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Fellow travelers, it is time to free kanban from the shackles of its   Message List  
Reply Message #1934 of 7008 |
Re: Fellow travelers, it is time to free kanban from the shackles of its origin!

"I think software does go through phases..."

I struggled to articulate this in my first book though some guys like
Alan Shalloway have said that the way I described it really did switch
a light on for them.

I like the way Chris Matts articulates it. "Software development is an
information arrival process." We happen to have given names to stages
of arrival. Those names are things like analyzed, designed, coded,
tested. TDD might a different approach but there is still an
information arrival process. How many tests have been written and how
many of them are passing. I suspect there is still an "analyzed" stage
where the test to be written have been defined.

Hence, if we want to track how developed something is we ask how much
information has arrived and give stages of arrival names for
convenience. In some development processes those stages also coincide
with handoffs between specialist functions. Sometimes they don't. In
some craft style processes there is no relationship between handoffs
and information arrival.

Regardless of whether there are handoffs or not we can still manage it
with kanban. There is benefit in limiting WIP and pulling value through.

David

--- In kanbandev@yahoogroups.com, "Aaron Sanders" <aremsan@...> wrote:
>
> I think software does go through phases, just how big/long to they
have to be? How big do





Mon Feb 23, 2009 9:49 pm

netherby_uk
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Message #1934 of 7008 |
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I don't care about Toyota. The flow is value, determined by market demand. Maybe I'm not clever enough for creative turns of phrase. One piece flow is how best...
Aaron Sanders
aremsan
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Feb 23, 2009
3:18 am

"I think software does go through phases..." I struggled to articulate this in my first book though some guys like Alan Shalloway have said that the way I...
David J Anderson
netherby_uk
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Feb 23, 2009
9:49 pm

I've heard this from Chris before and appreciate the reminder. Tweeted as well: I have test, build, deploy, innovate as examples of value transitions in a ...
Aaron Sanders
aremsan
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Feb 23, 2009
10:33 pm

That's not TDD. Certainly information "arrives" during the process. "Information is discovered" during the process, is probably a better description. Yes, the...
Jeff Grigg
jeffgrigg63132
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Feb 24, 2009
2:44 am

I think this can only be true at the developer level. At the acceptance level you surely have to plan the tests in advance? And I agree, if your doing what I...
David J Anderson
netherby_uk
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Feb 24, 2009
7:52 am

Yes: Every story should have acceptance tests defined before development starts. These acceptance tests will fail at first (if they're runnable at that...
jeffgrigg@...
jeffgrigg63132
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Feb 24, 2009
1:35 pm

On 24 Feb 2009, at 02:44, Jeff Grigg wrote: [snip] ... [snip] I like that description of TDD - nice. I shall steal it ;-) Cheers, Adrian -- ...
Adrian Howard
ajh65537
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Feb 25, 2009
1:24 pm

So now I understand why so many of these reported kanban systems make me uncomfortable: the batch size is too large, the WIP is too high vesus whay I would...
Keith Braithwaite
keithwdssg
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Feb 24, 2009
7:09 am

Hi Keith, 2009/2/24 Keith Braithwaite <keith@...> ... This really surprised me - I see kanban as reducing batch sizes, and keeping WIP...
Karl Scotland
kjscotland
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Feb 26, 2009
3:05 am

Karl, ... Maybe it's just a difference in our definitions of the jargon, but I'd say you could break that down into 4 levels: 1. The MMF (where an MMF is made...
Steven Harman
ussherm
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Feb 26, 2009
3:33 am

Hi Keith, 2009/2/24 Keith Braithwaite <keith@...> ... This really surprised me - I see kanban as reducing batch sizes, and keeping WIP...
Karl Scotland
kjscotland
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Feb 26, 2009
3:05 am

... Well, of course you do. That's the very point of the thing, right? From what I've seen described this seems mainly to be achieved by making the...
Keith Braithwaite
keithwdssg
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Feb 26, 2009
6:52 am

2009/2/26 Keith Braithwaite <keith@...> ... OK. So low batch size does not guarantee low WIP. Agreed. ... Where? There may be lumps,...
Karl Scotland
kjscotland
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Feb 26, 2009
9:59 pm

Hi, I think this is what makes me (and others) most uncomfortable. Stating that there are phases, implies that work happens sequential. Personally, I don't...
Bas Vodde
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Feb 26, 2009
12:14 pm

Hi Bas 2009/2/26 Bas Vodde <basv@...> ... I'm curious. Given your book covers Lean, I assume you use value stream maps. What words would you use to...
Karl Scotland
kjscotland
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Feb 26, 2009
9:33 pm

Hi, Actually, we rarely use and barely mention value stream maps, for several reasons... Inside development it is not always the right tool to use. Bas...
Bas Vodde
basvodde
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Feb 27, 2009
12:02 am

... as somebody just learning about them (shock!) i'd like to hear what advice people have for not/using them. thank you....
Raoul Duke
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Feb 27, 2009
12:04 am

Hi Raoul, Just to be clear, I'm not recommending against them either. They might be a useful tool for gaining insight in your development. Its just that they...
Bas Vodde
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Feb 27, 2009
5:02 am

2009/2/26 Bas Vodde <basv@...> ... OK. So what do you consider to be inside and outside development? (Will get round to reading the book soon...
Karl Scotland
kjscotland
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Feb 27, 2009
12:19 am

... Hi, ... Well, thats not always easy. I'd consider anything from the requirement in to the product out to be SW development. Within that frame, there are...
Bas Vodde
basvodde
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Feb 27, 2009
5:06 am

Bas This is a very leading statement. So what ideas do you think David will come up with? or in other words..... What are the implications of test after v test...
Chris
chrisjmatts1968
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Feb 27, 2009
8:13 am

... I was fully trained in Lean back in 1996. Only then they were calling it TQM. It was at a big US company and we tried to use lean techniques foe...
beckfordp@...
beckfordp...
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Mar 5, 2009
10:41 pm

Hi Paul, Thanks for the insights. It is not often we have someone join us who can claim TQM, CMM Assessor and XP practitioner, glad you could join in the ...
Robin Dymond
rdymond1
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Mar 5, 2009
10:57 pm

Hi Robin, Thanks for the welcome. I guess what lay behind my many statements was a question. How does feedback work in Kanban? In manufacturing, you can rely...
beckfordp@...
beckfordp...
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Mar 6, 2009
8:26 am

Paul, In our Kanban framework, we have feedback in a lot of the same ways we would in an XP fashion. The engineering practices are similar (TDD, sometimes...
Landes Eric (CI/CER-NA)
dcma_eric
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Mar 6, 2009
5:55 pm

Hi Eric, Dave, Thanks for the responses. How does improving the process (rather than improving the product) fit into this? I'm thinking of velocity,...
beckfordp@...
beckfordp...
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Mar 6, 2009
7:37 pm

Paul, I am not sure I am following the question. Are you saying how do you improve the kanban process? Or how does this process improvement (encouraging test...
Landes Eric (CI/CER-NA)
dcma_eric
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Mar 6, 2009
8:18 pm

... Hi Eric, The breakthrough for me when applying Kiazen (change for the better) to software development, was realising that developing software was far too...
beckfordp@...
beckfordp...
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Mar 7, 2009
12:52 am

A goal of the design of the Scrumban process was to include evolutionary states that were a strict superset of Scrum. So, most of the iterations of Scrumban...
Corey Ladas
corey.ladas
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Mar 7, 2009
1:05 am

Paul, Can you be more specific? Exactly what was sketchy and where would you like to see more detail? This is the kind of feedback we need to in order to...
David J Anderson
netherby_uk
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Mar 7, 2009
1:19 am
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