanged for.
> >> > Only an idiot measures his gold in ounces.   The correct measure is
> >> > how much bread and oil and computing power and automobile
> >> > it will buy.
> >>
> >> > I happen to own both and it is a fact that my dollars buy me a lot more
> >> > gasoline than they did a few years ago and my gold buys me less.
> >> > I don't have a problem with this because I don't have some kind of
> >> > psychological need for absolutes and perfect consistency that you
> >> > seem to have.   You don't need an economist, you need a shrink.
> >>
> >> The best I can tell you, read the books I listed and gain a modicum of
> >> knowledge on this subject before engaging in the discussion.
> >>
==========================================================================

"America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system,
but too early to shoot the bastards.  On the road to tyranny, we've gone so
far that polite political action is about as useless as a miniskirt in a
convent."
                     - Claire Wolfe, 101 Things To Do 'Til The Revolution

===========================================================================

< snip - other than the one above, the quotes are familiar to gang8 >