I've been a member of Index-L for a couple of years now. I'm a newbie
just starting my indexing business. I just wanted to make a couple of
comments regarding the threads on the old and new Index-L's.

1) Someone made the comment that even though the old Index-L has over
1100 members probably only 50 post regularly. While that is true, it
doesn't mean that there aren't many more in the remaining group that
are "inactive". I've posted 2-3 times in the 2 years I've been
onboard, but get a lot of value from reading it daily. I consider
myself "active" even though I just lurk.
2) I really have no preference to a new Index-L on Yahoo vs. the old.
I joined the new one, because I didn't want to miss any valuable info
that may appear here. There are advantages and disadvantages to both.
3) If we are going to continue with this new group, I suggest the
name be changed from Index-L. It's too confusing to have 2 named
Index-L. Does anyone know what the "L" stands for anyway?

Just my 2 cents.

--- "Bobbi Swanson" <bobbiswanson@c...> wrote:
>
> Because there is so much more work involved (I have learned a lot
about
> embedded indexes), I assume the fee for doing this would also be
higher to
> compensate for all of the coding.  Is embedded indexing used a lot,
or is it
> not due to the higher fees (than BOB indexing)?

Bobbi,
Sorry for the delayed response. I just joined this discussion group
and am catching up on postings.

I do quite a lot of embedded indexing (using FrameMaker) for about 3-
4 different clients per year (maybe 10-15 books per year). I charge
significantly more on a per-page basis because it takes me about 1
1/2 times as long to create an index. (As others have mentioned,
editing functions are rudimentary, even with add-on utilities such as
emDEX and IXgen). I've found that my pricing averages about 50%
higher because of that.

In spite of the drawbacks with embedded indexing, I'm one of those
who absolutely love it! I guess it's because of the satisfaction I
get in placing the words right where they belong (no misnumbered page
locators possible here).
Hope this helps.
Lucie Haskins

In a message dated 1/31/2004 12:33:44 PM Eastern Standard Time,
racric@... writes:

> Does everyone think it would be better if I don't make this list
> available in the yahoo directory? In some ways that would be
> best, in other ways, it could be limiting. I guess the old index-l
> isn't a public group, and people find it by going to the ASI website
> or by word of mouth, so maybe this one shouldn't be public.

I would personally avoid it. I don't have the IndexCafe in the directory. It
reduces the amount of spam broadcast to members if the
average-person-who's-browsing-the-directory-for-spamming doesn't know about it.

Anyone who's serious about indexing will find it, the same way they find ASI,
Index-L, IndexCafe, and more.

Just my thoughts on it.

Dawn




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi all,

wouldn't you know it, my server folded under the weight of that
worm. I can send but I'm not receiving.

Charles, any suggestions you have are welcome. When I finish
up my current project due Monday I'll work on the list.

Does everyone think it would be better if I don't make this list
available in the yahoo directory? In some ways that would be
best, in other ways, it could be limiting. I guess the old index-l
isn't a public group, and people find it by going to the ASI website
or by word of mouth, so maybe this one shouldn't be public.

Please send opinions to the list. I can read and reply at the
website but I'm not receiving any personal mail at all. They say it
could be late today or tomorrow before they can clear things up.

Rae

Rae,

I don't know if you realize it, but the profiles in the database are not
limited to just members of this group.  If you click on your entry as owner
for example and then on search by member name, you get everyone who belongs
to any Yahoo group.  This I think does open more of a door to junk mail even
when one set's preferences in Yahoo to be more restrictive.  By the nature
of the way you formed the group (as an Open rather than Private), I think
the potential for address culling is increased.

Maybe it has to be this way.  I know that when I started
IndexersUnlimited.org, I made it a private group where membership had to be
approved because we deliberately were limiting membership to increase
marketing options.  There has never been a problem with members getting
unsolicited emails from this group; however even there some members do use
specific different emails to prevent this from happening.

In the kind of directory you want to create, it will be more useful to
members if fuller information is given, I admit.  However, this is also the
way that, for example, junk fax mailers pick up fax numbers.  This is one
reason I seldom put my fax number online anymore.

Anyway, this is all to explain why I chose not to list myself in the
director, although I am completely supportive of your efforts regarding
establishment of the list.

BTW, I've gotten one very unhappy email offlist from someone who ordinarily
likes whatever I say.

Charles

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Rae [mailto:racric@...]
> Sent: Saturday, January 31, 2004 7:02 AM
> To: indexl@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [indexl] new table
>
> I made a table in the Tables section as a contact list. I
> made fields for contact info, type of indexing you do, and
> specialties, interests. Please add your info, and let me know
> if you have any trouble using the feature.
>
> Rae
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
> To visit your group on the web, go to:
>  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/indexl/
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>  indexl-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
>  http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>

Sorry, it's the database section, not "tables" section.

R

I made a table in the Tables section as a contact list. I made fields
for contact info, type of indexing you do, and specialties,
interests. Please add your info, and let me know if you have any
trouble using the feature.

Rae

--- In indexl@yahoogroups.com, indexl@yahoogroups.com wrote:
>
> Enter your vote today!  A new poll has been created for the
> indexl group:

I created a poll. Love the polling feature of YahooGroups, but I
promise not to overdo it--too much.

I have TURNED OFF VOTER IDENTITY. So, when you vote, your privacy
will be respected and no one will know how you voted.

Enter your vote today!  A new poll has been created for the
indexl group:

Do you read the book BEFORE you start
marking, inputting, etc.?

   o I READ the book from start to finish before I start anything.
   o I SKIM the book from start to finish before starting anything.
   o I READ one chapter at a time, as I go.
   o I SKIM one chapter at a time, as I go.
   o I focus only on the page at hand, neither skimming nor reading the chapter
or book ahead of time, before I start.
   o IT depends on the book, and my knowledge of it.
   o Other method not mentioned.


To vote, please visit the following web page:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/indexl/surveys?id=415484

Note: Please do not reply to this message. Poll votes are
not collected via email. To vote, you must go to the Yahoo! Groups
web site listed above.

Thanks!

and also I was just thinking, I do enjoy it occasionally as a change
of pace because I find that I have to think about things a little
differently. For some reason that seems like a bit of a break somehow.

R

>It sounds to me that embedded indexing is something I plan to not pursue!
>Thanks for the information,  now when the subject is the current thread, I
>at least know what is being referred to!  Thank you so much

Well, don't rule it out altogether. Some folks  do only embedded
indexing and love it.

Rae
--
Rachel Rice
Freelance indexing and editing
Brookline, Vermont USA
http://www.sevencatday.com

It sounds to me that embedded indexing is something I plan to not pursue!
Thanks for the information,  now when the subject is the current thread, I
at least know what is being referred to!  Thank you so much
Bobbi
----- Original Message -----
From: <indexlady@...>
To: <indexl@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, January 30, 2004 5:34 PM
Subject: Re: [indexl] RE: [index-l] Re: new group


> In a message dated 1/30/2004 8:27:19 PM Eastern Standard Time,
> bobbiswanson@... writes:
>
> > I asked earlier about fees for embedded index
>
> I've only talked to 2 publishers regarding embedded indexing, and I didn't
> pursue it because it paid less than my other clients, even though more
work is
> involved. I don't remember who the clients were, but I was rather
surprised.
>
> Dawn
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
> To visit your group on the web, go to:
>  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/indexl/
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>  indexl-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
>  http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

Before everyone uses the total Index-L 50 messages per day (or fills up
Rae's inbox with offlist flames as is apparently happening), I would just
like to remind people that this (at least so far) is a free country.  Anyone
has a right to start any kind of group they want on places like Yahoo.  No
one on Index-L is being required to join IndexL.  No one is being asked to
leave Index-L.  However, if this subject degenerates into another flame war
on Index-L it would certainly seem to me to support the need for a different
group.

No one has a right to criticize someone else for forming an interest group
even if it may appeal to some of the same members of an existing group. If a
new group fills a need, then it works.  If it doesn't it will die on its
own--and Rae has already pointed that out.

If you don't like the idea, then why not just ignore it?

Charles R. Anderson
P.O. Box 15642
Seattle, WA 98115-0642
(206) 527-5446

mailto:anderson@...
http://www.the-indexer.com
*****
https://contribute.johnkerry.com/index.html?source_code=00011414
-----------------------------------------------------------

>
>
>Well, geeze, and here I thought you'd given up your Master of the Universe
>title....

I did, but apparently not all my subjects received the memo. . .

R
--
Rachel Rice
Freelance indexing and editing
Brookline, Vermont USA
http://www.sevencatday.com

I do charge more for embedded indexing. It takes about 1 and a half
times as long to do them, mainly because you can't see the index
growing in front of you, and because there are no typing shortcuts.

I actually avoid it altogether if I can. I just have one client at
the moment, and they only pay about 50cents more per page, but if
anyone else comes along and asks, I'm going to require a buck a page
more than whatever I would have charged for Cindex index.

R

In a message dated 1/30/2004 8:27:19 PM Eastern Standard Time,
bobbiswanson@... writes:

> I asked earlier about fees for embedded index

I've only talked to 2 publishers regarding embedded indexing, and I didn't
pursue it because it paid less than my other clients, even though more work is
involved. I don't remember who the clients were, but I was rather surprised.

Dawn



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

In a message dated 1/30/2004 7:45:48 PM Eastern Standard Time,
racric@... writes:

> Apparently I am a demigod(dess) with control issues and
> delusions of grandeur who is incapable of thinking things
> through and who makes autonomous decisions.
>

Well, geeze, and here I thought you'd given up your Master of the Universe
title....

Dawn



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I asked earlier about fees for embedded index, could someone refer to that
message and let me know what they think?
Thanks
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rae" <racric@...>
To: <indexl@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, January 30, 2004 4:59 PM
Subject: [indexl] RE: [index-l] Re: new group


> Thanks, Charles! So far we have 24 or 25 new subscribers in like 2
> hrs, so I think we can assume there is a need and desire for this
> list. Let's start talkin' indexing!
>
> Rae
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
> To visit your group on the web, go to:
>  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/indexl/
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>  indexl-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
>  http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

Me again,

Why don't you send your message, below, to Index-L as well as this list?  I
think they need to know what is happening to you as well, you should not be
attacked like this, it is sooo wrong.  If someone has something to say, it
should be on the list, as you did not broach this idea to each one of us
individually, and no one is forcing us to sign up for your new list!  The
ones that are writing these nasty letters should be ashamed of themselves.
I don't know why, but this reminds me of the people who are screaming at
Bill Gate's success and want him stopped - I don't understand that either,
that is what free trade is all about.  If you don't like it - don't buy it
(or buy into it)  Simple as that!!!!
Bobbi
----- Original Message -----
From: "sevencatday" <racric@...>
To: <indexl@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, January 30, 2004 4:36 PM
Subject: [indexl] OT: hate mail


> Well, no big surprise but I'm getting some very nasty off-list mail.
> If any of you guys feel up to it, would you offer up some support
> on Index-L  for this list (indexl), and why you think it will be a good
> thing and not lead to to the total annihilation of indexers
> everywhere?
>
> Apparently I am a demigod(dess) with control issues and
> delusions of grandeur who is incapable of thinking things
> through and who makes autonomous decisions.
>
> Ouch. Not.
>
> R
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
> To visit your group on the web, go to:
>  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/indexl/
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>  indexl-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
>  http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

Oh, I just realized - I have written a letter, maybe 2 already to Index-L!
Just forgot, must be my "sometimer's" disease!

If there is anything else I can do to help - let me know!  I owe you and
others on the list so much for the support you have shown me that I look for
any opportunity to repay the kindness!

Bobbi
----- Original Message -----
From: "sevencatday" <racric@...>
To: <indexl@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, January 30, 2004 4:36 PM
Subject: [indexl] OT: hate mail


> Well, no big surprise but I'm getting some very nasty off-list mail.
> If any of you guys feel up to it, would you offer up some support
> on Index-L  for this list (indexl), and why you think it will be a good
> thing and not lead to to the total annihilation of indexers
> everywhere?
>
> Apparently I am a demigod(dess) with control issues and
> delusions of grandeur who is incapable of thinking things
> through and who makes autonomous decisions.
>
> Ouch. Not.
>
> R
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
> To visit your group on the web, go to:
>  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/indexl/
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>  indexl-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
>  http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

Of course I will, but I think the 50 limit has been met, as I sent one in
after someone said they were #48.  So I will write, but it might have to be
sent tomorrow.  I am so sorry your good intentions are being met with such a
negative response.  It is obvious you have a good idea - look how many have
signed up just minutes after you announced the new list (I was the first).

Carolyn did write that she thought this was the worst decision ever, but I
think there are quite a few of us who disagree, maybe not on the list, but
by showing our support by signing up.

You thought things out, or you wouldn't have done it!  You not only have my
support, but virtual hugs for doing it.  You know the saying - "change is
good"  Next time you get a negative note, just use your demigoddess power
(also called the delete button) and disintegrate the ingrates!

Thanks for taking this on - you have our support.  If you need to scream, or
rant, I am a good listener!
Bobbi

----- Original Message -----
From: "sevencatday" <racric@...>
To: <indexl@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, January 30, 2004 4:36 PM
Subject: [indexl] OT: hate mail


> Well, no big surprise but I'm getting some very nasty off-list mail.
> If any of you guys feel up to it, would you offer up some support
> on Index-L  for this list (indexl), and why you think it will be a good
> thing and not lead to to the total annihilation of indexers
> everywhere?
>
> Apparently I am a demigod(dess) with control issues and
> delusions of grandeur who is incapable of thinking things
> through and who makes autonomous decisions.
>
> Ouch. Not.
>
> R
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
> To visit your group on the web, go to:
>  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/indexl/
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>  indexl-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
>  http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

Thanks, Charles! So far we have 24 or 25 new subscribers in like 2
hrs, so I think we can assume there is a need and desire for this
list. Let's start talkin' indexing!

Rae

I am posting this to both groups.

Here's why I think Rae's idea could be a Very Good Thing.

The latest statistics on Index-L are as follows:

Total members:  1123
Total messages:  26489
Messages today:  48
Messages in 7 days:  260
Messages in 30 days:  996


I could be completely wrong on this, but my intuition suggests to me that
there probably are not 1,123 highly interested and motivated indexer
subscribers.  Certainly if you examine the names of the posters over the
past 30 days by looking at the archives you do not see 1,123 different
names.  If you plotted the names on a bell curve, I would suspect that at
most about 50 names would account for 95% of the postings.

So who are the other 1,000+ members?  Some are no doubt index students even
though there is a separate list for students (and I think it's worthwhile
for students to subscribe to both lists).  Let's assume for the sake of
argument that there are about 100 students (this group doesn't show numbers
of members on Yahoo, but I'm extrapolating from the number of messages
posted).  Can there really be 1,000 or so lurkers on Index-L?  Is it
possible that there are that many people who simply breeze through the 50
emails a day and delete?  What I am wondering is whether the number of
subscribers is a factor in the host setting the limit that exists--and
whether the list of subscribers should be re-validated.

Also, there often is so much repetion on postings--me tooism--that I find
myself after a few days simply deleting without reading more.  The
"subentries" thread that seemed to go on forever was in my opinion
overworked.  A new list, with only highly motivated subscribers, might
provide we indexers with a leaner, if not necessarily meaner, fighting
machine.

Note: Since there are already 48 messages today, this one may not get
through!

Charles

Well, no big surprise but I'm getting some very nasty off-list mail.
If any of you guys feel up to it, would you offer up some support
on Index-L  for this list (indexl), and why you think it will be a good
thing and not lead to to the total annihilation of indexers
everywhere?

Apparently I am a demigod(dess) with control issues and
delusions of grandeur who is incapable of thinking things
through and who makes autonomous decisions.

Ouch. Not.

R

Hi All,

I have a follow-up question to the one I posted about embedded indexes.
Because there is so much more work involved (I have learned a lot about
embedded indexes), I assume the fee for doing this would also be higher to
compensate for all of the coding.  Is embedded indexing used a lot, or is it
not due to the higher fees (than BOB indexing)?
Thanks in advance,
Bobbi


----- Original Message -----
From: "Rae" <racric@...>
To: <indexl@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, January 30, 2004 12:50 PM
Subject: [indexl] hi everyone


> Glad to see you all here! Feel free to start posting just as you
> would on the other index-l. For a while it's maybe a good idea to
> post questions in both places until we see how membership here goes.
>
> Rae
> --
> Rachel Rice
> Freelance indexing and editing
> Brookline, Vermont USA
> http://www.sevencatday.com
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
> To visit your group on the web, go to:
>  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/indexl/
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>  indexl-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
>  http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

>
>Since YahooGroups has polling cabilities, can anyone set up a poll
>related to indexing? Or is this for the moderator (or appointees (?))
>to do?

anyone can, should be interesting!
--
Rachel Rice
Freelance indexing and editing
Brookline, Vermont USA
http://www.sevencatday.com

Hi Dawn,

I think anyone can do it. At least that's the way it is on the SKYIndexUsers
list.

Kamm

-----Original Message-----
From: Dawn Spencer [mailto:indexlady@...]
Sent: Friday, January 30, 2004 4:20 PM
To: indexl@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [indexl] Question Regarding Polls


Hi there,

Since YahooGroups has polling cabilities, can anyone set up a poll
related to indexing? Or is this for the moderator (or appointees (?))
to do?

Thanks,
Dawn






Yahoo! Groups Links

To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/indexl/

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
indexl-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:  http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Hi there,

Since YahooGroups has polling cabilities, can anyone set up a poll
related to indexing? Or is this for the moderator (or appointees (?))
to do?

Thanks,
Dawn

Glad to see you all here! Feel free to start posting just as you
would on the other index-l. For a while it's maybe a good idea to
post questions in both places until we see how membership here goes.

Rae
--
Rachel Rice
Freelance indexing and editing
Brookline, Vermont USA
http://www.sevencatday.com

Hello,

This email message is a notification to let you know that
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the indexl
group.

   File        : /Welcome
   Uploaded by : sevencatday <racric@...>
   Description : FAQs

You can access this file at the URL

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/indexl/files/Welcome

To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit

http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/groups/files

Regards,

sevencatday <racric@...>