Agree. (3) then (1) and (2) (if need) sometimes makes a lot is sense than (1), (2), and (3).

Good place to start is David's kanban book

--
Sent from a phone that often corrects words I tapped (or "swyped" )  to words I may not have meant.

Hi - Thanks for the reply. We actually tried that today with a level of success.
But it did lead to people waiting to be asked, and one person running the
standup. At the end the team were asked for improvements, suggestions etc, we'll
see what comes back.

Yes I have set WIP limits but they are generous and I'll be looking at making
them lower.

Ben

--- In kanbandev@yahoogroups.com, Ram Srinivasan <vasan.ram@...> wrote:
>
> Are you limiting your work in progress? If not, set WIP limit for each
> lane.
>
> Also, try the "scrum" format of daily standup. The team answers three
> questions
>
> 1.What did I do yesterday?
> 2. What am I doing today?
> 3. What are my blockers/impediments?
>
> hope this helps
>
> Ram
> --
> Sent from a phone that often corrects words I tapped (or "swyped" )  to
> words I may not have meant.
> On Apr 23, 2012 3:33 AM, "tommo245" <tommo245@...> wrote:
>
> > **
> >
> >
> > Hi - We have been running our daily dev standup for approximately 3 weeks
> > now. We're struggling to find the right format to engage everyone. Initial
> > feedback on these is poor, so we obviously have improvements to make.
> > Currently we take each swimlane and each area of work and invite the devs
> > and QA guys to comment, working from the right. It has improved since the
> > beginning, but there are still a lot of blank faces, hands in pockets and
> > feet shuffling.
> >
> > We have a team of just over twenty. We are using an electronic board,
> > projected onto a screen. Trials of physical standup boards prior to full
> > adoption did not have the collaborative and swarming effects suggested.
> > Participants just wanted to go electronic, physically moving tickets was
> > not considered fun. But now we use Jira/Greenhopper there is not much of an
> > improvement in engagement or enthusiasm.
> >
> > Does anyone have any hints, tips or links that could help improve these
> > standups? Help us get the message across that they as devs own it and that
> > it is useful, rather than the current perception of 'a waste of time'.
> >
> > Thanks
> > Ben
> >
> >
> >
>

I didn't mean for my language to come across like that. We aren't ladling out a
bowl of empowerment soup. But without someone getting the ball rolling, without
someone to facilitate, it would have been silence. Or maybe not, we (the dev
team lead and myself) could try not turning up and ask how it went.

Splitting the team is something we've considered. Having taken the area we
control and mapped the workflow, that includes the developers and the QAs. There
is an argument for separating them, but the QA guys are finding it useful to see
what will be coming their way soon. This is an improvement in communication
which I'd rather not lose.



--- In kanbandev@yahoogroups.com, Alan Dayley <alandd@...> wrote:
>
> "Currently we take each swimlane and each area of work and invite the devs and
QA guys to comment, working from the right."
>
> Who is inviting? Why do they have the "authority" to invite people to talk?
The team members will not own the process if someone continues to invite them.
Who ever has been inviting people to speak needs to stay silent and not make eye
contact with the team members. Or they may need to not attend altogether for a
few days or a week.
>
> Second idea: A team of twenty+ is too large. About half or more of them are
probably introverts. An introverted individual will not willingly talk in front
of twenty people, let alone describe problems they are having!  Split the team
and split the board in ways that make sense for the work flow.
>
> Alan
>
> On Apr 23, 2012, at 12:08 AM, "tommo245" <tommo245@...> wrote:
>
> > Hi - We have been running our daily dev standup for approximately 3 weeks
now. We're struggling to find the right format to engage everyone. Initial
feedback on these is poor, so we obviously have improvements to make. Currently
we take each swimlane and each area of work and invite the devs and QA guys to
comment, working from the right. It has improved since the beginning, but there
are still a lot of blank faces, hands in pockets and feet shuffling.
> >
> > We have a team of just over twenty. We are using an electronic board,
projected onto a screen. Trials of physical standup boards prior to full
adoption did not have the collaborative and swarming effects suggested.
Participants just wanted to go electronic, physically moving tickets was not
considered fun. But now we use Jira/Greenhopper there is not much of an
improvement in engagement or enthusiasm.
> >
> > Does anyone have any hints, tips or links that could help improve these
standups? Help us get the message across that they as devs own it and that it is
useful, rather than the current perception of 'a waste of time'.
> >
> > Thanks
> > Ben
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
>

Hi

The immediate improvements we've identified we can make:

- too many 'specialists'. When certain people go on holiday, large gaps in
knowledge show up, and we want these to be identified and rectified. So a
developer becomes free, picks up the next ticket, says I don't know much about
product x and pairs or talks with the expert until they are up to speed.
Previously they would have just had the work assigned to them, and likely it
would have been on something they already were familiar with.

- as a team we used to work on too many things at once, with one or two devs on
any one project/problem. Not all projects are of equal value to the business so
it makes sense to have more people concentrating on delivering priority 1, 2 and
3, whilst 4, 5, ... 10 either wait their turn or get cut as priorities change.
Given our previous way of working, communication between people now working in
similar areas of the codebase is important. Stand up seems the place for that
(as well as throughout the day).

I think the waste of time comments from developers are related to how the stand
up has been held, rather than being anti stand up or believing that everything
is perfect as-is.

The QAs are less critical, the visibility of what is coming their way soon is
already an improvement.

Ben

--- In kanbandev@yahoogroups.com, Karl Scotland <kjscotland@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Ben
>
> I'm wondering about the disconnect between your view that the standups can
> be improved, and the "devs" view that its a waste of time. Is it just
> "devs", or is that shorthand for the whole team? Does the team see any need
> for improvements at all? How do you and the team measure your capability,
> and the impact of stand-ups on any improvement?
>
> If there is a disconnect, how does the board visualise the opportunities
> for improvement that you perceive?
>
> Karl
>
> On 23 April 2012 08:08, tommo245 <tommo245@...> wrote:
>
> > Hi - We have been running our daily dev standup for approximately 3 weeks
> > now. We're struggling to find the right format to engage everyone. Initial
> > feedback on these is poor, so we obviously have improvements to make.
> > Currently we take each swimlane and each area of work and invite the devs
> > and QA guys to comment, working from the right. It has improved since the
> > beginning, but there are still a lot of blank faces, hands in pockets and
> > feet shuffling.
> >
> > We have a team of just over twenty. We are using an electronic board,
> > projected onto a screen. Trials of physical standup boards prior to full
> > adoption did not have the collaborative and swarming effects suggested.
> > Participants just wanted to go electronic, physically moving tickets was
> > not considered fun. But now we use Jira/Greenhopper there is not much of an
> > improvement in engagement or enthusiasm.
> >
> > Does anyone have any hints, tips or links that could help improve these
> > standups? Help us get the message across that they as devs own it and that
> > it is useful, rather than the current perception of 'a waste of time'.
> >
> > Thanks
> > Ben
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> Karl Scotland
> Lean & Agile Coach
> http://www.availagility.co.uk/
>

For those of you attending the Lean Software & Systems Conference in Boston next
month, have you visited the website and created an account? You can create an
account, choose your schedule, see who else is attending and which sessions they
are attending. Maximize the value you get from the event by taking a few minutes
to create an account, plan your schedule and make connections with others you'd
like to meet and share with.

http://lssc12.leanssc.org/

Great, thanks Dave. It is an excellent point. Hands up, it has been done to
them. I'd argue introducing it had to be done to them by someone to get the ball
rolling, but can step aside.

But they are excellent at coming up with their own improvements, and going ahead
and implementing them, so we have that in our culture and in our favour.

Ben

--- In kanbandev@yahoogroups.com, Robert Swanbum <rswany79@...> wrote:
>
> "Is Kanban being done "to them" or "by them"?" <---- Excellent point!
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Dave White <dmhwhite@...>
> To: kanbandev@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Monday, April 23, 2012 11:26 AM
> Subject: Re: [kanbandev] Daily dev standup - problems with engagement
>
>
>  
> I think it's great that after three weeks you have feedback from the team. I
don't think there is anything wrong with any of your implementation details
except that they aren't working in your context. :) 
>
> What are complaints? What are the team suggesting as opportunities for
improvement? Do they not see value in the visualization, or are they just
generally disengaged? Is Kanban being done "to them" or "by them"?
>
> There are a lot of powerful questions that could be used to help your
situation. Start writing down questions that will probe the problems and start
asking them to the team. You won't be able to convince them this is good for
them. They have to get there on their own.
>
> Cheers,
> Dave
>
>
>
> On Mon, Apr 23, 2012 at 1:08 AM, tommo245 <tommo245@...> wrote:
>
>  
> >Hi - We have been running our daily dev standup for approximately 3 weeks
now. We're struggling to find the right format to engage everyone. Initial
feedback on these is poor, so we obviously have improvements to make. Currently
we take each swimlane and each area of work and invite the devs and QA guys to
comment, working from the right. It has improved since the beginning, but there
are still a lot of blank faces, hands in pockets and feet shuffling.
> >
> >We have a team of just over twenty. We are using an electronic board,
projected onto a screen. Trials of physical standup boards prior to full
adoption did not have the collaborative and swarming effects suggested.
Participants just wanted to go electronic, physically moving tickets was not
considered fun. But now we use Jira/Greenhopper there is not much of an
improvement in engagement or enthusiasm.
> >
> >Does anyone have any hints, tips or links that could help improve these
standups? Help us get the message across that they as devs own it and that it is
useful, rather than the current perception of 'a waste of time'.
> >
> >Thanks
> >Ben
> >
> >
>

I have to admit, shoehorning our workflow into a piece of software has felt
restrictive and laborious, where rubbing out a line on a board would have proven
easier. But we have a real lack of wall space in the office and no suitable
rooms available to hold these which can be guaranteed to be available daily.

It sounds like ownership is the key.

Ben

--- In kanbandev@yahoogroups.com, Ed Larmore <virbots2@...> wrote:
>
> Ben-
>
> Sounds like a bunch of people who don't really want to be there.
>
> A team of volunteers is always more engaged than a team who is compelled to
> participate.
>
> When we started a kanban system in January, I invited the team members, one by
> one.  So the kanban team slowly grew from one to seven over a couple of weeks.
>
> Only one person on the team wasn't that interested, so he shows up two or
three
> times a week instead of daily.
>
> I also ask the team periodically if they can think of a better way to do the
> kanban than what I've thought up; and to my delight, they often do!  Not only
do
> we end up with a better system, but they own it too.
>
> BTW, the only suggestion I resisted was to use a computerized kanban.  Every
> single team member suggested it as they joined the team; but it misses the
point
> of kanban, in my opinion.
>
> -Ed Larmore
> http://motivationovermethod.blogspot.com/
>

 

Hi - We have been running our daily dev standup for approximately 3 weeks now. We're struggling to find the right format to engage everyone. Initial feedback on these is poor, so we obviously have improvements to make. Currently we take each swimlane and each area of work and invite the devs and QA guys to comment, working from the right. It has improved since the beginning, but there are still a lot of blank faces, hands in pockets and feet shuffling.

We have a team of just over twenty. We are using an electronic board, projected onto a screen. Trials of physical standup boards prior to full adoption did not have the collaborative and swarming effects suggested. Participants just wanted to go electronic, physically moving tickets was not considered fun. But now we use Jira/Greenhopper there is not much of an improvement in engagement or enthusiasm.

Does anyone have any hints, tips or links that could help improve these standups? Help us get the message across that they as devs own it and that it is useful, rather than the current perception of 'a waste of time'.

Thanks
Ben

On Mon, Apr 23, 2012 at 11:51:23AM -0400, Peter Bell wrote:
> I'm a huge fan of physical kanban boards. I have a team where most of the
engineers are in a single physical location, but I do have a couple of key
engineers that are remote. I am using a physical kanban board, but want to
duplicate it electronically for two reasons. Firstly so the remote team members
can see the board and secondly so I can get useful metrics.
>
> Firstly:
> - Would you recommend an electronic board? If not, how would you handle:
> - Remote engineers updating the kanban board
> - Remote engineers seeing the status of the kanban board
> - I track and report on the metrics of working vs queued time, CFD's, cycle
time median and scatter, etc.
>
> Secondly, for those of you that *do* use e-kanban boards:
> - How do you keep it in sync with the physical board?
> - What app do you use and why?
>
> In particular I've been looking at:
> http://leankitkanban.com/
> http://kanbantool.com/
> http://toolsforagile.com/silvercatalyst/
> http://www.agilezen.com/

We have been using Trello. Although it's not a Kanban tool, it's slick
and polished and has an API in case you want to gather metrics or enforce
WIP limits etc.

--
Vlad Skvortsov
VP of Engineering, Echo
p: (650) 427-9184 | vss@... | Twitter: @wadcom

Hi Andrea:

With my wife we coached a team of teachers of a local primary school, as part of my wife's master thesis on educational management about lean thinking on schools. We used a very simple initial workflow (to do, doing, done) that now would be  self-managed and improved.

I'm also coaching teams from advertising agencies, starting from the same simple workflow and attemping to improve it through kaizen.

In both sutuations that strategy was based on the fact that there were not explicit value flows and part of the coaching goals is to define them incrementally.

Best Regards
Agustin

Software Technology

Gul Agha  agha@...

Rick Kazman  kazman@...

Agile and Lean minitrack co-chairs

Gabrielle Benefield                                                                  

Evolve Beyond

Evolve Beyond LLC  

gbenefield@...

Dan Greening, Ph.D

Evolve Beyond

dgreening@...

 

I'm a huge fan of physical kanban boards. I have a team where most of the engineers are in a single physical location, but I do have a couple of key engineers that are remote. I am using a physical kanban board, but want to duplicate it electronically for two reasons. Firstly so the remote team members can see the board and secondly so I can get useful metrics.

Firstly:

- Would you recommend an electronic board? If not, how would you handle:

- Remote engineers updating the kanban board

- Remote engineers seeing the status of the kanban board

- I track and report on the metrics of working vs queued time, CFD's, cycle time median and scatter, etc.

Secondly, for those of you that *do* use e-kanban boards:

- How do you keep it in sync with the physical board?

- What app do you use and why?

In particular I've been looking at:

http://leankitkanban.com/

http://kanbantool.com/

http://toolsforagile.com/silvercatalyst/

http://www.agilezen.com/

Am open to other suggestions. It'll be for a team of about 10 devs.

Any thoughts appreciated!

Best Wishes,.

Peter

Ed Wong and I are going to run a Lean-Agile-Systems Thinking conference in
Melbourne on July 27th. Its going to be grass roots, cheap as chips and loads of
fun.

Everyone is invited.

Tickets go one sale on Thursday. Under $50.

We are keen for some Kanban case studies or stories if any of you folks want to
contribute.

___
The idea behind this conference grew out of the local meetup communities wanting
to have a bigger and better meetup. It will be by practitioners and for
practitioners.

www.LASTConference.com
#Last_Conf

Lean Camp New England is a one day open space event led by Jim Benson, author of
Personal Kanban. It is an opportunity to share and learn about Lean and Kanban
in software development, IT operations and services, and other knowledge work
fields.

Lean Camp New England is an all day event at the World Trade Center Boston, on
May 13th (Sunday). Registration is open now at a cost of $300 - catering is
included. Register at http://lssc12.leanssc.org/

So far we have under 100 people registered for this event. I would have expected
a stronger turnout in Boston. I am hoping that the local audience has been
waiting until the last minute to commit. If you live in New England please reach
out to your network and encourage them to attend. This is a rare opportunity to
enjoy a regional 1-day open space in conjunction with a large international
conference - as a result a significant number of international experts will be
present and participating. Where else can you get direct coaching from the
experts for only $300?

SD Times has just published an introductory article on Kanban I wrote for them.
I have to thank Janice Linden-Reed for all the hard work she put in helping with
this.

http://www.sdtimes.com/link/36552

Thanks to everyone for replying, I will report back with news of successes and
failures from the different approaches. One of the developers led it themselves
this morning, we shall see how that goes.

Ben

--- In kanbandev@yahoogroups.com, Paula Sjöland <paula.sjoland1@...> wrote:
>
> I have mostly worked on scrum teams, but what I have felt most interesting is
when people actually update the group about what they have been doing, that is,
start with the people, not the tasks. If some tasks get skipped you probably
have too much on the board. We also make sure the board is updated before the
meeting.
>
> / Paula
>
> Skickat frĂĄn min iPod
>
> 23 apr 2012 kl. 09:08 skrev "tommo245" <tommo245@...>:
>
> > Hi - We have been running our daily dev standup for approximately 3 weeks
now. We're struggling to find the right format to engage everyone. Initial
feedback on these is poor, so we obviously have improvements to make. Currently
we take each swimlane and each area of work and invite the devs and QA guys to
comment, working from the right. It has improved since the beginning, but there
are still a lot of blank faces, hands in pockets and feet shuffling.
> >
> > We have a team of just over twenty. We are using an electronic board,
projected onto a screen. Trials of physical standup boards prior to full
adoption did not have the collaborative and swarming effects suggested.
Participants just wanted to go electronic, physically moving tickets was not
considered fun. But now we use Jira/Greenhopper there is not much of an
improvement in engagement or enthusiasm.
> >
> > Does anyone have any hints, tips or links that could help improve these
standups? Help us get the message across that they as devs own it and that it is
useful, rather than the current perception of 'a waste of time'.
> >
> > Thanks
> > Ben
> >
> >
>

As far as the Kanban community is concerned, is there an established name for
the (average) time spent by cards in one specific board column, i.e. time spent
in one step of the worflow per "task"?