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A couple of questions and some thoughts   Message List  
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Re: [kanbandev] A couple of questions and some thoughts

Hi Russell,

I've long been concerned with these issues of work scope.  The 2-tier cardwall was one approach to address that, and was meant to generalize to n-tier.  Another approach was the rolling-wave style telescoping scope, where early stages were broader and fuzzier in scope and also longer in duration.  These early stages might "rain down" work requests until they dissipate instead of travelling whole down the workflow.  So, perhaps a small limit of large things rather than a large limit of small things?

Somewhere between BDUF and NDUF is just-enough-design-up-front, perhaps in the spirit of Eisenhower's “In preparing for battle I have always found that plans are useless, but planning is indispensable.”  One of the cool things about pipelining work is that we can separate scope from sequence.  We can have high-level product design activities that feed into detailed engineering design activities and we can do all of these activities all of the time.  WIP limits allow us to do that without losing control of the feedback.

The beauty of iterative design is that it allows us to have such clarifying dialog with the customer.  That dialog is one of the greatest benefits of breaking the work into small releases with short lead times.  You can think of it as an experiment with a series of design trials that aim to maximize information discovery c.f. Reinertsen.  Eric Ries has a lot to say about that line of thinking on his Startup Lessons Learned blog.

Off to the beach....

Corey


On Fri, Jul 3, 2009 at 6:51 AM, Russell Healy <russell.healy@...> wrote:


Hi all

I have a couple of practical questions regarding the use of Kanban.

1. Some kinds of work, such as usability/interaction design are
suggested to be performed best on a larger set of features, rather than
on individual features. Scrum teams often do this kind of work in Sprint
n-1. The risk of focusing exclusively on one-piece flow, is a disjointed
design and/or user experience. Is this a problem, and if so, how have
people addressed it? I imagine it could be addressed by adding an early
"Usability" state, and giving it a relatively high limit, such that a
larger set of functionality can be considered together - but this would
obviously impact cycle time. The need for high-level system design is
similar.

2. Often our customers don't really know what they want until they see
it in action. Since we are using tools that allow us to change our minds
easily (Rails), the cost of making design mistakes is lower than the
cost of detailed analysis. Therefore, we find that it is often best to
start with a fairly vague idea of what the customer wants, write
something, and iterate in collaboration with the co-located customer.
The Pragmatic Programmers call this "Tracer Bullets" (p 48 in their
original book). My question is, given this situation, do people still
find value in splitting out an "Analysis" state? Bear in mind that
development includes TDD and automated acceptance testing.

My second question seems to contradict my first. In past projects we
have not done any usability work up front, and we have been bitten for
it.

My short story, and a few thoughts:

When my team first started doing agile development (about 18 months
ago), we didn't know anything about Kanban or Scrum. We found it natural
to work without iterations, and to pull features from TODO, to In
Progress, to Done, generally limiting ourselves (though no strictly) to
one or two items in 'In Progress'. It was only after attending a CSM
course that I 'saw the light' and implemented iterations, along with the
rest of Scrum. We liked the ability to report on progress and
extrapolate for future planning. However my reading quickly turned to
Lean, and I had a niggling feeling about the artificial constraint of a
time-box, and started to think about applying flow more faithfully. I
first came across the Kanban movement when David Anderson's presentation
was published on InfoQ, and was thrilled to find that others had already
blazed the trail. My sphere of influence has since grown to cover
several development teams, and over the next few weeks and months I will
be working to move them from Scrum to Kanban.

Reading Corey Ladas' book has been fantastic - I love the clarity of his
thinking and explanation, especially in exposing the assumptions we can
so easily make, or accept when so many people are espousing them. My
only grumble is the title of the book. I have heard of several mutations
of agile methodologies, including "ScRUP" and when I first read the
title "Scrumban" I assumed it was another misguided twisting of Scrum.
On reading it I was pleased to find otherwise :)

One thing that lean authors constantly remind us is that lean is more
than a set of tools, and that many would-be adopters of lean (eg: GM)
understood and implemented the techniques, but missed the real
differences that set Toyota apart. Some of these are "respect for
people" (ie: empowering and challenging people to use their full
capability) developing a "culture of continuous improvement" and
developing the ability to capture and benefit from tacit knowledge. I
think it's great that Kanban is being applied so successfully. Let's
make sure we also learn and develop the finer characteristics of a lean
organisation.

One final question. Does anyone maintain a collection/listing of Kanban
resources available on the web, particularly references to video
presentations? If not I might need to start one :)

Cheers

Russell Healy
Wellington, New Zealand




Fri Jul 3, 2009 5:12 pm

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... Check out: http://www.limitedwipsociety.org/?page_id=12...
Kurt Häusler
kurt.haeusler
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Jul 3, 2009
1:56 pm

Hi Russell, I've long been concerned with these issues of work scope. The 2-tier cardwall was one approach to address that, and was meant to generalize to ...
Corey Ladas
corey.ladas
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Jul 3, 2009
5:13 pm

Russell, The biggest misunderstanding about Kanban is that you change your process. You don't! You model what you do now. If you currently don't have a...
David J Anderson
netherby_uk
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Jul 4, 2009
4:00 am

I prefer this as a fifth principle.... "Don't change your process, just limit it." ... -- Regards Chris Matts...
Chris Matts
chrisjmatts1968
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Jul 4, 2009
12:58 pm

Thanks for the excellent feedback and references! Corey: I like the concept of an earlier stage emitting work requests until dissipated, I hadn't thought of...
Russell Healy
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Jul 4, 2009
12:52 pm

Re: question 2 on Analysis state: We have a similar situation with ongoing interactions with the customer/stakeholder. We do have a "Design" state, but the...
Rick Simmons
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Jul 4, 2009
6:14 pm

This is an interesting thread. Back on my seemingly interminable Deming kick (sorry!), if I understand him correctly, he would tend to contend that the first...
Jean Tabaka
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Jul 4, 2009
11:21 pm

This description is not resonating with me. My understanding is that you stabilize the process - this implies that it exhibits control behavior meaning that...
David J Anderson
netherby_uk
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Jul 4, 2009
11:28 pm

Thanks for your reply David. I get the notion of process stabilization and designating allowable variances. In stabilizing the process, is it out of the...
Jean Tabaka
jeantabaka
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Jul 4, 2009
11:42 pm

... i think that's the wrong question. how do you know a process is worth stabilizing or not? in my experience and understanding, you have to stabilize the...
Derick Bailey
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Jul 5, 2009
3:28 am

Hi Derick, I totally disagree. If I ask a team of 10 people if their current process is making their lives hell and is unsuccessful and all 10 answer YES. Then...
beckfordp@...
beckfordp...
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Jul 5, 2009
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Hi Paul On Sun, Jul 5, 2009 at 3:04 AM, ... In your example, there is is not enough data for me to decide if it just one part of the process or all parts of...
Norbert Winklareth
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Jul 5, 2009
5:18 pm

Hi Norbert, I apologise for my lack of precision :) If something isn't working, you don't always need to "stablise" then measure to know that it isn't working....
beckfordp@...
beckfordp...
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Jul 5, 2009
6:08 pm

Paul, On Sun, Jul 5, 2009 at 1:08 PM, ... i think this comes down to what we mean by "stabilize"... i think if we find a shared understanding of this, the...
Derick Bailey
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Jul 5, 2009
7:10 pm

Hi Paul: On Sun, Jul 5, 2009 at 2:08 PM, beckfordp@...< ... working. ... one ... Thank you for response. I have had similar experiences and the...
Norbert Winklareth
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Jul 5, 2009
8:12 pm

... Why do you need to know that? Why not just ask the people who have to live in it to fix it? Ron Jeffries www.XProgramming.com www.xprogramming.com/blog You...
Ron Jeffries
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Jul 5, 2009
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Hi Ron: On Sun, Jul 5, 2009 at 3:02 PM, Ron ... I like to figure out things, reach my own conclusions about how to solve problems and so I was asking to try to...
Norbert Winklareth
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Jul 5, 2009
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... OK ... ... OK ... ... Well I'm not suggesting that one not /think/. But coaching would consist of a few simple things that experience readily equips us to ...
Ron Jeffries
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Jul 5, 2009
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Hi Ron, On Sun, Jul 5, 2009 at 3:46 PM, Ron Jeffries ... You are right, you can go far with these general types of questions, and in some situations they are...
Norbert Winklareth
borkofnick
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Jul 5, 2009
10:18 pm

Hey Paul, I'm not sure where the disagreement is coming from. I agree with what you are saying, and don't see the conflict between what you've said and what I...
Derick Bailey
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Jul 5, 2009
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Hi Norbet, Thanks for clarifying. The blurred line I speak of is the line between what is agile and what isn't. Lots of companies love the label Agile, but...
beckfordp@...
beckfordp...
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Jul 5, 2009
8:12 pm

Hi Derick, Did I say Hi Norbert? Sorry. P....
beckfordp@...
beckfordp...
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Jul 5, 2009
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How would you judge whether something was worth stabilizing? My view on this is that things are what they are. You start there and you make progress. While...
David J Anderson
netherby_uk
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Jul 5, 2009
3:32 am

I think the key point here is "Stabilizing a process ought to be non-threatening /to those performing the process/". This is "doers" and data driven change. ...
Christophe Louvion
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Jul 5, 2009
7:13 am

Yes, and so it goes back to trust, which allows teams to get beyond the fear and uncertainty of change. It's pretty rudimentary, but a substantial challenge...
Rick Simmons
simmons3k
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Jul 5, 2009
1:30 pm

So Rick, what is it about Kanban that appears to raise the social capital in organizations?... Transparency on both the work and the process/workflow but it...
David J Anderson
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Jul 5, 2009
5:54 pm

David, I think organizational focus and shared values are at the center of this. If an organization is not all focused on the same goal, with the same values,...
Derick Bailey
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Jul 5, 2009
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This is pretty basic, but it seems like when I'm coaching new Scrum teams, I'm emphasizing ground rules a lot, and asking team to self-organize within those...
Rick Simmons
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Jul 6, 2009
2:07 pm

I have seen trust grow within our organization and between us and our clients on projects using Kanban. Maybe this has already been discussed, but the simple...
Chris Shinkle
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Jul 11, 2009
6:41 pm

Chris and others, I've been on this board for a bit but have not contributed. I am not 100% sure I'm fully up to speed on this thread. That said, everything ...
Mike Cottmeyer
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Jul 11, 2009
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