Did the M&StL use "Yard Limit" signs? If so, what'd they look like?

Did they put "Whistle Posts" inside yard limits?

Clark Propst
Mason City Iowa

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Couple weekends ago we were in Milwaukee for Trainfest. Saturday morning we went
to the restaurant attached to our hotel for breakfast and low and behold there
sat Dennis Holmes!
Clark Propst
Mason City Iowa

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Please forgive me for riding your message - I have a new computer and have not
mastered how to send an e-mail.  Thank you.
Sad to report that F. V. (Butch) Uderman passed away at 5AM.
today.  Butch was the lineman out of Ft Dodge, starting in 1959.
He was very good at what he did, and kept things going.  He put up with serious
throat problems the last few years.




________________________________
From: rxensen <rxensen@...>
To: mstl@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sat, November 21, 2009 7:08:27 AM
Subject: [mstl] Griswold signal

 
You can find Mark's Griswold signals at this web address
http://www.google. com/search? client=safari& rls=en&q= mark's+model+railservic
e&ie=UTF- 8&oe=UTF- 8
Or you can google mark's model railservice
The price includes all motors, sound, and detection equipment.
The price is in line with the new crossing signals coming out from MTH
Ron Christensen







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Mark, Soph Marty took a photo of through time freight 20 at Mason City with
an REA express (car) right behind the units.
Clark Propst
Mason City Iowa

You can find Mark's Griswold signals at this web address
http://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=mark's+model+railservice&ie=\
UTF-8&oe=UTF-8
Or you can google mark's model railservice
The price includes all motors, sound, and detection equipment.
The price is in line with the new  crossing signals coming out from MTH
Ron Christensen

Clark's question about LCL and subsequent responses about REA and LCL handling
got me thinking about how express cars would be switched out of or in to
passenger trains. I would guess that the size of the station/facility, track
arrangement, availability of crew and equiptment, etc. would have a bearing on
the method, but my question is would the road power ever be used to make the
moves or was a switcher always used? What were the criteria involved? Does
anybody have various examples? Thank for your input.  Mark Feddersen

Thanks Ray,
Your color information has been added to the list.

Any "M&StL" MOW equipment numbered X928 or above was done by the C&NW.  Maybe a
better way to state this is that X928 and above were converted after the Nov. 1,
1960 C&NW takeover.

> X757: RAIL LOADER, 40' flat, black w/white lettering
> X844: MATERIAL, BOX, USRA DS box, boxcar red w/white ltrg
> X873: MATERIAL, BOX, 40' Fowler, Yellow with black ltrg
> X1010: BOX CAR, 40' Fowler, boxcar red with white ltrg
> X1200: BOX CAR, '44 AAR, green with yellow lettering
> X1216: BOX CAR, '44 AAR, boxcar red with white lettering

Above I added the uses of the cars Ray reported.  X1200 was the one I dropped
out of my original 13 cars.

Gene Green

"Griswold" has become a generic term referring to the rotating
stop-sign-equipped crossing signals produced by the Griswold Manufacturing
Co. Griswold Manufacturing was in business producing Crossing signals into
the early 1980's before they became Harmon Electronics, and now, Safetrans.

    We railfans/modellers tend to think of "Griswold" as the rotating stop
sign equipped crossing signals. And, most of what you modellers/railfans on
here are thinking of is a later version, or, possibly, an up-dated version
of the original developed in the 1920's. The earliest version used a
traffic-light-style warning light without the round backgrounds (est. 2"
diameter), the crossbucks read "RAILROAD CROSSING   LOOK OUT FOR THE CARS".
The crossbucks were lit with a separate hooded lamp. Stop signs were yellow
with black lettering and striping (I still recall a number of the yellow
stop signs on some newer Griswolds in my area weill into the late 1970's).

    Most common in many person's thinking were the later version developed
around 1944. It had the medium-sized red-lensed warning lights (est. 6"
diameter) with round backgrounds, reflectorized lettering on the crossbucks
and some had reflectorized STOP signs in either red or yellow backgrounds.

    There was an over-the-road version of this crossing signal that is quite
accurately reporoduced by N.J. International. It did not have the
flimsey-looking framing around the Stop sign, but a separate metal box of
substantial girth upon which the Stop sign rotated. The NJI model does not
have the rotating stop sign but in all other spec's it is very accurate.

    A gentleman in Sheboygan, Wis., markets the rotating stop sign Griswold
in HO Scale. They carry a hefty price but are worth it.

    Keith








----- Original Message -----
From: "Dan D" <danems@...>
To: <mstl@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, November 20, 2009 10:24 AM
Subject: Re: Griswold signal was: Re: [mstl] Re: Creameries-new photo


Isn't that a road crossing signal that has a built-in rotating stop sign
along with the flashing crossbucks? They are very common in Minnesota,
though I never saw one before moving here.

Dan

--- On Fri, 11/20/09, John <golden1014@...> wrote:


From: John <golden1014@...>
Subject: Griswold signal was: Re: [mstl] Re: Creameries-new photo
To: mstl@yahoogroups.com
Date: Friday, November 20, 2009, 8:10 AM






Hey guys, what is a Griswold signal again? I noticed the words "Griswold
Signal" on the Ackley track diagram. Got any photos?

Thanks!
John Golden

--- In mstl@yahoogroups. com, "Clark Propst" <cepropst@.. .> wrote:
>
> Good eye! I moved it there from it's usual spot at 15th St NE (Deckers
> entrance) just to see if someone would notice.
> No, the pair I have are static. The stop sign does turn by hand. Jason
> Klocke made them and gave them to me for Christmas last year. I'm hoping
> for
> 3-4 more sets this year....
> Clark Propst
> Mason City Iowa
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "cgw101c" <cgw101c@... >
> To: <mstl@yahoogroups. com>
> Sent: Wednesday, November 18, 2009 4:43 PM
> Subject: Re: [mstl] Re: Creameries-new photo
>
>
> > Nice. Does the Griswold work?
>











[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



------------------------------------

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10-4!



-----Original Message-----
From: Ray Breyer <rtbsvrr69@...>
To: mstl@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wed, Nov 18, 2009 6:56 pm
Subject: Re: [mstl] Re: C&NW USRA gondolas





Hi Ted,

Can't make it this year. Besides, I'm elbow-deep in a modeling article writeup
right now!~

Regards,
RAY

--- On Wed, 11/18/09, ICRR9@... <ICRR9@...> wrote:

> From: ICRR9@... <ICRR9@...>
> Subject: Re: [mstl] Re: C&NW USRA gondolas
> To: mstl@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Wednesday, November 18, 2009, 3:43 PM
>
> Hi Ray
>
> Thanks for the information. Are you going to be at Mendota?
> I'm planning on bring a couple of IC jewels with :)))
>
> Cheers
> Ted
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Ray Breyer <rtbsvrr69@...>
> To: mstl@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Mon, Nov 16, 2009 5:25 pm
> Subject: Re: [mstl] Re: C&NW USRA gondolas
>
>
>
>
> >>>Both the C&NW and the M&StL had USRA
> drop-bottom
> >>>gondolas as did many other railroads.
> >>>Some of the M&StL's USRA gondolas survived
> until
> >>>1948 when the last of them were scrapped. The
> M&StL
> >>>bought 125 used former C&NW USRA gondolas
> (through
> >>>Hyman-Michaels, as I recall) in 1942. The last
> of
> >>these used gons lasted until 1953.
> >>>I have always wondered why the C&NW gons
> would
> >>>last longer that the M&StL gons.
> >>>An article in the Railway Mechanical Engineer
> >>>magazine, September, 1937 on pages 412, 413
> & 414 gives
> >>>a thorough description of the C&NW's
> program of
> >>>rebuilding these gons. Part of the rebuilding
> involved
> >>>replacing the drop-bottom doors with a solid
> floor.
> >>>For anyone detailing the Intermountain USRA
> gons
> >>>numbered 27501 and above, they should not have
> drop-doors
> >>in the bottom.
> >>>Gene Green
>
> >Thanks for sharing. Now a modeling question. How would
> >you represent that solid floor on the model?
> >I ask as I have a M&St.L. gon waiting its turn at
> >assembly.
> >Ted Richardson
>
> Hi guys,
>
> Not so fast Ted! Leave the floors alone!!!
>
> Since I don't trust the press as far as I can throw it. I
> decided to check & see if I had any original source
> material that corroborated the RME article Gene quotes.
>
> I don't.
>
> I do have a bunch of original source material that
> contradicts it, however.
>
> The C&NW's 1951 freight car diagram book lists four
> number series for these types of gondolas:
> 114501-115499 (odd), ACF 1918
> 115501-116499 (odd), H&B 1918
> The diagram book goes on to say that SOME of these cars
> were rebuilt into solid bottom gons and renumbered into the
> 24501-26499 (odd) series.
> Two other car series were also listed:
> 85001-85499 (odd), Pullman 1923 (USRA clones)
> 90601-92221 (odd), GACC 1923 (USRA clones).
> Again, SOME of these cars were rebuilt into solid bottom
> gons, this time renumbered to 129501-130615.
>
> Checking the ORERs it looks like just about half of the
> USRA-type gons were rebuilt (not all of them!), according to
> the 1945 ORER quantities for each number series. By 1951 the
> car numbers had al plummeted, with only the clone rebuilds
> having any sort of large numbers (224 cars).
>
> Next, I checked the M&StL diagram books. The 1959 book
> still has the diagram pages for the USRA cars (the book's
> scanned from Gene's collection). The secondhand cars are
> listed as having "drop doors, 8-35 1/2 x 43 1/2". Checking
> the 1951 ORER listing, the M&StL describes these cars as
> "gon, wood side, tight ends, 8 drop doors, flat bottom, wood
> floor". Going back to the diagram book, the builder is
> listed as ACF 1918, making these cars part of the C&NW's
> 114501-115499 series of cars, and never extensively rebuilt
> (if at all).
>
> Finally, why did all of these cars fall off the roster in
> 1953? Simple: that was the year that K brakes were banned
> from interchange. These cars (al least the M&StL ones)
> were never upgraded to AB brakes.
>
> So DON'T DO ANYTHING TO THE FLOORS!!!! That is, unless you
> can find a photo or two that will make a liar out of me, the
> C&NW, and the M&StL. :-)
>
> Regards,
> Ray Breyer
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> =======================================
> M&StL Community email addresses:
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>   Subscribe:    mstl-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
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>
>







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Isn't that a road crossing signal that has a built-in rotating stop sign along
with the flashing crossbucks?  They are very common in Minnesota, though I
never saw one before moving here.
 
Dan

--- On Fri, 11/20/09, John <golden1014@...> wrote:


From: John <golden1014@...>
Subject: Griswold signal was: Re: [mstl] Re: Creameries-new photo
To: mstl@yahoogroups.com
Date: Friday, November 20, 2009, 8:10 AM


 



Hey guys, what is a Griswold signal again? I noticed the words "Griswold Signal"
on the Ackley track diagram. Got any photos?

Thanks!
John Golden

--- In mstl@yahoogroups. com, "Clark Propst" <cepropst@.. .> wrote:
>
> Good eye! I moved it there from it's usual spot at 15th St NE (Deckers
> entrance) just to see if someone would notice.
> No, the pair I have are static. The stop sign does turn by hand. Jason
> Klocke made them and gave them to me for Christmas last year. I'm hoping for
> 3-4 more sets this year....
> Clark Propst
> Mason City Iowa
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "cgw101c" <cgw101c@... >
> To: <mstl@yahoogroups. com>
> Sent: Wednesday, November 18, 2009 4:43 PM
> Subject: Re: [mstl] Re: Creameries-new photo
>
>
> > Nice. Does the Griswold work?
>











[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi Gene

It almost seems that if a color was in the spray gun, or even what was on hand
they used it. Though it's not my field wouldn't that have been a nightmare for
inventory, accounting . . .even the guys using the equipment. The money?

As a kid I used to think "wow" they, and others sure had a neat paint scheme for
everything, but those roads who did sure seemed to fail quickly. Yes, I know
that's simplistic, but it sure is coincidental.

Cheers
Ted R.

-----Original Message-----
From: Gene <bierglaeser@...>
To: mstl@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thu, Nov 19, 2009 6:55 pm
Subject: [mstl] Re: C&NW USRA gondolas




Ted,
Excellent question! Why didn't I think of that?

My MOW database only has colors for 13 pieces of equipment. One was eliminated
simply because it was a box car renumbered but not repainted. Twelve cars is
really too few - out of over 900 - to make any definitive statement.

Nonetheless, here's what I have. Can anyone else add color information to this
list?

X1.....Scale test car.......................black
X709...Office-Tool used as Bunk-Kitchen.....yellow w/black lettering
X793...Bunk-Kitchen-Tool for Extra gang.....dark green
X839...Bunk-Kitchen-Sleeper for Wrecker X-3.bright red w/black roof
X842...Block & tool box.....................bright red after 1956
X843...Material, box for extra gang.........box car red
X846...Kitchen-Dining for Moore's T&S gang..black w/yellow sides
X847...Tool car for wrecking outfit.........black w/yellow sides
X853...Snow Plow......................red blade & wood, black metal
X855...Rail & tie car for CL wreck outfit...black w/white lettering
X857...Kitchen-Diner-Bunk for Eastern Div...yellow w/black lettering
X865...Rubbish car (shower car)..........black car & tank, green box

Ya'll feel free to see a pattern there if you want.

I also sorted these cars by date converted to see if there was a pattern there
but I couldn't see one.

Gene Green

--- In mstl@yahoogroups.com, ICRR9@... wrote:
<snip>
>
> Would the colors desigante the cars use?
>
> regards
> Ted







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

John--

A Griswold signal is a  highway warning sign with cross buck and red flashing
lights.  They were made by Griswold.  Their unique quality is that they also
have a rotating, octagonal stop sign (just like you would find at any road
intersection) which would pivot 90 degrees when the signal was activated.  If
you look at Clark's recent photo (way to go Clark!) you will see a Griswold
signal in the inactivated mode.  If activated, the red lights alternate and the
stop sign turns 90 degrees to alert traffic to stop.  The MSL had a lot of them.

Al Muir


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi Gene, Ray

Gosh, considering the number of color schemes and numbering system the M&St.L.
used would anything less apply to the non revenue equipment?

Regards
Ted R.



-----Original Message-----
From: Ray Breyer <rtbsvrr69@...>
To: mstl@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thu, Nov 19, 2009 7:36 pm
Subject: Re: [mstl] Re: C&NW USRA gondolas




I'm game Gene! Here's my additions to your list:

X757: 40' flat, black with white lettering
X844: USRA DS box, boxcar red with white lettering
X873: 40' Fowler, Yellow with black lettering
X1010: 40' Fowler, boxcar red with white lettering
X1200: '44 AAR, green with yellow lettering
X1216: '44 AAR, boxcar red with white lettering

Regards,
Ray Breyer

--- On Thu, 11/19/09, Gene <bierglaeser@...> wrote:

> From: Gene <bierglaeser@...>
> Subject: [mstl] Re: C&NW USRA gondolas
> To: mstl@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Thursday, November 19, 2009, 6:55 PM
> Ted,
> Excellent question!  Why didn't I think of that?
>
> My MOW database only has colors for 13 pieces of
> equipment.  One was eliminated simply because it was
> a  box car renumbered but not repainted.  Twelve
> cars is really too few - out of over 900 - to make any
> definitive statement.
>
> Nonetheless, here's what I have.  Can anyone else add
> color information to this list?
>
> X1.....Scale test car.......................black
> X709...Office-Tool used as Bunk-Kitchen.....yellow w/black
> lettering
> X793...Bunk-Kitchen-Tool for Extra gang.....dark green
> X839...Bunk-Kitchen-Sleeper for Wrecker X-3.bright red
> w/black roof
> X842...Block & tool box.....................bright red
> after 1956
> X843...Material, box for extra gang.........box car red
> X846...Kitchen-Dining for Moore's T&S gang..black
> w/yellow sides
> X847...Tool car for wrecking outfit.........black w/yellow
> sides
> X853...Snow Plow......................red blade & wood,
> black metal
> X855...Rail & tie car for CL wreck outfit...black
> w/white lettering
> X857...Kitchen-Diner-Bunk for Eastern Div...yellow w/black
> lettering
> X865...Rubbish car (shower car)..........black car &
> tank, green box
>
> Ya'll feel free to see a pattern there if you want.
>
> I also sorted these cars by date converted to see if there
> was a pattern there but I couldn't see one.
>
> Gene Green
>
> --- In mstl@yahoogroups.com,
> ICRR9@... wrote:
> <snip>
> >
> > Would the colors desigante the cars use?
> >
> > regards
> > Ted
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> =======================================
> M&StL Community email addresses:
>   Post message: mstl@yahoogroups.com
>   Subscribe:    mstl-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
>   Unsubscribe:  mstl-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> =========================================
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>
> __HH__.__ __,----_ ---+ _I_
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> oOOOO=o\\Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>     mstl-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com
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>
>







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hey guys, what is a Griswold signal again? I noticed the words "Griswold Signal"
on the Ackley track diagram. Got any photos?

Thanks!
John Golden

--- In mstl@yahoogroups.com, "Clark Propst" <cepropst@...> wrote:
>
> Good eye! I moved it there from it's usual spot at 15th St NE (Deckers
> entrance) just to see if someone would notice.
> No, the pair I have are static. The stop sign does turn by hand. Jason
> Klocke made them and gave them to me for Christmas last year. I'm hoping for
> 3-4 more sets this year....
> Clark Propst
> Mason City Iowa
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "cgw101c" <cgw101c@...>
> To: <mstl@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, November 18, 2009 4:43 PM
> Subject: Re: [mstl] Re: Creameries-new photo
>
>
> > Nice. Does the Griswold work?
>

I'm game Gene! Here's my additions to your list:

X757: 40' flat, black with white lettering
X844: USRA DS box, boxcar red with white lettering
X873: 40' Fowler, Yellow with black lettering
X1010: 40' Fowler, boxcar red with white lettering
X1200: '44 AAR, green with yellow lettering
X1216: '44 AAR, boxcar red with white lettering

Regards,
Ray Breyer


--- On Thu, 11/19/09, Gene <bierglaeser@...> wrote:

> From: Gene <bierglaeser@...>
> Subject: [mstl] Re: C&NW USRA gondolas
> To: mstl@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Thursday, November 19, 2009, 6:55 PM
> Ted,
> Excellent question!  Why didn't I think of that?
>
> My MOW database only has colors for 13 pieces of
> equipment.  One was eliminated simply because it was
> a  box car renumbered but not repainted.  Twelve
> cars is really too few - out of over 900 - to make any
> definitive statement.
>
> Nonetheless, here's what I have.  Can anyone else add
> color information to this list?
>
> X1.....Scale test car.......................black
> X709...Office-Tool used as Bunk-Kitchen.....yellow w/black
> lettering
> X793...Bunk-Kitchen-Tool for Extra gang.....dark green
> X839...Bunk-Kitchen-Sleeper for Wrecker X-3.bright red
> w/black roof
> X842...Block & tool box.....................bright red
> after 1956
> X843...Material, box for extra gang.........box car red
> X846...Kitchen-Dining for Moore's T&S gang..black
> w/yellow sides
> X847...Tool car for wrecking outfit.........black w/yellow
> sides
> X853...Snow Plow......................red blade & wood,
> black metal
> X855...Rail & tie car for CL wreck outfit...black
> w/white lettering
> X857...Kitchen-Diner-Bunk for Eastern Div...yellow w/black
> lettering
> X865...Rubbish car (shower car)..........black car &
> tank, green box
>
> Ya'll feel free to see a pattern there if you want.
>
> I also sorted these cars by date converted to see if there
> was a pattern there but I couldn't see one.
>
> Gene Green
>
> --- In mstl@yahoogroups.com,
> ICRR9@... wrote:
> <snip>
> >
> > Would the colors desigante the cars use?
> >
> > regards
> > Ted
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> =======================================
> M&StL Community email addresses:
>   Post message: mstl@yahoogroups.com
>   Subscribe:    mstl-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
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>
> __HH__.__ __,----_ ---+ _I_
> |_M&StL_|~|__List_||__|____|<   
> oo-  -oo   ooo ooo 
> oOOOO=o\\Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>     mstl-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>

Ted,
Excellent question!  Why didn't I think of that?

My MOW database only has colors for 13 pieces of equipment.  One was eliminated
simply because it was a  box car renumbered but not repainted.  Twelve cars is
really too few - out of over 900 - to make any definitive statement.

Nonetheless, here's what I have.  Can anyone else add color information to this
list?

X1.....Scale test car.......................black
X709...Office-Tool used as Bunk-Kitchen.....yellow w/black lettering
X793...Bunk-Kitchen-Tool for Extra gang.....dark green
X839...Bunk-Kitchen-Sleeper for Wrecker X-3.bright red w/black roof
X842...Block & tool box.....................bright red after 1956
X843...Material, box for extra gang.........box car red
X846...Kitchen-Dining for Moore's T&S gang..black w/yellow sides
X847...Tool car for wrecking outfit.........black w/yellow sides
X853...Snow Plow......................red blade & wood, black metal
X855...Rail & tie car for CL wreck outfit...black w/white lettering
X857...Kitchen-Diner-Bunk for Eastern Div...yellow w/black lettering
X865...Rubbish car (shower car)..........black car & tank, green box

Ya'll feel free to see a pattern there if you want.

I also sorted these cars by date converted to see if there was a pattern there
but I couldn't see one.

Gene Green

--- In mstl@yahoogroups.com, ICRR9@... wrote:
<snip>
>
> Would the colors desigante the cars use?
>
> regards
> Ted

Group, have located an old wood boxcar, M&StL near Lehigh. Will post as we go.
Working on a way to either move it, if possible or take it apart to move for
restoration. Anyone in this bunch interested in helping, let me know. Mike
Heslop

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Gene. Thanks, but my aim is to mutative not inspire. Inspiration causes
daydreaming. Motivation gets things done.
Clark Propst
Mason City Iowa

Good eye! I moved it there from it's usual spot at 15th St NE (Deckers
entrance) just to see if someone would notice.
No, the pair I have are static. The stop sign does turn by hand. Jason
Klocke made them and gave them to me for Christmas last year. I'm hoping for
3-4 more sets this year....
Clark Propst
Mason City Iowa
----- Original Message -----
From: "cgw101c" <cgw101c@...>
To: <mstl@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, November 18, 2009 4:43 PM
Subject: Re: [mstl] Re: Creameries-new photo


> Nice. Does the Griswold work?

Clark,
Not only an excellent photo but, once again, excellent modeling.  You are an
inspiration to others.  Keep up the good work.
Gene

Hi Ted,

Can't make it this year. Besides, I'm elbow-deep in a modeling article writeup
right now!~

Regards,
RAY

--- On Wed, 11/18/09, ICRR9@... <ICRR9@...> wrote:

> From: ICRR9@... <ICRR9@...>
> Subject: Re: [mstl] Re: C&NW USRA gondolas
> To: mstl@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Wednesday, November 18, 2009, 3:43 PM
>
> Hi Ray
>
> Thanks for the information. Are you going to be at Mendota?
> I'm planning on bring a couple of IC jewels with :)))
>
> Cheers
> Ted
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Ray Breyer <rtbsvrr69@...>
> To: mstl@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Mon, Nov 16, 2009 5:25 pm
> Subject: Re: [mstl] Re: C&NW USRA gondolas
>
>
>
>
> >>>Both the C&NW and the M&StL had USRA
> drop-bottom
> >>>gondolas as did many other railroads.
> >>>Some of the M&StL's USRA gondolas survived
> until
> >>>1948 when the last of them were scrapped. The
> M&StL
> >>>bought 125 used former C&NW USRA gondolas
> (through
> >>>Hyman-Michaels, as I recall) in 1942. The last
> of
> >>these used gons lasted until 1953.
> >>>I have always wondered why the C&NW gons
> would
> >>>last longer that the M&StL gons.
> >>>An article in the Railway Mechanical Engineer
> >>>magazine, September, 1937 on pages 412, 413
> & 414 gives
> >>>a thorough description of the C&NW's
> program of
> >>>rebuilding these gons. Part of the rebuilding
> involved
> >>>replacing the drop-bottom doors with a solid
> floor.
> >>>For anyone detailing the Intermountain USRA
> gons
> >>>numbered 27501 and above, they should not have
> drop-doors
> >>in the bottom.
> >>>Gene Green
>
> >Thanks for sharing. Now a modeling question. How would
> >you represent that solid floor on the model?
> >I ask as I have a M&St.L. gon waiting its turn at
> >assembly.
> >Ted Richardson
>
> Hi guys,
>
> Not so fast Ted! Leave the floors alone!!!
>
> Since I don't trust the press as far as I can throw it. I
> decided to check & see if I had any original source
> material that corroborated the RME article Gene quotes.
>
> I don't.
>
> I do have a bunch of original source material that
> contradicts it, however.
>
> The C&NW's 1951 freight car diagram book lists four
> number series for these types of gondolas:
> 114501-115499 (odd), ACF 1918
> 115501-116499 (odd), H&B 1918
> The diagram book goes on to say that SOME of these cars
> were rebuilt into solid bottom gons and renumbered into the
> 24501-26499 (odd) series.
> Two other car series were also listed:
> 85001-85499 (odd), Pullman 1923 (USRA clones)
> 90601-92221 (odd), GACC 1923 (USRA clones).
> Again, SOME of these cars were rebuilt into solid bottom
> gons, this time renumbered to 129501-130615.
>
> Checking the ORERs it looks like just about half of the
> USRA-type gons were rebuilt (not all of them!), according to
> the 1945 ORER quantities for each number series. By 1951 the
> car numbers had al plummeted, with only the clone rebuilds
> having any sort of large numbers (224 cars).
>
> Next, I checked the M&StL diagram books. The 1959 book
> still has the diagram pages for the USRA cars (the book's
> scanned from Gene's collection). The secondhand cars are
> listed as having "drop doors, 8-35 1/2 x 43 1/2". Checking
> the 1951 ORER listing, the M&StL describes these cars as
> "gon, wood side, tight ends, 8 drop doors, flat bottom, wood
> floor". Going back to the diagram book, the builder is
> listed as ACF 1918, making these cars part of the C&NW's
> 114501-115499 series of cars, and never extensively rebuilt
> (if at all).
>
> Finally, why did all of these cars fall off the roster in
> 1953? Simple: that was the year that K brakes were banned
> from interchange. These cars (al least the M&StL ones)
> were never upgraded to AB brakes.
>
> So DON'T DO ANYTHING TO THE FLOORS!!!! That is, unless you
> can find a photo or two that will make a liar out of me, the
> C&NW, and the M&StL. :-)
>
> Regards,
> Ray Breyer
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> =======================================
> M&StL Community email addresses:
>   Post message: mstl@yahoogroups.com
>   Subscribe:    mstl-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
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>
>

Nice. Does the Griswold work?
   ----- Original Message -----
   From: rockroll50401
   To: mstl@yahoogroups.com
   Sent: Wednesday, November 18, 2009 1:02 PM
   Subject: [mstl] Re: Creameries-new photo




   Thanks Richard, I really like the architecture.
   Clark Propst

   --- In mstl@yahoogroups.com, Flyteleder@... wrote:
   >
   > I've added a new photo (of the Cass Clay creamery in Moorhead, MN) to the
Creameries photo file.
   >
   >
   > Richard Wehr
   > Ft. Apache, Arizona Territory
   >
   >
   > -----Original Message-----
   > From: vernwigfield <vwigfield@...>
   > To: mstl@yahoogroups.com
   > Sent: Tue, Nov 10, 2009 6:11 pm
   > Subject: [mstl] Re: Depot Photo
   >
   >
   >
   >
   >
   >
   >
   >
   >
   >
   >
   >
   >
   >
   >
   >
   >
   >
   >
   >
   >
   >
   >
   >
   >
   >
   >
   >
   >
   >
   >
   >
   >
   >
   >
   >
   > Rex called me a couple of weeks ago requesting some photos, Kilkenny being
one of them. Have found two of the three he requested, still missing Kikenny.
Vern Wigfield
   >
   >
   >
   > --- In mstl@yahoogroups.com, "Dennis Holmes" <deholmes@> wrote:
   >
   > >
   >
   > > I talked to Rex Beach last night and he is looking for one also.
   >
   > >
   >
   > > Dennis E
   >
   > >
   >
   > >
   >
   > >
   >
   > > ----- Original Message -----
   >
   > > From: vernwigfield
   >
   > > To: mstl@yahoogroups.com
   >
   > > Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2009 10:31 AM
   >
   > > Subject: [mstl] Depot Photo
   >
   > >
   >
   > >
   >
   > >
   >
   > > Does anyone on the web site have a photo of the depot at Kilkenny,,MN?
Thanks Vern Wigfield
   >
   > >
   >
   > >
   >
   > >
   >
   > >
   >
   > >
   >
   > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
   >
   > >
   >
   >
   >
   >
   >
   >
   >
   >
   >
   >
   >
   >
   >
   >
   >
   >
   >
   >
   >
   >
   >
   >
   >
   >
   >
   >
   >
   >
   >
   >
   >
   >
   >
   >
   >
   >
   > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
   >





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi Gene

Again' Thanks!

Cheers
Ted



-----Original Message-----
From: Gene <bierglaeser@...>
To: mstl@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sun, Nov 15, 2009 2:19 pm
Subject: [mstl] Re: C&NW USRA gondolas




How would I do it? With planks of the same width as the Intermountain floor laid
lengthwise. I would weather heavily and distress the planks some to indicate
getting bashed by a clam-shell bucket.
Gene Green

--- In mstl@yahoogroups.com, ICRR9@... wrote:
>
>
> Hi Gene
>
> Thanks for sharing. Now a modeling question. How would you represent that
solid floor on the model?
>
> I ask as I have a M&St.L. gon waiting its turn at assembly.
>
> Regards
> Ted Richardson
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Gene <bierglaeser@...>
> To: mstl@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Sun, Nov 15, 2009 9:40 am
> Subject: [mstl] C&NW USRA gondolas
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Both the C&NW and the M&StL had USRA drop-bottom gondolas as did many other
railroads.
>
> Some of the M&StL's USRA gondolas survived until 1948 when the last of them
were scrapped. The M&StL bought 125 used former C&NW USRA gondolas (through
Hyman-Michaels, as I recall) in 1942. The last of these used gons lasted until
1953.
>
> I have always wondered why the C&NW gons would last longer that the M&StL
gons. Did the M&StL not take care of their assests? Well, I may have found the
answer while thumbing through old magazines.
>
> An article in the Railway Mechanical Engineer magazine, September, 1937 on
pages 412, 413 & 414 gives a thorough description of the C&NW's program of
rebuilding these gons. Part of the rebuilding involved replacing the drop-bottom
doors with a solid floor.
>
> For anyone detailing the Intermountain USRA gons numbered 27501 and above,
they should not have drop-doors in the bottom.
>
> Gene Green
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi Gene

Thanks. By the way in the Morning Sun Book "Granger Country" with photos by a
Mr.Wilson authored by Jim Boyd there is an M&St.L photo showing the roundhouse
at Des Moines (?) with a "Yellow" bunk car and a "Green" tool car. This green
was also applied to the steel work on the turntable and operators house.

Would the colors desigante the cars use?

regards
Ted



-----Original Message-----
From: Gene <bierglaeser@...>
To: mstl@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sun, Nov 15, 2009 2:26 pm
Subject: [mstl] Re: C&NW USRA gondolas




Gons numbered 27501 and up are the former C&NW gons with solid floors. Remember,
odd numbers only.

M&StL gons were black with white stencilling (as were all hoppers except half of
the last order from ACF. The 32 from the C&O were some kind of red but no
specifics have been found so far.)

No photographic confirmation has turned up to substantiate the apocryphal rumors
of a green gon with yellow lettering.

Gene Green

--- In mstl@yahoogroups.com, ICRR9@... wrote:
>
>
> Hi Doug, Gene
>
> Would advise me of those numbers, and color? Thanks!
>
> Ted
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Douglas Harding <dharding@...>
> To: mstl@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Sun, Nov 15, 2009 11:52 am
> Subject: RE: [mstl] C&NW USRA gondolas
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Gene, great information. Like Ted, I have some IM M&StL gons, but the 12#s
when they were first offered. Now need to check the #'s
> to see if any should have a solid floor.
>
>
> Doug Harding
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

What's happening at Mendota? Mike Heslop.
   ----- Original Message -----
   From: ICRR9@...
   To: mstl@yahoogroups.com
   Sent: Wednesday, November 18, 2009 3:43 PM
   Subject: Re: [mstl] Re: C&NW USRA gondolas




   Hi Ray

   Thanks for the information. Are you going to be at Mendota? I'm planning on
bring a couple of IC jewels with :)))

   Cheers
   Ted

   -----Original Message-----
   From: Ray Breyer <rtbsvrr69@...>
   To: mstl@yahoogroups.com
   Sent: Mon, Nov 16, 2009 5:25 pm
   Subject: Re: [mstl] Re: C&NW USRA gondolas

   >>>Both the C&NW and the M&StL had USRA drop-bottom
   >>>gondolas as did many other railroads.
   >>>Some of the M&StL's USRA gondolas survived until
   >>>1948 when the last of them were scrapped. The M&StL
   >>>bought 125 used former C&NW USRA gondolas (through
   >>>Hyman-Michaels, as I recall) in 1942. The last of
   >>these used gons lasted until 1953.
   >>>I have always wondered why the C&NW gons would
   >>>last longer that the M&StL gons.
   >>>An article in the Railway Mechanical Engineer
   >>>magazine, September, 1937 on pages 412, 413 & 414 gives
   >>>a thorough description of the C&NW's program of
   >>>rebuilding these gons. Part of the rebuilding involved
   >>>replacing the drop-bottom doors with a solid floor.
   >>>For anyone detailing the Intermountain USRA gons
   >>>numbered 27501 and above, they should not have drop-doors
   >>in the bottom.
   >>>Gene Green

   >Thanks for sharing. Now a modeling question. How would
   >you represent that solid floor on the model?
   >I ask as I have a M&St.L. gon waiting its turn at
   >assembly.
   >Ted Richardson

   Hi guys,

   Not so fast Ted! Leave the floors alone!!!

   Since I don't trust the press as far as I can throw it. I decided to check &
see if I had any original source material that corroborated the RME article Gene
quotes.

   I don't.

   I do have a bunch of original source material that contradicts it, however.

   The C&NW's 1951 freight car diagram book lists four number series for these
types of gondolas:
   114501-115499 (odd), ACF 1918
   115501-116499 (odd), H&B 1918
   The diagram book goes on to say that SOME of these cars were rebuilt into
solid bottom gons and renumbered into the 24501-26499 (odd) series.
   Two other car series were also listed:
   85001-85499 (odd), Pullman 1923 (USRA clones)
   90601-92221 (odd), GACC 1923 (USRA clones).
   Again, SOME of these cars were rebuilt into solid bottom gons, this time
renumbered to 129501-130615.

   Checking the ORERs it looks like just about half of the USRA-type gons were
rebuilt (not all of them!), according to the 1945 ORER quantities for each
number series. By 1951 the car numbers had al plummeted, with only the clone
rebuilds having any sort of large numbers (224 cars).

   Next, I checked the M&StL diagram books. The 1959 book still has the diagram
pages for the USRA cars (the book's scanned from Gene's collection). The
secondhand cars are listed as having "drop doors, 8-35 1/2 x 43 1/2". Checking
the 1951 ORER listing, the M&StL describes these cars as "gon, wood side, tight
ends, 8 drop doors, flat bottom, wood floor". Going back to the diagram book,
the builder is listed as ACF 1918, making these cars part of the C&NW's
114501-115499 series of cars, and never extensively rebuilt (if at all).

   Finally, why did all of these cars fall off the roster in 1953? Simple: that
was the year that K brakes were banned from interchange. These cars (al least
the M&StL ones) were never upgraded to AB brakes.

   So DON'T DO ANYTHING TO THE FLOORS!!!! That is, unless you can find a photo or
two that will make a liar out of me, the C&NW, and the M&StL. :-)

   Regards,
   Ray Breyer

   [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi John

I don't know for sure, but I believe that Champ did. I'll double check my stash.

I purchased a decorated Intermountain kit which based upon the information
shared here may have to be renumbered. This may be of interest to you lacking
any decals.

Regards
Ted



-----Original Message-----
From: John <golden1014@...>
To: mstl@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Mon, Nov 16, 2009 3:35 pm
Subject: [mstl] Re: C&NW USRA gondolas




Brothers,

Are there suitable decals for making an HO-scale model?

Thanks!
John

John Golden
Bloomington, IN

--- In mstl@yahoogroups.com, ICRR9@... wrote:
>
>
> Hi Gene
>
> Thanks for sharing. Now a modeling question. How would you represent that
solid floor on the model?
>
> I ask as I have a M&St.L. gon waiting its turn at assembly.
>
> Regards
> Ted Richardson
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Gene <bierglaeser@...>
> To: mstl@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Sun, Nov 15, 2009 9:40 am
> Subject: [mstl] C&NW USRA gondolas
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Both the C&NW and the M&StL had USRA drop-bottom gondolas as did many other
railroads.
>
> Some of the M&StL's USRA gondolas survived until 1948 when the last of them
were scrapped. The M&StL bought 125 used former C&NW USRA gondolas (through
Hyman-Michaels, as I recall) in 1942. The last of these used gons lasted until
1953.
>
> I have always wondered why the C&NW gons would last longer that the M&StL
gons. Did the M&StL not take care of their assests? Well, I may have found the
answer while thumbing through old magazines.
>
> An article in the Railway Mechanical Engineer magazine, September, 1937 on
pages 412, 413 & 414 gives a thorough description of the C&NW's program of
rebuilding these gons. Part of the rebuilding involved replacing the drop-bottom
doors with a solid floor.
>
> For anyone detailing the Intermountain USRA gons numbered 27501 and above,
they should not have drop-doors in the bottom.
>
> Gene Green
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi Ray

Thanks for the information. Are you going to be at Mendota? I'm planning on
bring a couple of IC jewels with :)))

Cheers
Ted



-----Original Message-----
From: Ray Breyer <rtbsvrr69@...>
To: mstl@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Mon, Nov 16, 2009 5:25 pm
Subject: Re: [mstl] Re: C&NW USRA gondolas




>>>Both the C&NW and the M&StL had USRA drop-bottom
>>>gondolas as did many other railroads.
>>>Some of the M&StL's USRA gondolas survived until
>>>1948 when the last of them were scrapped. The M&StL
>>>bought 125 used former C&NW USRA gondolas (through
>>>Hyman-Michaels, as I recall) in 1942. The last of
>>these used gons lasted until 1953.
>>>I have always wondered why the C&NW gons would
>>>last longer that the M&StL gons.
>>>An article in the Railway Mechanical Engineer
>>>magazine, September, 1937 on pages 412, 413 & 414 gives
>>>a thorough description of the C&NW's program of
>>>rebuilding these gons. Part of the rebuilding involved
>>>replacing the drop-bottom doors with a solid floor.
>>>For anyone detailing the Intermountain USRA gons
>>>numbered 27501 and above, they should not have drop-doors
>>in the bottom.
>>>Gene Green

>Thanks for sharing. Now a modeling question. How would
>you represent that solid floor on the model?
>I ask as I have a M&St.L. gon waiting its turn at
>assembly.
>Ted Richardson

Hi guys,

Not so fast Ted! Leave the floors alone!!!

Since I don't trust the press as far as I can throw it. I decided to check & see
if I had any original source material that corroborated the RME article Gene
quotes.

I don't.

I do have a bunch of original source material that contradicts it, however.

The C&NW's 1951 freight car diagram book lists four number series for these
types of gondolas:
114501-115499 (odd), ACF 1918
115501-116499 (odd), H&B 1918
The diagram book goes on to say that SOME of these cars were rebuilt into solid
bottom gons and renumbered into the 24501-26499 (odd) series.
Two other car series were also listed:
85001-85499 (odd), Pullman 1923 (USRA clones)
90601-92221 (odd), GACC 1923 (USRA clones).
Again, SOME of these cars were rebuilt into solid bottom gons, this time
renumbered to 129501-130615.

Checking the ORERs it looks like just about half of the USRA-type gons were
rebuilt (not all of them!), according to the 1945 ORER quantities for each
number series. By 1951 the car numbers had al plummeted, with only the clone
rebuilds having any sort of large numbers (224 cars).

Next, I checked the M&StL diagram books. The 1959 book still has the diagram
pages for the USRA cars (the book's scanned from Gene's collection). The
secondhand cars are listed as having "drop doors, 8-35 1/2 x 43 1/2". Checking
the 1951 ORER listing, the M&StL describes these cars as "gon, wood side, tight
ends, 8 drop doors, flat bottom, wood floor". Going back to the diagram book,
the builder is listed as ACF 1918, making these cars part of the C&NW's
114501-115499 series of cars, and never extensively rebuilt (if at all).

Finally, why did all of these cars fall off the roster in 1953? Simple: that was
the year that K brakes were banned from interchange. These cars (al least the
M&StL ones) were never upgraded to AB brakes.

So DON'T DO ANYTHING TO THE FLOORS!!!! That is, unless you can find a photo or
two that will make a liar out of me, the C&NW, and the M&StL. :-)

Regards,
Ray Breyer







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Thanks Richard, I really like the architecture.
Clark Propst

--- In mstl@yahoogroups.com, Flyteleder@... wrote:
>
> I've added a new photo (of the Cass Clay creamery in Moorhead, MN) to the
Creameries photo file.
>
>
> Richard Wehr
> Ft. Apache, Arizona Territory
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: vernwigfield <vwigfield@...>
> To: mstl@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Tue, Nov 10, 2009 6:11 pm
> Subject: [mstl] Re: Depot Photo
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Rex called me a couple of weeks ago requesting some photos, Kilkenny being one
of them.   Have found two of the three he requested, still missing Kikenny.   
Vern Wigfield
>
>
>
> --- In mstl@yahoogroups.com, "Dennis Holmes" <deholmes@> wrote:
>
> >
>
> > I talked to Rex Beach last night and he is looking for one also.
>
> >
>
> > Dennis E
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >   ----- Original Message -----
>
> >   From: vernwigfield
>
> >   To: mstl@yahoogroups.com
>
> >   Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2009 10:31 AM
>
> >   Subject: [mstl] Depot Photo
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >   Does anyone on the web site have a photo of the depot at Kilkenny,,MN?
Thanks Vern Wigfield
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Hello,

This email message is a notification to let you know that
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the mstl
group.

   File        : /MC layout/DSC00609.JPG
   Uploaded by : rockroll50401 <cepropst@...>
   Description : LCL trailer that the Mason City Freighthouse

You can access this file at the URL:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/mstl/files/MC%20layout/DSC00609.JPG

To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit:
http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/groups/original/general.htmlfiles

Regards,

rockroll50401 <cepropst@...>

Great stuff Gene! Plenty of modeling tidbits included.

I like how he called 545 an engine, as in one.

There are guys with collections that won't share them with the 'unwashed'.
Thanks for not being one of those "It's mine and you can't have it" types.

Clark Propst
Mason City Iowa