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Re: Is there a lack of perceived schedule pressure in Kanban?   Message List  
Reply | Forward Message #1777 of 6448 |
Re: [kanbandev] Re: Is there a lack of perceived schedule pressure in Kanban?

Hi Tim,

Let me try again.

2009/1/31 timuttormark <timuttormark@...>

In Scrum, all tasks for the iteration are estimated by the team in
sprint planning.  Tasks assignments are not known at the time of sprint
planning.  The task estimate results from a team consensus, so the one
doing the work on a task is not (solely) responsible for creating the
estimate.

In my example, Harry (due to his incompetence) and Bill (due to his
laziness) would fall short of the standard set by the team's task
estimates.  Jeff's behavior will not point as clearly to him as the
problem, but will still be manifested as a team issue.  Since he is
highly skilled, he is probably able to produce at a higher rate than the
average team member, and he can finish his tasks on time despite
overengineering them.  The team however would be better off if he
stopped at "good enough", finished early and moved on to other tasks.
Jeff's dysfunction would likely be manifested as the team missing their
sprint commitments -- the team needs the above average performers to
complete more than their share of tasks to compensate for the lesser
performers.   In this case the team's estimate of how much work they can
commit to completing in an iteration provides a standard for comparison
of team performance.  Of course this can be gamed too, but requires more
of a team conspiracy than just individual efforts to undermine it.

I'll start by describing my perspective on the Scrum approach to dealing with your example.  Then I can compare/contrast the Kanban approach similarly.

Sprint Planning is where the team collectively and collaboratively plans and commits to a small increment of work.  As you say, this meeting will highlight any mismatches in understanding of the problem or solution by generating the Sprint Backlog with tasks and estimates, such that the whole team has a common understanding of what needs doing and how long it should take.  Harry's incompetence can be mitigated because he should have a better understanding of the solution. Bill's laziness can be mitigated because he has been part of the estimation process, and Jeff's over-enthusiasm can be mitigated because scope has been clearly discussed.

The Sprint Review is where the team are accountable for their Sprint commitment. This accountability should again mitigate for Harry, Bill and Jeff, because they have to demonstrate their progress and explain variation from the plan.

The Sprint Retrospective is where the team can explore reasons behind variations from the plan (and strengths and weaknesses in general) and can inspect and adapt in order to learn and improve.  Over time, this can also mitigate individual weaknesses.

So for Kanban...

Sprint Planning becomes Feature Planning.  Rather than planning a timeboxes worth of product increment, the team plans a single valuable increment at a time - sometimes referred to as a Minimal Marketable Feature (MMF). The team limits the amount of work in progress in order to minimise the cycle time of these MMFs.  Once they have completed and released an MMF, the pick up a new one and start by planning it. The Planning can happens as a team, and break down into tasks and estimates as per Scrum, thus bring the same benefits and mitigating weaknesses in the same way.  A possible downside is the break in flow that may happen when you bring the team together.  A solution to this could be to keep a prioritisation and planning cadence - e.g. a weekly meeting to decide what the team will be working on next, and to plan it out.  The frequency of this meeting will probably depend on throughput.  The more frequently the team is able to complete and release work, the more frequently this meeting can be scheduled.  A difference between this planning cadence meeting and a sprint planning meeting, is that the planning is 'de-coupled' from the release.  In other words, whatever is planned does not have to be completed and released before the next planning meeting.  In an ideal world, however, the MMFs are able to be small enough such that they can be completed and released within a week.  In this case, Scrum with weekly Sprints can look very similar to Kanban.

Because of this 'de-coupling' of planning and release, a commit and deadline is made per MMF.  This is sometimes referred to as a Service Level Agreement (SLA) between the team and business.  The SLA says that the team will deliver features X days from when they are prioritised in the planning cadence, and is usually derived from past measurement of cycle-time.  Where there is variability in the size of MMFs, different SLAs can be set for different sizes.  Standard Scrum story point estimating can be used to classify the MMFs into different SLAs.  A Due Date Performance (DDP) metric can also be  measured, which is the percentage of MMFs delivered within their SLA.  This SLA and DDP is what creates the equivalent team accountability in Kanban.  I blogged some more about this here: http://availagility.wordpress.com/2008/04/09/kanban-commitment/

Sprint Review can still happen as part of the Release cadence.  However, as we have de-coupled planning from release, this can happen as frequently as necessary, depending on the cost associated with a release.  In the ideal world, this cost is zero, and you could release small MMFs daily.  In this case, a small review of each MMF as it is completed might be appropriate.  If there is a small release process the team needs to go through, then a weekly release cadence might be better, with a weekly Review.  Whatever the frequency, the release cadence brings the same accountability for what has been delivered, and how long it has taken.

Sprint Retrospectives, similarly, can still happen with their own cadence.  Kanban does try and shift the emphasis on the improvement to be as continuous and 'kaizen' as possible, but a fortnightly or monthly retrospective would certainly be a good thing to start with.  Again, the retrospective brings the same benefits as in Scrum.  I blogged some more about this here: http://availagility.wordpress.com/2008/08/28/kanban-and-retrospectives/

So I'd say in summary that a kanban approach includes all the elements of Scrum (including stand ups as well), but decouples them from all being tied to the Sprint.  This can create a more natural process.  On the other hand, it can also be less clear what to do when as its not so defined.

I hope that helps - keep asking if anything needs discussing further.

Karl

--
Karl Scotland
Agile Coach
http://availagility.wordpress.com/


Tue Feb 3, 2009 12:02 pm

kjscotland
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Lean / Agile is like tantric sex. It's not once every six months "if you're lucky" but continuous integration and release after release after release. Endless...
David Peterson
dpeterson72
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Feb 4, 2009
5:42 am

Hi Tim, Let me try again. 2009/1/31 timuttormark <timuttormark@...> ... I'll start by describing my perspective on the Scrum approach to dealing with...
Karl Scotland
kjscotland
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Feb 3, 2009
12:02 pm

... many thanks! at least to me, that was a tremendously helpful explanation of the 'mapping' between Scrum (something I have been through) and Kanban ...
Raoul Duke
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Feb 3, 2009
7:12 pm

... On my last client, we started introducing some Kanban-like ideas. One thing that became very clear was the disruption of shutting down and starting up the...
Steve Freeman
smg_freeman
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Mar 16, 2009
1:42 pm

... If we have established flow in our process and can pull work anytime, there is really no reason to interrupt arbitrarily interrupt development every...
John Goodsen
jgoodsen
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Mar 16, 2009
3:40 pm

Just some random thoughts before eating lunch. Could be spurious, useful, mundane... who knows. Felt compelled to put them down and see. A kanban system limits...
Aaron Sanders
aremsan
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Mar 16, 2009
9:22 pm

... It seems to be an assumption of the Kanban critique of Scrum-like processes that this sort of stoppage is usual, or even mandatory. I've been interested to...
Keith Braithwaite
keithwdssg
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Mar 16, 2009
11:09 pm

Iteration planning is waste - it inhibits flow and pull. Sent from my iPhone On Mar 16, 2009, at 7:08 PM, "Keith Braithwaite"...
John Goodsen
jgoodsen
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Mar 16, 2009
11:23 pm

While it is true that many iteration planning sessions waste team member energy, planning the stories or work requests has value. Certainly, creating a common...
lindamcook3000
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Mar 17, 2009
12:21 am

Your description sounds very lean to me. My experience has been iteration planning periods that take up a full day of a 10 day (working days) sprint. That did...
Troy Tuttle
troy_tuttle
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Mar 17, 2009
3:05 am

This same dysfunction has been reported at Corbis since more recent management switched them back to Scrum from Kanban. It's clearly a repeatable pattern. It...
David J Anderson
netherby_uk
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Mar 17, 2009
6:37 am

... or ... or ... All three of these are direct responses to the same comment about planning. What's a team to do? Keith...
Keith Braithwaite
keithwdssg
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Mar 17, 2009
6:51 am

I guess I'm not sure what is confusing. Without speaking for others on this list, I believe formal iteration planning contains some amount of waste and some...
Troy Tuttle
troy_tuttle
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Mar 17, 2009
4:21 pm

Hi, Pardon the newbie from butting in ... When you summarize it like this, I don't see these three as seperate. I would actually consider that these three...
Miroslav Novak
miroslavnovak
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Mar 17, 2009
5:48 pm

... i liked that analogy, quite helpful. :-) sincerely....
Raoul Duke
theraoulduke
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Mar 17, 2009
5:55 pm

reminds me of the stages to mastery shu-ha-ri http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shuhari...
Aaron Sanders
aremsan
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Mar 17, 2009
7:02 pm

... Ah, but to be a professional chef, you *must* have your mise en place in place or you will collapse during service. I think it is a mistake to suggest that...
jdn3times
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Mar 18, 2009
6:47 pm

Which leads us back to real options or the peeled shrimp as I will now think of them. Part prepared MMFs to enable fast assembly when required.... Yummy ... --...
Chris Matts
chrisjmatts1968
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Mar 18, 2009
7:27 pm

OK. Let's address this head on... Definition of waste versus value-add... "If you believe something to be value-adding would you do more it? would your...
David J Anderson
netherby_uk
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Mar 18, 2009
9:36 pm

There are (I think) three points here that aren't necessarily equivalent: 1) Would you do more of it? 2) Would the customer pay more for the outcome if you do...
jdn3times
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Mar 19, 2009
4:10 am

... Maybe. "Unavoidable waste", though, is just a fact. Given that, then "eliminating waste" is an impossible goal. Reducing waste a much more sensible one. ...
Keith Braithwaite
keithwdssg
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Mar 19, 2009
9:11 am

Keith's wording pretty much reflects the general usage in Lean. For example... transaction costs are inevitable. If you walk in to a store and buy something...
David J Anderson
netherby_uk
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Mar 19, 2009
10:37 pm

Then let's switch to your brilliant analogy. Introducing 'waste' increases liquidity and enables a lot more transactions, thus increasing total value. ...
jdn3times
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Mar 20, 2009
12:30 am

I'd prefer not to conduct this discussion any further with someone who remains anonymous. Can you tell us who you are and sign your posts with your name?...
David J Anderson
netherby_uk
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Mar 20, 2009
7:39 am

I'm with David on this one. Perhaps you could tell us your background. You may be someone with depth of experience in Lean etc. or you could be Ron Jeffries...
chrisjmatts1968
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Mar 20, 2009
11:06 am

Sure. My name is John Nuechterlein. I first appeared online around 1996 on Usenet in the Babylon5 moderated newsgroup, but finding censorship boring and...
jdn3times
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Mar 20, 2009
4:12 pm

Your mom tells the story much better than you do. :-p...
Brad Wilson
bradw_64
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Mar 20, 2009
5:05 pm

Welcome John. Your mother has it wrong. Sarcasm is a gift. You may enjoy the discussion on the real options group as well (...
chrisjmatts1968
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Mar 20, 2009
5:25 pm

Welcome John You are not Ron Jeffries. That is enough for me. I've only just finished my therapy sessions from the last visit. As for sarcasm. Your mother...
chrisjmatts1968
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Mar 20, 2009
6:02 pm

... First, why is the shrimp example a poor one to explain waste? I feel its a poor analogy because it confused product with costs. The peeling of the shrimp...
David J Anderson
netherby_uk
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Mar 20, 2009
7:18 pm
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