Hi Todd,
          I'll carve up your message in reply.

Todd Robinson wrote:
> Gareth,
>
> Thanks for your email.  After reading it, and
> re-reading my initial post, I realized that I
> mis-stated what my goal is for a cooperative.
>
> I wrote: "I want the business to be set up the way I
> want it set up, from the beginning."
>
> What I meant to say is something like this:  "I want
> to be involved in a business from the start, and I
> want the business to be set up and run in a thorough,
> organized, and reasonably process-oriented way.  I
> want important issues to be addressed up front that
> _can_ be put off in the short-term, but that are
> valuable long-term.  I want to help create and sustain
> a culture of excellent communication, proper
> expectation-setting, and explicitly valuing of
> differences of ideas or people."

This is a  reasonable sounding starting point for discussion with other
cooperators.

>
> My initial statement was a little extreme-sounding.
> That comes from trying to transmit information
> concisely but quickly -- Mark Twain once wrote to a
> friend at the end of a very long letter [I'm
> paraphrasing], "I apologize for the extreme length of
> this letter, but I did not have time to write a
> shorter one."

I am glad you mention Mark Twain. It brings a sense of proportion into
another wise sensible discussion. How about that?
Or perhaps <I made some extreme remarks just to make sure you don't
listen.> not so good.

In addition, I have been with a company
> for 5 1/2 years where I started above my boss's
> garage, but we are now at 12 employees and growing at
> 50% a year, and I never felt like things were handled
> in a way that really works for me (although I like a
> respect my co-workers).

That is more like it!

>
> Does that explain my situation better?  Personally, I
> do think it is reasonable and appropriate to
> articulate what kind of an organization one is willing
> to be involved in, and it is important to address
> these issues up front with others who one might work
> with.
>
> In my opinion, my ideal type of organization is very
> cooperative, and I think most people would eventually
> thrive in such an organization, but it has fairly high
> expectations of people and their willingness and
> ability to work together in a positive and open way.
> I guess if I entered into lengthy discussions with
> someone, they might end up feeling that certain
> elements of cooperation are insufficient in the type
> of organization I propose.

May I forward this to Total Coverage of Southampton,England or are you
familiar with their work already? They may be interested in what you
have to say?  They also run coopnet a mail group, many of whose members
are very knowledgeable about Coop formation and ethics, not just in UK.
you may get some replies from others , most of whom know a good deal
more about these aspects below than I do.
Great to hear your enthusiasm.

I can't find the exact subscribe address for the moment but it will get
to you I expect. I think it is Co-opnet-on@...

Best wishes    Gar

>
> Here are some notes I just made today about the
> communication, process, and expectation-setting
> aspects of a cooperative business (or other
> non-hierarchical organization, such as a
> consensus-based non-profit that is not technically a
> cooperative corporation).  I'd love to hear any
> feedback that anyone has:
>
>
>  > Human resources and organizational-process issues
> are extremely important to a successful organization
> that is a pleasure to work for
>
>  > Expectations should be set up front to every member
> about what the organization's mission and practices
> are
>
>  > There should be ongoing communication and evaluation
> in a non-threatening, constructive manner
>
>  > There should be a clear message that everyone is
> learning and growing all the time
>
>  > Differences in employee motivations, values,
> preferences, styles of work, etc. should be discussed,
> established, and appreciated -- the goal is synthesis,
> but everyone should acknowledge when synthesis of
> certain differences doesn't work
>
>  > A limited version of all this should take place with
> customers, as is possible given the relationship with
> the customers
>
>  > There should be a position at the organization
> called "Director, Communication and Processes" (or
> "Administrator, Communication and Processes" or
> something else that is more appropriate for the
> coop/consensus setup); this person is responsible for
> championing the communication/process goals of the
> organization, and for working with all members to
> ensure that the goals permeate the day-to-day workings
> of the organization
>
>  > It is important to acknowledge that there will never
> be enough time to do everything the absolute right
> way, but it should be an ideal that all employees keep
> in mind and strive for
>
>  > As part of the above, processes and communication
> issues should be prioritized; it is critical to find
> time for the core components, whereas non-core but
> important components can be explicitly postponed but
> then worked into the organization when the time is
> right
>
>  > All processes should be documented and referred to
> in a thorough fashion; everyone needs to appreciate
> the value that this brings to the organization
>
>
> Regards,
> Todd
>
>
>
> --- gar <gar@...> wrote:
>  > Hi Todd,
>  >          I can't work out what name I have got on
>  > <<programmercoops>> so
>  > I just go on reading 'em!
>  >
>  >           Possibly in answer to your thoughts below,
>  > there are a good
>  > many sole trader coops about, and I did think of the
>  > same with my
>  > livestock bees until I realised that it is much
>  > better to join an
>  > already existing coop where there are real people
>  > already working
>  > together.
>  >
>  > I am an area coop  elected representative in the UK,
>  > and on the CDA ...
>  > ( coop development association) and I come across a
>  > number of sole
>  > traders who remain just that as coop organisation. I
>  > suppose that it is
>  > the desire to <<start something, make one's mark>>
>  > or something like that.
>  >
>  > Your style of language below, if you will allow me
>  > to say so,
>  > suggests that you only want to do it your own way
>  > anyway.... so there
>  > would not be much point in cooperating?
>  >
>  > Cooperative business is where the sum of the whole
>  > is greater than the
>  > sum of the parts through cooperation; what you seem
>  > to want
>  > is one of the parts to dominate all the others right
>  > from the beginning.
>  > I don't think that is really cooperation.
>  >
>  > Perhaps you are only talking tongue in cheek, and
>  > teasing out a dialogue
>  > with me. Good luck with your coop campaigns... join
>  > in with some others
>  > to do so!!
>  >
>  > Regards,
>  >
>  > Gareth
>  >
>  >
>  > Todd Robinson wrote:
>  > > I have been a developer for 5-6 years, working
>  > with
>  > > mostly Microsoft technologies to produce software
>  > that
>  > > helps manage clinical research.  I recently
>  > decided it
>  > > was time to make a change and start a new
>  > business,
>  > > and I will begin that on 11/1.  I want the
>  > business to
>  > > be set up the way I want it set up, from the
>  > > beginning.  I will begin by myself, seeking
>  > clients in
>  > > clinnical research for custom programming and
>  > database
>  > > projects.  However, I would like to expand beyond
>  > > clinical research and into other IT and business
>  > > services besides programming.  And, most
>  > importantly,
>  > > I would like to find other like-minded individuals
>  > to
>  > > form a cooperative programming, IT, and business
>  > > services company.  Long-term, I'd like my clients
>  > to
>  > > be primarily nonprofits and alternative
>  > businesses;
>  > > short-term, in order to generate sufficient
>  > revenue
>  > > and replace my income, I'm starting with more
>  > > mainstream clients.
>  > >
>  > > Todd Robinson
>  > > Portland, OR
>  > > toddsrobinson@...
>  > >
>  > >
>  > >
>  >
>

Gareth,

Thanks for your email.  After reading it, and
re-reading my initial post, I realized that I
mis-stated what my goal is for a cooperative.

I wrote: "I want the business to be set up the way I
want it set up, from the beginning."

What I meant to say is something like this:  "I want
to be involved in a business from the start, and I
want the business to be set up and run in a thorough,
organized, and reasonably process-oriented way.  I
want important issues to be addressed up front that
_can_ be put off in the short-term, but that are
valuable long-term.  I want to help create and sustain
a culture of excellent communication, proper
expectation-setting, and explicitly valuing of
differences of ideas or people."

My initial statement was a little extreme-sounding.
That comes from trying to transmit information
concisely but quickly -- Mark Twain once wrote to a
friend at the end of a very long letter [I'm
paraphrasing], "I apologize for the extreme length of
this letter, but I did not have time to write a
shorter one."  In addition, I have been with a company
for 5 1/2 years where I started above my boss's
garage, but we are now at 12 employees and growing at
50% a year, and I never felt like things were handled
in a way that really works for me (although I like a
respect my co-workers).

Does that explain my situation better?  Personally, I
do think it is reasonable and appropriate to
articulate what kind of an organization one is willing
to be involved in, and it is important to address
these issues up front with others who one might work
with.

In my opinion, my ideal type of organization is very
cooperative, and I think most people would eventually
thrive in such an organization, but it has fairly high
expectations of people and their willingness and
ability to work together in a positive and open way.
I guess if I entered into lengthy discussions with
someone, they might end up feeling that certain
elements of cooperation are insufficient in the type
of organization I propose.

Here are some notes I just made today about the
communication, process, and expectation-setting
aspects of a cooperative business (or other
non-hierarchical organization, such as a
consensus-based non-profit that is not technically a
cooperative corporation).  I'd love to hear any
feedback that anyone has:


> Human resources and organizational-process issues
are extremely important to a successful organization
that is a pleasure to work for

> Expectations should be set up front to every member
about what the organization's mission and practices
are

> There should be ongoing communication and evaluation
in a non-threatening, constructive manner

> There should be a clear message that everyone is
learning and growing all the time

> Differences in employee motivations, values,
preferences, styles of work, etc. should be discussed,
established, and appreciated -- the goal is synthesis,
but everyone should acknowledge when synthesis of
certain differences doesn't work

> A limited version of all this should take place with
customers, as is possible given the relationship with
the customers

> There should be a position at the organization
called "Director, Communication and Processes" (or
"Administrator, Communication and Processes" or
something else that is more appropriate for the
coop/consensus setup); this person is responsible for
championing the communication/process goals of the
organization, and for working with all members to
ensure that the goals permeate the day-to-day workings
of the organization

> It is important to acknowledge that there will never
be enough time to do everything the absolute right
way, but it should be an ideal that all employees keep
in mind and strive for

> As part of the above, processes and communication
issues should be prioritized; it is critical to find
time for the core components, whereas non-core but
important components can be explicitly postponed but
then worked into the organization when the time is
right

> All processes should be documented and referred to
in a thorough fashion; everyone needs to appreciate
the value that this brings to the organization


Regards,
Todd



--- gar <gar@...> wrote:
> Hi Todd,
>          I can't work out what name I have got on
> <<programmercoops>> so
> I just go on reading 'em!
>
>           Possibly in answer to your thoughts below,
> there are a good
> many sole trader coops about, and I did think of the
> same with my
> livestock bees until I realised that it is much
> better to join an
> already existing coop where there are real people
> already working
> together.
>
> I am an area coop  elected representative in the UK,
> and on the CDA ...
> ( coop development association) and I come across a
> number of sole
> traders who remain just that as coop organisation. I
> suppose that it is
> the desire to <<start something, make one's mark>>
> or something like that.
>
> Your style of language below, if you will allow me
> to say so,
> suggests that you only want to do it your own way
> anyway.... so there
> would not be much point in cooperating?
>
> Cooperative business is where the sum of the whole
> is greater than the
> sum of the parts through cooperation; what you seem
> to want
> is one of the parts to dominate all the others right
> from the beginning.
> I don't think that is really cooperation.
>
> Perhaps you are only talking tongue in cheek, and
> teasing out a dialogue
> with me. Good luck with your coop campaigns... join
> in with some others
> to do so!!
>
> Regards,
>
> Gareth
>
>
> Todd Robinson wrote:
> > I have been a developer for 5-6 years, working
> with
> > mostly Microsoft technologies to produce software
> that
> > helps manage clinical research.  I recently
> decided it
> > was time to make a change and start a new
> business,
> > and I will begin that on 11/1.  I want the
> business to
> > be set up the way I want it set up, from the
> > beginning.  I will begin by myself, seeking
> clients in
> > clinnical research for custom programming and
> database
> > projects.  However, I would like to expand beyond
> > clinical research and into other IT and business
> > services besides programming.  And, most
> importantly,
> > I would like to find other like-minded individuals
> to
> > form a cooperative programming, IT, and business
> > services company.  Long-term, I'd like my clients
> to
> > be primarily nonprofits and alternative
> businesses;
> > short-term, in order to generate sufficient
> revenue
> > and replace my income, I'm starting with more
> > mainstream clients.
> >
> > Todd Robinson
> > Portland, OR
> > toddsrobinson@...
> >
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> > ADVERTISEMENT
> > click here
> >
>
<http://rd.yahoo.com/M=194081.3551198.4824677.1261774/D=egroupweb/S=1705000236:H\
M/A=1663535/R=0/SIG=11ps6rfef/*http://www.ediets.com/start.cfm?code=30504&media=\
atkins>
> >
> >
> > Thank you for using this group. Remember, you can
> read archived
> > messages, change your settings, unsubscribe, or
> whatever by visiting the
> > group URL at
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/programmercoops or
> you can unsubscribe by
> > emailing
> > ProgrammerCoOps-UnSubscribe@YahooGroups.com -
> thank you.
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
> Terms of Service
> > <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
>
>
>

Hi Todd,
          I can't work out what name I have got on <<programmercoops>> so
I just go on reading 'em!

           Possibly in answer to your thoughts below, there are a good
many sole trader coops about, and I did think of the same with my
livestock bees until I realised that it is much better to join an
already existing coop where there are real people already working
together.

I am an area coop  elected representative in the UK, and on the CDA ...
( coop development association) and I come across a number of sole
traders who remain just that as coop organisation. I suppose that it is
the desire to <<start something, make one's mark>> or something like that.

Your style of language below, if you will allow me to say so,
suggests that you only want to do it your own way anyway.... so there
would not be much point in cooperating?

Cooperative business is where the sum of the whole is greater than the
sum of the parts through cooperation; what you seem to want
is one of the parts to dominate all the others right from the beginning.
I don't think that is really cooperation.

Perhaps you are only talking tongue in cheek, and teasing out a dialogue
with me. Good luck with your coop campaigns... join in with some others
to do so!!

Regards,

Gareth


Todd Robinson wrote:
> I have been a developer for 5-6 years, working with
> mostly Microsoft technologies to produce software that
> helps manage clinical research.  I recently decided it
> was time to make a change and start a new business,
> and I will begin that on 11/1.  I want the business to
> be set up the way I want it set up, from the
> beginning.  I will begin by myself, seeking clients in
> clinnical research for custom programming and database
> projects.  However, I would like to expand beyond
> clinical research and into other IT and business
> services besides programming.  And, most importantly,
> I would like to find other like-minded individuals to
> form a cooperative programming, IT, and business
> services company.  Long-term, I'd like my clients to
> be primarily nonprofits and alternative businesses;
> short-term, in order to generate sufficient revenue
> and replace my income, I'm starting with more
> mainstream clients.
>
> Todd Robinson
> Portland, OR
> toddsrobinson@...
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> ADVERTISEMENT
> click here
>
<http://rd.yahoo.com/M=194081.3551198.4824677.1261774/D=egroupweb/S=1705000236:H\
M/A=1663535/R=0/SIG=11ps6rfef/*http://www.ediets.com/start.cfm?code=30504&media=\
atkins>
>
>
> Thank you for using this group. Remember, you can read archived
> messages, change your settings, unsubscribe, or whatever by visiting the
> group URL at
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/programmercoops or you can unsubscribe by
> emailing
> ProgrammerCoOps-UnSubscribe@YahooGroups.com - thank you.
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service
> <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.

I have been a developer for 5-6 years, working with
mostly Microsoft technologies to produce software that
helps manage clinical research.  I recently decided it
was time to make a change and start a new business,
and I will begin that on 11/1.  I want the business to
be set up the way I want it set up, from the
beginning.  I will begin by myself, seeking clients in
clinnical research for custom programming and database
projects.  However, I would like to expand beyond
clinical research and into other IT and business
services besides programming.  And, most importantly,
I would like to find other like-minded individuals to
form a cooperative programming, IT, and business
services company.  Long-term, I'd like my clients to
be primarily nonprofits and alternative businesses;
short-term, in order to generate sufficient revenue
and replace my income, I'm starting with more
mainstream clients.

Todd Robinson
Portland, OR
toddsrobinson@...

Some of you were interested in our group health insurance, we're in the final
stages of setting it up, and without the hassle of a PEO. Please answer our
survey (also shown below) at

  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RMPCP-Benefits/surveys?id=317052

to look at the rates and select the options you'd most likely want, so we can
narrow these down. Thanks.

If this message is unwanted, sorry, not our intent; there were some of you
that expressed interest.


Robert M. Pritchett - RMP Consulting Partners LLC - member ICCA
Quality means doing it right the first time - http://rmpcp.com
Tired of hearing "W-2 only"? Work the same contract on our 1099 instead!
Email Apply at our web site above for more info. Group benefits pending.
See http://www.keen.com/rmpcp for legal/tax issues facing consultants.
We are not lawyers/accountants and are not giving legal/tax advice.

.
----- Original Message -----
From: <RMPCP-Benefits@yahoogroups.com>
To: <RMPCP-Benefits@yahoogroups.com>;
Sent: Saturday, July 19, 2003 02:54 AM
Subject: [RMPCP-Benefits] New poll for RMPCP-Benefits



Enter your vote today!  A new poll has been created for the
RMPCP-Benefits group:

OK, this may be the final poll. EMAIL
your answers if you have trouble using
the Poll link. If you don't answer, you
may miss out. Select all that apply
except as otherwise instructed. We have
new quotes for selected plans, the
prices are close but about $40/month
more for the "employee" because we
selected 24 hour coverage (see later
question to waive this). See the info
in the Files section but the quotes
here are more current. Of the following
6 plans, select either your 1st choice;
1st and 2nd; or 1st, 2nd, and 3rd; as
you prefer.

   o Plan 441 with $250 ded., 90%/70%, Single $350, Couple $674, Single w/kids
$689, Family $1013.
   o Plan 442 with $500 ded., 90%/70%, Single $332, Couple $639, Single w/kids
$648, Family $955.
   o Plan 443 with $1000 ded., 90%/70%, Single $311, Couple $599, Single w/kids
$605, Family $893.
   o Plan 445 with $250 ded., 80%/60%, Single $313, Couple $603, Single w/kids
$612, Family $902.
   o Plan 446 with $500 ded., 80%/60%, Single $298, Couple $574, Single w/kids
$579, Family $855.
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$544, Family $804.
   o Select this option if you do NOT want 24 hour coverage, which means that
if you're injured while working, you may NOT be covered. This will save you
about $40/month on premiums. Note: Worker's Comp. may not apply to or cover
us.
   o Select this option if you DO want 24 hour coverage.
   o Select this option if you DO want pregnancy coverage - this will add about
$50/month to your premium if applicable.
   o Select this option if you do NOT want pregnancy coverage.
   o Select this option if you want only the MINimum $15K life insurance for
$4.65/month.
   o Select this option if you want the MAXimum $75K life insurance for
$23.25/month.
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$26.30/month.
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work per person, $100 deductible - Single $31, Couple $62, Single w/ kids $70,
Family $101.
   o Select this option if you do NOT want dental.
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may not be feasible but please email details. We plan to add optical, LTD,
accident, and other coverages later.


To vote, please visit the following web page:

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Note: Please do not reply to this message. Poll votes are
not collected via email. To vote, you must go to the Yahoo! Groups
web site listed above.

Thanks!


*** We are no longer using a PEO, all benefits are now direct ***
*** The more participation we get, the better our benefits will be ***

Thanks for using our RMPCP-Benefits group. This is for RMPCP members and
applicants who are using or interested in our benefits. See the group site at
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and to make sure you get all your questions answered. Thank you.

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Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Did I forget to mention (in case anyone's interested) that we're starting a
group health plan in our own consultants' co-op? Our structure is flexible
enough to have corporate/co-op/org. members as well as individual members, so
this might be a good way for our groups to work together, as well as for some
of you to get decent insurance. Naturally, there needs to be some interest in
doing more together than just insurance (we have to still be a real group),
but if anyone's interested, see
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RMPCP-Benefits for more info.

If any of you consider this spam, I apologize, but I figure it could be useful
to many of you and your groups.


Robert M. Pritchett - RMP Consulting Partners LLC - member ICCA
Quality means doing it right the first time - http://rmpcp.com
Tired of hearing "W-2 only"? Work the same contract on our 1099 instead!
Email Apply at our web site above for more info. Group benefits pending.
See http://www.keen.com/rmpcp for legal/tax issues facing consultants.
We are not lawyers/accountants and are not giving legal/tax advice.

Tom Chapin has a really good suggestion, if only it were
possible to implement effectively. As it is, we're spread all
over the continent (and sometimes beyond) and it's tough to stay
current on our own specialties without developing another.

But Tom has identified (if not explicitly) a major change from 2
and more years ago. In all 3 of my most recent full-time jobs, I
was hired to undertake a totally new technology -- Smalltalk by
HealthObjects Corporation, Forte by Albion International and
Siebel by IBM Global Services. In those days (up to summer
2000), companies looked at talent and knowledge and undertook at
least minimal training to get guys into the field.

Today it's not enough to know Smalltalk, Forte or Siebel -- it
has to be the latest exact version with the exact same modules
or no one responds to applications.

Furthermore, with the complexity and expense of these n-tier
technologies, there's no way to maintain skills outside the job
or engagement, because no one can set up a Forte or Siebel
environment in which to practice and maintain/improve
capacities.

The result is that America's human resources in IT fields is
becoming obsolete and unemployable at a great rate.

I have no good answer to all this, but if we were to organize a
corp of experienced consultants who could team up to provide
companies with these technologies installed the benefit our
general expertise in partial exchange for training opportunities
on their systems, maybe we could bring costs low enough for
companies, and training opportunities high enough for ourselves,
to bridge the gap between us.

As it is, all the jobs that keep knowledge levels current are
going to India and too many of us are on unemployment (or even
worse, past all UI benefits). Keep this up and India will be
rich and the U.DS.A. will be a poor, third-world country.

Sid Bursten
Gray Matter Consultants LLC


--- "Robert M. Pritchett" <EGroups@...> wrote to Tom
Chapin :
> Excellent points, so I approved your membership. I'll forward
> your comments
> here since it looks like you wouldn't mind (I hope) and they
> are very much on
> topic here. And you're right, this place could use more
> discussion, which is
> why I recommended it on Open IT. I hope to make my web site
> more informative
> in this area (along with other changes I badly need to make)
> and I'm sure that
> others here also have helpful ideas.
>
> For the rest of the group here, you might want to check
> http://pub21.ezboard.com/bopenitforum where there are lots of
> good discussions
> along these lines. I think Doug has brought a lot of traffic
> here with his
> contributions there, and I'm happy to do the same and vice
> versa.
>
>
> Robert M. Pritchett - RMP Consulting Partners LLC - member
> ICCA
> Quality means doing it right the first time - http://rmpcp.com
> Our web host is still working on our email duplication
> problem.
> Tired of hearing "W-2 only"? Work the same contract on our
> 1099 instead!
> Email Apply at our web site above for more info. Group
> benefits pending.
> See http://www.keen.com/rmpcp for legal/tax issues facing
> consultants.
> We are not lawyers/accountants and are not giving legal/tax
> advice.
>
> .
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Tom Chapin
> To: programmercoops Moderator
> <programmercoops-owner@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Friday, June 27, 2003 01:01 PM
> Subject: Re: File - 1-Welcome.txt
>
>
> I saw this place mentioned in Open IT Forum.
>
> As the Fortune 500 takes a powder and sends all our jobs to
> India, looks
> like we need an alternative plan.  Leaving IT won't help
> because they can
> offshore other careers faster than we can learn them.
>
> So I'm thinking we need to go back to basics.  Get small
> groups of us
> together, cross-train enough to understand how to bring up
> small businesses
> from scratch (using open source and similar minimal-cost
> solutions), and
> then specialize enough to cover all bases and give our own
> individuality
> some free rein.   (All this will require us learning how to be
> businesses
> by bringing up ourselves from scratch).
>
> And then try to be ready to move by the time Microsoft uses
> its new
> licensing schemes to force small businesses to go open source
> or go
> bankrupt.
>
> To me that looks like some form of programmer (and general
> small business)
> coops.  Which is totally new to me, cuz all my background is
> in Fortune 5.
> So I'm looking for ideas, since I would see groups such as
> this one as
> helping small coops to network and share ideas.
>
> (Although, now that I've looked around, this place does seem a
> bit
> quiet...)
>
> Tom
>
>
>
>


=====
Sidney L. Bursten,
3710 Clarks Lane, Baltimore, MD 21215
Home & Office: 410-358-0034   Cellular: 410-963-0522
Fax: 410-358-2979
Email: sid@...

__________________________________
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--- chad pratt <cpratt@...> wrote:
> so the bug question embedded in that is - why did
> they switch away from that odel?

see http://cartalk.cars.com/About/ray-bio.html

The short answer is, I think, they weren't making
enough money.

>
> -C
>
>   ----- Original Message -----
>   From: Doug
>   To: programmercoops@yahoogroups.com
>   Sent: Saturday, June 28, 2003 8:13 AM
>   Subject: Re: [ProgrammerCoOps] Car repair co-op
>
>
>   I mentioned car repair to a friend at work who has
>   immigrated from Pakistan.  He told me that it is
> not
>   uncommon there for a group of families to band
>   together and keep a mechanic on retainer.
>
>   The "Car Guys" on radio got started with something
>   like the combination worker-consumer co-op that
> you
>   mentioned Robert.  They started with a shop in
> Boston
>   that was a do-it-yourself facility with lifts and
>   tools.  They offered advice and did
> fee-for-service
>   work for people who didn't want to do the work
>   themselves.  Later, they converted to a
> traditional
>   car repair shop.
>
>   --- "Robert M. Pritchett" <EGroups@...>
> wrote:
>   > I've thought about it, not sure who would have
> the
>   > capital to start one much
>   > less be interested in the approach. Might need a
>   > combination worker's co-op
>   > and customers' co-op for this.
>   >
>   >
>   > Robert M. Pritchett - RMP Consulting Partners
> LLC -
>   > member ICCA
>   > Quality means doing it right the first time -
>   > http://rmpcp.com
>   > Our web host is still working on our email
>   > duplication problem.
>   >
>   > .
>   > ----- Original Message -----
>   > From: Doug <doug07031863@...>
>   > To: <programmercoops@yahoogroups.com>;
>   > Sent: Friday, June 27, 2003 04:47 PM
>   > Subject: Re: [ProgrammerCoOps] Re: File -
>   > 1-Welcome.txt
>   >
>   >
>   >
>   > Off-topic side note:  anyone ever heard of /
> dealt
>   > with an auto repair co-op?  I just got some
>   > expensive
>   > brake work done and considered investigating
> this in
>   > my area, but didn't have time to.
>   >
>   >
>   >
>   >
>
>
>   __________________________________
>   Do you Yahoo!?
>   SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!
>   http://sbc.yahoo.com
>
>         Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
>
>
>
>   Thank you for using this group. Remember, you can
> read archived messages, change your settings,
> unsubscribe, or whatever by visiting the group URL
> at
>   http://groups.yahoo.com/group/programmercoops or
> you can unsubscribe by emailing
>   ProgrammerCoOps-UnSubscribe@YahooGroups.com -
> thank you.
>
>
>   Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
> Terms of Service.
>
>


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----- Original Message -----

From: Doug

To: programmercoops@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Saturday, June 28, 2003 8:13 AM

Subject: Re: [ProgrammerCoOps] Car repair co-op

I mentioned car repair to a friend at work who has
immigrated from Pakistan.  He told me that it is not
uncommon there for a group of families to band
together and keep a mechanic on retainer. 

The "Car Guys" on radio got started with something
like the combination worker-consumer co-op that you
mentioned Robert.  They started with a shop in Boston
that was a do-it-yourself facility with lifts and
tools.  They offered advice and did fee-for-service
work for people who didn't want to do the work
themselves.  Later, they converted to a traditional
car repair shop.

--- "Robert M. Pritchett" <EGroups@...> wrote:
> I've thought about it, not sure who would have the
> capital to start one much
> less be interested in the approach. Might need a
> combination worker's co-op
> and customers' co-op for this.
>
>
> Robert M. Pritchett - RMP Consulting Partners LLC -
> member ICCA
> Quality means doing it right the first time -
> http://rmpcp.com
> Our web host is still working on our email
> duplication problem.
>
> .
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Doug <doug07031863@...>
> To: <programmercoops@yahoogroups.com>;
> Sent: Friday, June 27, 2003 04:47 PM
> Subject: Re: [ProgrammerCoOps] Re: File -
> 1-Welcome.txt
>
>
>
> Off-topic side note:  anyone ever heard of / dealt
> with an auto repair co-op?  I just got some
> expensive
> brake work done and considered investigating this in
> my area, but didn't have time to.
>
>
>
>


__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!
http://sbc.yahoo.com


Thank you for using this group. Remember, you can read archived messages, change your settings, unsubscribe, or whatever by visiting the group URL at
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/programmercoops or you can unsubscribe by emailing
ProgrammerCoOps-UnSubscribe@YahooGroups.com - thank you.


Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

I mentioned car repair to a friend at work who has
immigrated from Pakistan.  He told me that it is not
uncommon there for a group of families to band
together and keep a mechanic on retainer.

The "Car Guys" on radio got started with something
like the combination worker-consumer co-op that you
mentioned Robert.  They started with a shop in Boston
that was a do-it-yourself facility with lifts and
tools.  They offered advice and did fee-for-service
work for people who didn't want to do the work
themselves.  Later, they converted to a traditional
car repair shop.

--- "Robert M. Pritchett" <EGroups@...> wrote:
> I've thought about it, not sure who would have the
> capital to start one much
> less be interested in the approach. Might need a
> combination worker's co-op
> and customers' co-op for this.
>
>
> Robert M. Pritchett - RMP Consulting Partners LLC -
> member ICCA
> Quality means doing it right the first time -
> http://rmpcp.com
> Our web host is still working on our email
> duplication problem.
>
> .
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Doug <doug07031863@...>
> To: <programmercoops@yahoogroups.com>;
> Sent: Friday, June 27, 2003 04:47 PM
> Subject: Re: [ProgrammerCoOps] Re: File -
> 1-Welcome.txt
>
>
>
> Off-topic side note:  anyone ever heard of / dealt
> with an auto repair co-op?  I just got some
> expensive
> brake work done and considered investigating this in
> my area, but didn't have time to.
>
>
>
>


__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!
http://sbc.yahoo.com

I've thought about it, not sure who would have the capital to start one much
less be interested in the approach. Might need a combination worker's co-op
and customers' co-op for this.


Robert M. Pritchett - RMP Consulting Partners LLC - member ICCA
Quality means doing it right the first time - http://rmpcp.com
Our web host is still working on our email duplication problem.

.
----- Original Message -----
From: Doug <doug07031863@...>
To: <programmercoops@yahoogroups.com>;
Sent: Friday, June 27, 2003 04:47 PM
Subject: Re: [ProgrammerCoOps] Re: File - 1-Welcome.txt



Off-topic side note:  anyone ever heard of / dealt
with an auto repair co-op?  I just got some expensive
brake work done and considered investigating this in
my area, but didn't have time to.

I completely agree.  There's nowhere to hide in a
global economy.  Unfortunately, we're probably going
to also need to get used to living more simply as the
leveling of GDPs happens throughout the world.

> like we need an alternative plan.  Leaving IT won't
> help because they can
> offshore other careers faster than we can learn
> them.
>
I completely agree.  There's nowhere to hide in a
global economy.  Unfortunately, we're probably going
to also need to get used to living more simply as the
leveling of GDPs happens throughout the world.

> So I'm thinking we need to go back to basics.  Get
> small groups of us
> together, cross-train enough to understand how to
> bring up small businesses
> from scratch (using open source and similar
> minimal-cost solutions), and
> then specialize enough to cover all bases and give
> our own individuality
> some free rein.   (All this will require us learning
> how to be businesses
> by bringing up ourselves from scratch).

Agree with this too.  One great market, if at all
feasible, would be other co-ops perhaps with bartering
agreements.  Does anyone have an opinion about this?
This probably is not workable as yet as it would no
doubt eliminate 90% of potential clients.

Off-topic side note:  anyone ever heard of / dealt
with an auto repair co-op?  I just got some expensive
brake work done and considered investigating this in
my area, but didn't have time to.

>
> (Although, now that I've looked around, this place
> does seem a bit
> quiet...)

Yeah.  It goes months at a time without posts.


__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!
http://sbc.yahoo.com

Excellent points, so I approved your membership. I'll forward your comments
here since it looks like you wouldn't mind (I hope) and they are very much on
topic here. And you're right, this place could use more discussion, which is
why I recommended it on Open IT. I hope to make my web site more informative
in this area (along with other changes I badly need to make) and I'm sure that
others here also have helpful ideas.

For the rest of the group here, you might want to check
http://pub21.ezboard.com/bopenitforum where there are lots of good discussions
along these lines. I think Doug has brought a lot of traffic here with his
contributions there, and I'm happy to do the same and vice versa.


Robert M. Pritchett - RMP Consulting Partners LLC - member ICCA
Quality means doing it right the first time - http://rmpcp.com
Our web host is still working on our email duplication problem.
Tired of hearing "W-2 only"? Work the same contract on our 1099 instead!
Email Apply at our web site above for more info. Group benefits pending.
See http://www.keen.com/rmpcp for legal/tax issues facing consultants.
We are not lawyers/accountants and are not giving legal/tax advice.

.
----- Original Message -----
From: Tom Chapin
To: programmercoops Moderator <programmercoops-owner@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, June 27, 2003 01:01 PM
Subject: Re: File - 1-Welcome.txt


I saw this place mentioned in Open IT Forum.

As the Fortune 500 takes a powder and sends all our jobs to India, looks
like we need an alternative plan.  Leaving IT won't help because they can
offshore other careers faster than we can learn them.

So I'm thinking we need to go back to basics.  Get small groups of us
together, cross-train enough to understand how to bring up small businesses
from scratch (using open source and similar minimal-cost solutions), and
then specialize enough to cover all bases and give our own individuality
some free rein.   (All this will require us learning how to be businesses
by bringing up ourselves from scratch).

And then try to be ready to move by the time Microsoft uses its new
licensing schemes to force small businesses to go open source or go
bankrupt.

To me that looks like some form of programmer (and general small business)
coops.  Which is totally new to me, cuz all my background is in Fortune 5.
So I'm looking for ideas, since I would see groups such as this one as
helping small coops to network and share ideas.

(Although, now that I've looked around, this place does seem a bit
quiet...)

Tom

Joel,
    I agree with Robert, your questions are best
answered by members of this group who, unlike I, are
actual members of a co-op.
    I can only imagine that this must be handled in a
way that makes sense to the co-op.  I do know that
some co-ops just pay everybody the same rate to avoid
these kinds of issues.  I've also seen an article that
states that inequality of real and/or perceived
contribution levels is one of the main reasons why
co-ops fall apart.  The only way I can think of to
mitigate this is to maybe have a trial period like
they do in partnerships where newcomers are junior
partners until they "make partner".
     As far as equity in the cooperative, especially
"sweat equity", this is really complicated, and I'll
have to defer to people who have wrestled with this
issue.  You may find something in the book "Putting
Democracy to Work" by Adams and Hansen.
     What makes all of this worthwhile, IMO, is to have
a more humane workplace.

- Doug

--- spiffy_guy_joel <spiffy_guy_joel@...> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I just joined this group so I thought I'd tell
> everybody why.
>
> Basically I have an idea for a web based business
> aiming at the
> general public as customers.  The same customers who
> use ebay, amazon,
> yahoo, expedia, priceline, etc.  Normally these
> types of businesses
> are funded by venture capatalists, and I have been
> considering going
> that route.
>
> What I would instead like to do is avoid the
> vultures and have
> ownership lie with those who develop the site
> (including myself).
> Unfortunatly nobody could get paid until the site
> made some revenue
> (which I think would happen quickly), but after the
> site was making
> money it could be quite profitable for all involved
> (possibly ebay
> order of profitable).  I envision a small team of
> 4-7 people who would
> work part time until the site gots some legs, when
> we could quit our
> day jobs and work full time on the site.
>
> Some of my questions are:
>
> 1. How do you interest people in dedicating time to
> a project by
> offering them ownership/profit sharing instead of
> direct money?
>
> 2. How do you divide profits in a fair and equitable
> way?  I will put
> my idea, money, and some time into it.  How do you
> weigh that against
> somebody who has put in more time but not the idea
> or money?  Do you
> compensate a marketing person and a graphics
> designer the same?  What
> about two people who put different amounts of time,
> but the person who
> put in less time got more done?
>
> 3. What if somebody leaves the group?  The work they
> did will continue
> to provide value, but they aren't adding value
> anymore.  Do they
> retain ownership?
>
> 4. How do you expand from the intial group?  Do you
> bring additional
> people on as regular employees and leave the intial
> group with
> ownership?  What level of ownership would new people
> have?  What if
> they wanted a salary, how does that affect
> ownership?
>
>


__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo.
http://search.yahoo.com

Interesting. At first I thought this sounded like a scam but as I read further
it looks like you're serious because you're asking good questions about how to
allocate value among the members based on what they provide. If you look
through the archived messages here, you'll see lots of discussion on this,
especially recently. Also we have some approaches to this that we use at
RMPCP, although our web site doesn't go into much detail.

Look over this stuff and also others here will help with your questions, I'd
help too but I'm swamped and most people here may have more experience with
groups explicitly set up as co-ops. However, I will give a big clue here - the
situation closely fits the partnership model, especially making extensive use
of special allocation, whereby different partners can have different shares of
profit/loss/equity/whatever because they bring different kinds of
contributions to the business, e.g. one provides money, one has the big idea,
one has contacts and does marketing or sales, others do the rank and file
programming, etc. - the partnership model is thus more flexible than the way
the co-op model is usually implemented (usually as more like a straight-up
partnership with each partner having an equal share or some similarly simple
scheme), but it can certainly be made cooperative as well, by using the best
aspects of both models. The key is how to define patronage, what value to
assign to different kinds of contributions, etc. - one way is to estimate a
fair market value hourly rate as to what would it take to hire the kind of
expertise, access to contacts, etc. a member provides, compare that with the
money another member provides, etc. and then keep track of hours and other
contributions spent by the members, and use something like a deferred
compensation plan to make sure that everyone eventually gets paid in full when
the company can afford it - sort of like the bonus points on our web site.

And oh, by the way, we've developed a much more efficient way to pay people
instead of making them employees or subcontractors either one, saving taxes
and legal hassles.


Robert M. Pritchett - RMP Consulting Partners LLC - member ICCA
Quality means doing it right the first time - http://rmpcp.com
Tired of hearing "W-2 only"? Work the same contract on our 1099 instead!
Email Apply at our web site above for more info. Group benefits available.
See http://www.keen.com/rmpcp for legal/tax issues facing consultants.
We are not lawyers/accountants and are not giving legal/tax advice.

.
----- Original Message -----
From: spiffy_guy_joel <spiffy_guy_joel@...>
To: <programmercoops@yahoogroups.com>;
Sent: Wednesday, May 14, 2003 04:35 PM
Subject: [ProgrammerCoOps] my interest in this group


Hi,

I just joined this group so I thought I'd tell everybody why.

Basically I have an idea for a web based business aiming at the
general public as customers.  The same customers who use ebay, amazon,
yahoo, expedia, priceline, etc.  Normally these types of businesses
are funded by venture capatalists, and I have been considering going
that route.

What I would instead like to do is avoid the vultures and have
ownership lie with those who develop the site (including myself).
Unfortunatly nobody could get paid until the site made some revenue
(which I think would happen quickly), but after the site was making
money it could be quite profitable for all involved (possibly ebay
order of profitable).  I envision a small team of 4-7 people who would
work part time until the site gots some legs, when we could quit our
day jobs and work full time on the site.

Some of my questions are:

1. How do you interest people in dedicating time to a project by
offering them ownership/profit sharing instead of direct money?

2. How do you divide profits in a fair and equitable way?  I will put
my idea, money, and some time into it.  How do you weigh that against
somebody who has put in more time but not the idea or money?  Do you
compensate a marketing person and a graphics designer the same?  What
about two people who put different amounts of time, but the person who
put in less time got more done?

3. What if somebody leaves the group?  The work they did will continue
to provide value, but they aren't adding value anymore.  Do they
retain ownership?

4. How do you expand from the intial group?  Do you bring additional
people on as regular employees and leave the intial group with
ownership?  What level of ownership would new people have?  What if
they wanted a salary, how does that affect ownership?

Hi,

I just joined this group so I thought I'd tell everybody why.

Basically I have an idea for a web based business aiming at the
general public as customers.  The same customers who use ebay, amazon,
yahoo, expedia, priceline, etc.  Normally these types of businesses
are funded by venture capatalists, and I have been considering going
that route.

What I would instead like to do is avoid the vultures and have
ownership lie with those who develop the site (including myself).
Unfortunatly nobody could get paid until the site made some revenue
(which I think would happen quickly), but after the site was making
money it could be quite profitable for all involved (possibly ebay
order of profitable).  I envision a small team of 4-7 people who would
work part time until the site gots some legs, when we could quit our
day jobs and work full time on the site.

Some of my questions are:

1. How do you interest people in dedicating time to a project by
offering them ownership/profit sharing instead of direct money?

2. How do you divide profits in a fair and equitable way?  I will put
my idea, money, and some time into it.  How do you weigh that against
somebody who has put in more time but not the idea or money?  Do you
compensate a marketing person and a graphics designer the same?  What
about two people who put different amounts of time, but the person who
put in less time got more done?

3. What if somebody leaves the group?  The work they did will continue
to provide value, but they aren't adding value anymore.  Do they
retain ownership?

4. How do you expand from the intial group?  Do you bring additional
people on as regular employees and leave the intial group with
ownership?  What level of ownership would new people have?  What if
they wanted a salary, how does that affect ownership?

You mean adding a footer to all messages with an unsubscribe link? No problem,
I'll try to get to it today.


Robert M. Pritchett - RMP Consulting Partners LLC - member ICCA
Quality means doing it right the first time - http://rmpcp.com
Tired of hearing "W-2 only"? Work the same contract on our 1099 instead!
Email Apply at our web site above for more info. Group benefits available.
See http://www.keen.com/rmpcp for legal/tax issues facing consultants.
We are not lawyers/accountants and are not giving legal/tax advice.

.
----- Original Message -----
From: gar <gar@...>
To: <programmercoops@yahoogroups.com>; <egroups@...>
Sent: Tuesday, April 29, 2003 02:55 AM
Subject: Re: [programmercoops] New moderator for programmercoops


I would like to see unsubscribe on the bottom of the list so that I can
do that.

--- In programmercoops@yahoogroups.com, gar <gar@g...> wrote:
> I would like to see unsubscribe on the bottom of the list so that
I can
> do that.

These are available at the groups "Home" page...
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/programmercoops

Group Email Addresses

Post message: programmercoops@yahoogroups.com
Subscribe:  programmercoops-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Unsubscribe:  programmercoops-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
List owner:  programmercoops-owner@yahoogroups.com

I wonder how cooperatives have been able to weather
the current 2-year+ downturn in IT?  If they have done
well, it would be a good promotion for
software-engineer co-ops and might give hope to people
who are unemployed and considering getting out of the
field.

If there are success stories, should we put something
together for publication in a major magazine like
Newsweek, or Time?  It would be an interesting success
story counterpoint to all of the dot.com failures and
layoff stories.

Just a thought...

- Doug


__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo.
http://search.yahoo.com

I would like to see unsubscribe on the bottom of the list so that I can
do that.

drc@... wrote:

>
> I'd be happy to take over. You can contact me off-list if you like.
>
> --David Chilcott
> drc@...
> www.outformations.com
> 510.655.7122 Voice
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Doug
>
>                     <doug07031863@       To:     programmer
> co-ops
>                     yahoo.com>
> <programmercoops@yahoogroups.com>
>
> cc:
>                     04/28/2003           Subject:
> [programmercoops] New moderator for
>                     05:29 AM
> programmercoops
>                     Please
> respond
>
> to
>
>
> programmercoop
>
>
> s
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Hi,
>
> I'd like to transfer moderator duties to someone else,
> if someone else is interested.
>
> If no one is interested, then I will probably delete
> the group in the next couple of weeks.
>
> - Doug
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo.
> http://search.yahoo.com
>
>                Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
>
>     (Embedded image moved to file: pic18716.gif)
>
> (Embedded image moved to file: pic19718.gif)
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
>
<http://rd.yahoo.com/M=229633.3212141.4526654.2595810/D=egroupweb/S=1705000236:H\
M/A=1556779/R=0/*http://shop.store.yahoo.com/cgi-bin/clink?ftd2+shopping:dmad/M=\
229633.3212141.4526654.2595810/D=egroupweb/S=1705000236:HM/A=1556779/R=1/1051547\
422+http://us.rmi.yahoo.com/rmi/http://www.ftd.com/rmi-framed-url/http://www.ftd\
.com/yahoo36>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service
> <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>

Hey Robert,

I'd like to keep this group open here on YahooGroups too.

And Robert, maybe you and I should talk sometime soon to think together
about how we can support the development of this group, our respective
businesses,  and programmer coops in general.

Your new co-moderator <grin>

--David Chilcott
drc@...
www.outformations.com
510.655.7122 Voice




                     "Robert M.
                     Pritchett"           To:    
<programmercoops@yahoogroups.com>
                     <EGroups@rmpcp       cc:
                     .com>                Subject:     Re: [programmercoops] New
moderator for
                                           programmercoops
                     04/28/2003
                     01:15 PM
                     Please respond
                     to
                     programmercoop
                     s






Thanks, and thanks for mentioning the Open IT forum too, where a lot of
Janet's regulars moved to. Several people had been thinking of starting a
new
forum there but someone beat me to it, and he's set up a good forum, but
he's
been out of pocket and hasn't appointed any other moderators. I really
don't
want to start a new forum that would compete with Open IT, but if we can
get
hold of the guy that set it up, he could probably add a section for co-ops
and
that might be the best approach and would encourage further
cross-fertilization between those here and there.

I like Yahoo groups though and if everyone wants to leave this one here
then
that's fine with me. If someone wants to start a new ezBoard forum similar
to
Open IT anyway, that's OK too.


Robert M. Pritchett - RMP Consulting Partners LLC - member ICCA
Quality means doing it right the first time - http://rmpcp.com
Tired of hearing "W-2 only"? Work the same contract on our 1099 instead!
Email Apply at our web site above for more info. Group benefits available.
See http://www.keen.com/rmpcp for legal/tax issues facing consultants.
We are not lawyers/accountants and are not giving legal/tax advice.

.
----- Original Message -----
From: Doug <doug07031863@...>
To: <programmercoops@yahoogroups.com>; <egroups@...>
Sent: Monday, April 28, 2003 11:59 AM
Subject: Re: [programmercoops] New moderator for programmercoops


David, Robert,

Thanks for stepping forward to moderate.

Let's give it a few more days and maybe use this time
to see what folks in the group want to do with this
group.

One thing that the new moderator may want to consider
is to disband this group and start an ezboard forum,
which we could then move over to.  The open it board
is an example of a successful ezboard forum:

http://pub21.ezboard.com/bopenitforum

I think that you, Robert and Gary who are in
functioning software engineer co-ops can speak from
experience that it is possible to start and grow
software worker co-ops.  If we go the ezboard route,
you would be in an ideal position to provide content
that will keep a discussion going.

- Doug

--- drc@... wrote:
>
> I'd be happy to take over. You can contact me
> off-list if you like.
>
> --David Chilcott
> drc@...
> www.outformations.com
> 510.655.7122 Voice


__________________________________
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Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

Thanks, and thanks for mentioning the Open IT forum too, where a lot of
Janet's regulars moved to. Several people had been thinking of starting a new
forum there but someone beat me to it, and he's set up a good forum, but he's
been out of pocket and hasn't appointed any other moderators. I really don't
want to start a new forum that would compete with Open IT, but if we can get
hold of the guy that set it up, he could probably add a section for co-ops and
that might be the best approach and would encourage further
cross-fertilization between those here and there.

I like Yahoo groups though and if everyone wants to leave this one here then
that's fine with me. If someone wants to start a new ezBoard forum similar to
Open IT anyway, that's OK too.


Robert M. Pritchett - RMP Consulting Partners LLC - member ICCA
Quality means doing it right the first time - http://rmpcp.com
Tired of hearing "W-2 only"? Work the same contract on our 1099 instead!
Email Apply at our web site above for more info. Group benefits available.
See http://www.keen.com/rmpcp for legal/tax issues facing consultants.
We are not lawyers/accountants and are not giving legal/tax advice.

.
----- Original Message -----
From: Doug <doug07031863@...>
To: <programmercoops@yahoogroups.com>; <egroups@...>
Sent: Monday, April 28, 2003 11:59 AM
Subject: Re: [programmercoops] New moderator for programmercoops


David, Robert,

Thanks for stepping forward to moderate.

Let's give it a few more days and maybe use this time
to see what folks in the group want to do with this
group.

One thing that the new moderator may want to consider
is to disband this group and start an ezboard forum,
which we could then move over to.  The open it board
is an example of a successful ezboard forum:

http://pub21.ezboard.com/bopenitforum

I think that you, Robert and Gary who are in
functioning software engineer co-ops can speak from
experience that it is possible to start and grow
software worker co-ops.  If we go the ezboard route,
you would be in an ideal position to provide content
that will keep a discussion going.

- Doug

--- drc@... wrote:
>
> I'd be happy to take over. You can contact me
> off-list if you like.
>
> --David Chilcott
> drc@...
> www.outformations.com
> 510.655.7122 Voice


__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo.
http://search.yahoo.com




Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

I have made David and Robert moderators.

- Doug

--- drc@... wrote:
>
> I'd be happy to take over. You can contact me
> off-list if you like.
>
> --David Chilcott
> drc@...
> www.outformations.com


__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo.
http://search.yahoo.com

David, Robert,

Thanks for stepping forward to moderate.

Let's give it a few more days and maybe use this time
to see what folks in the group want to do with this
group.

One thing that the new moderator may want to consider
is to disband this group and start an ezboard forum,
which we could then move over to.  The open it board
is an example of a successful ezboard forum:

http://pub21.ezboard.com/bopenitforum

I think that you, Robert and Gary who are in
functioning software engineer co-ops can speak from
experience that it is possible to start and grow
software worker co-ops.  If we go the ezboard route,
you would be in an ideal position to provide content
that will keep a discussion going.

- Doug

--- drc@... wrote:
>
> I'd be happy to take over. You can contact me
> off-list if you like.
>
> --David Chilcott
> drc@...
> www.outformations.com
> 510.655.7122 Voice


__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo.
http://search.yahoo.com

I'd be happy to take over. You can contact me off-list if you like.

--David Chilcott
drc@...
www.outformations.com
510.655.7122 Voice




                     Doug
                     <doug07031863@       To:     programmer co-ops
                     yahoo.com>            <programmercoops@yahoogroups.com>
                                          cc:
                     04/28/2003           Subject:     [programmercoops] New
moderator for
                     05:29 AM              programmercoops
                     Please respond
                     to
                     programmercoop
                     s






Hi,

I'd like to transfer moderator duties to someone else,
if someone else is interested.

If no one is interested, then I will probably delete
the group in the next couple of weeks.

- Doug


__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo.
http://search.yahoo.com

                Yahoo! Groups Sponsor

     (Embedded image moved to file: pic18716.gif)

  (Embedded image moved to file: pic19718.gif)




Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

I might be interested if there's not too much traffic to moderate or other
moderator type stuff to do, I have several groups already but this one seems
low volume enough to handle. However, I get tied up for periods of time and it
might be good to have more than one moderator just in case. And if others want
to moderate then that's fine with me, I'm only mentioning it in case no one
else wants to as I don't want this group to disappear.


Robert M. Pritchett - RMP Consulting Partners LLC - member ICCA
Quality means doing it right the first time - http://rmpcp.com
Tired of hearing "W-2 only"? Work the same contract on our 1099 instead!
Email Apply at our web site above for more info. Group benefits available.
See http://www.keen.com/rmpcp for legal/tax issues facing consultants.
We are not lawyers/accountants and are not giving legal/tax advice.