I have been putting lots of thought lately into the showrooms in my
plants. Outsides of some real nice appliance displays, what more
could one do to improve the aesthetics of the show room floor? One
thought that has crossed my mind is perhaps the addition of some nice
houseplants. Anyone have any thoughts?

Dan: A long story behind this one that you have GOT to hear.

That is a great question! I would also like to learn about that
also. I look forward to hearing from you!!!

I assume that our new member (LPGNZ) is from New Zealand. I would be
very interested in any information you could share on the propane
industry in New Zealand. I know for example that in the former
eastern bloc countries LP usage is very simular to here in the U.S.
but storage and transfer equipment is quite a bit different than
ours. We look forward to any information you will share.

Mark

Thanks John, I will take you up on that. I will give you a call next
week sometime. On the other hand we might need to look at the week
after, next week I have a staff meeting on Tue. We also have the high
muckety muck touring the area so not sure what the schedule will be
like next week, I will let you know.

--- lpgnh3 <mwil64@...> wrote:
> Anyone do alot of work with greenhouse's. just
> looking for advise on
> pipe options. CCST in a greenhouse???
> Hey Mark, we have a nice greenhouse customer in
Mcbain. I mean a real nice setup. The customer is
actually in Lucas. He has 2 green houses with 2 unit
heaters in each one. Total B.T.U. in each house is
450,000. He uses a ton of gas. We have 2 1000 gallon
tanks manifoled together with 3/4 in. plastic high
pressure line. Second stage pipe in each house is 1
inch black pipe. A real nice setup

Get in touch with me and i will give you the tour

                                        John









__________________________________________________
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--- Va Gasman <va_gasman@...> wrote:
>
>  I have seen a lot of copper run at greenhouses. I
> have no greenhouses here yet but that is what I
> would use if and when we get them.
>   lpgnh3 <mwil64@...> wrote: Anyone do alot
> of work with greenhouse's. just looking for advise
> on
> pipe options. CCST in a greenhouse???
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT
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> lrec_width=300;var lrec_height=250;on error resume
> nextSub banner_click_lrec_FSCommand(ByVal command,
> ByVal args)call
> banner_click_lrec_DoFSCommand(command, args)end sub
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>
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> DAN THE GASMAN
>
>
> ---------------------------------
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Yahoo! Greetings - send holiday greetings for Easter, Passover
http://greetings.yahoo.com/

 I have seen a lot of copper run at greenhouses. I have no greenhouses here yet but that is what I would use if and when we get them.

  lpgnh3 <mwil64@...> wrote:

Anyone do alot of work with greenhouse's. just looking for advise on
pipe options. CCST in a greenhouse???



To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
propane_gas_workers_group-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com



Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

Anyone do alot of work with greenhouse's. just looking for advise on
pipe options. CCST in a greenhouse???

if you give me the name of valve manufacture i will see if you need to
replace or check since if a leaky valve is sent to them they submerge in
water and count bubbles to see if allowable amount . most valves today use a
rubber gasket and not the cork gasket from the past . i would contact the
valve manufacture

-----Original Message-----
From: va_gasman [mailto:va_gasman@...]
Sent: Friday, March 22, 2002 8:05 PM
To: propane_gas_workers_group@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [propane_gas_workers_group] Flooded Furnace! Help!


Doe anybody know where it is written that a flooded unit has to be
condemmed!!! and not repaired in the code book!



To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
propane_gas_workers_group-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com



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--- In propane_gas_workers_group@y..., john stephens
<sasha101_99@y...> wrote:
>
> --- va_gasman <va_gasman@y...> wrote:
> > Doe anybody know where it is written that a flooded
> > unit has to be
> > condemmed!!! and not repaired in the code book!
> >
> > If ya look in the paperework that comes with the
> gasvalve it tells you if valve has been submerged in
> water it needs to be replaced
>
> > I would have to agree. Replace the valve and or any electronic
parts that had been submerged. Provided it was not submerged for an
extended period I can not see a reason to replace the whole furnace.
I have never seen an actual code relating to this here in Michigan
any way.

> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Movies - coverage of the 74th Academy Awards®
> http://movies.yahoo.com/

--- va_gasman <va_gasman@...> wrote:
> Doe anybody know where it is written that a flooded
> unit has to be
> condemmed!!! and not repaired in the code book!
>
> If ya look in the paperework that comes with the
gasvalve it tells you if valve has been submerged in
water it needs to be replaced


__________________________________________________
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Doe anybody know where it is written that a flooded unit has to be
condemmed!!! and not repaired in the code book!

not me i am still very busy designing new logs for our new stove


-----Original Message-----
From: va_gasman [mailto:va_gasman@...]
Sent: Thursday, March 21, 2002 7:24 AM
To: propane_gas_workers_group@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [propane_gas_workers_group] Slow, Very Slow!


How about the rest of you? slower than slow for us!!!!



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How about the rest of you? slower than slow for us!!!!

The Day after I Recieved this e-mail David M Ripple past away
due to illness(3-7-2). I posted the 2 e-mails this morning and found
out he had died this afternoon. He worked for Irving Oil Co up until
last year when he got sick and was forced out of work. Before that
he worked for Blue Flame. He was very knowledgeable in the LPG field
and was very helpful to me and others with information and help.
when I would be stumped or stuck in the middle of the night on call
or anytime he would help or just come to the house and assist me
with help till the job was completed.  He Will Be Missed!!!


           > To your gas problems--yes, I have seen just the
beginnings of the
> pilot assembly/thermocouple combined.  Yes, you do have to replace
> the entire part, with an OEM replacement.  Quite costly, and it
> takes time to get them.  Increases your parts inventory as each
are
> different.  There is also the new pilot generator/thermocouple
> assemblies which use both a pilot generator to operate the
> thermostat and gas valve and a separate thermocouple to operate
the
> safety.  This is because the new AGA specs require "complete
> shutdown" more quickly than a pilot generator can cool down and
turn
> the gas off.  Most of these also require complete replacement as
the
> generator and thermocouple are welded into place.
>
> Before replacing either of these, be sure the pilot orifice is
clean
> and not enlarged.  An enlarged orifice makes for a "lazy" pilot.
If
> it sounds like a blow-torch, it usually is a better pilot flame.
Do
> you remember the one you and I went on in Springfield, up toward
the
> reservoir?  ( think it was you and I, or was it Harry?)  We went
to
> the wrong house at first as we had the landlord's address but had
> the tenant's name.  It was an Empire, FAW.  Similar to a DV-55
> except vented into a chimney.  W.Leb had gone there and changed
> everything, including pilot orifice and gas valve.  Problems
> remained.  You and I went ad changed the new pilot orifice and
> everything cleared up.  Then we went back later and put the old
gas
> valve back on.  This was in an apartment house, with no one home
in
> the apartment.  Also, besides cleaning or replacing the pilot
> orifice, be sure the pilot assemble itself does not have any
clumps
> of crud blocking a nice, strong pilot flame.  As the pilot burns,
> the metal disintegrates and forms scale, something like weld
> splatter near the flame.  Be sure this is all cleaned off.  I went
> to the auto parts store and bought "an O-ring pick".  It looks
like
> a cheap dentist's pick.  This is good for cleaning the pilot
> assemble itself, not the orifice.
>
> A good pilot is sharp, and usually noisy.  It should hiss.  If
there
> is any curl or curve to the pilot flame, clean it!  Remember ,
> cleanliness is next to Godliness; and will prevent call-backs.
> Clean, clean, and clean again.
>
> Billy Brissom, the owner of Controls, Inc., Raleigh, said in one
> training session, that a major customer of theirs, a utility
company
> reduced call backs by over 90 percent by requiring a milli-volt
test
> on EVERY pilot that was cleaned or thermocouple changed.  Get one
of
> those adapters, something like a 10-238 and a meter that will
> measure DC millivolts up to 50 or so.  If you need some further
> instructions, I have an old set of instructions from an obsolete
> meter that can be applied to any situation.  I will try to find a
> copy and sent to you.  These tell how to test a thermocouple under
> load.  If you replace a thermocouple and still get a low reading,
> then you are certain the problem is the flame.  In one instance, I
> discovered in a water heater that the thermocouple holes were not
> punched correctly, allowing the thermocouple to move out of the
> flame.  Some ingenuity to redrill, use some wire to center the
> thermocouple--not tying it, but wrapping the pilot assembly to
> adjust the hole--and some hi-temp silicone to hold it all together
> worked.  We had problems on and off with this water heater for two
> or three years.
>  Enough of this for now, I've run out of BS.

To your gas problems--yes, I have seen just the beginnings of the
pilot assembly/thermocouple combined.  Yes, you do have to replace
the entire part, with an OEM replacement.  Quite costly, and it
takes time to get them.  Increases your parts inventory as each are
different.  There is also the new pilot generator/thermocouple
assemblies which use both a pilot generator to operate the
thermostat and gas valve and a separate thermocouple to operate the
safety.  This is because the new AGA specs require "complete
shutdown" more quickly than a pilot generator can cool down and turn
the gas off.  Most of these also require complete replacement as the
generator and thermocouple are welded into place.

Before replacing either of these, be sure the pilot orifice is clean
and not enlarged.  An enlarged orifice makes for a "lazy" pilot.  If
it sounds like a blow-torch, it usually is a better pilot flame.  Do
you remember the one you and I went on in Springfield, up toward the
reservoir?  ( think it was you and I, or was it Harry?)  We went to
the wrong house at first as we had the landlord's address but had
the tenant's name.  It was an Empire, FAW.  Similar to a DV-55
except vented into a chimney.  W.Leb had gone there and changed
everything, including pilot orifice and gas valve.  Problems
remained.  You and I went ad changed the new pilot orifice and
everything cleared up.  Then we went back later and put the old gas
valve back on.  This was in an apartment house, with no one home in
the apartment.  Also, besides cleaning or replacing the pilot
orifice, be sure the pilot assemble itself does not have any clumps
of crud blocking a nice, strong pilot flame.  As the pilot burns,
the metal disintegrates and forms scale, something like weld
splatter near the flame.  Be sure this is all cleaned off.  I went
to the auto parts store and bought "an O-ring pick".  It looks like
a cheap dentist's pick.  This is good for cleaning the pilot
assemble itself, not the orifice.

A good pilot is sharp, and usually noisy.  It should hiss.  If there
is any curl or curve to the pilot flame, clean it!  Remember ,
cleanliness is next to Godliness; and will prevent call-backs.
Clean, clean, and clean again.

Billy Brissom, the owner of Controls, Inc., Raleigh, said in one
training session, that a major customer of theirs, a utility company
reduced call backs by over 90 percent by requiring a milli-volt test
on EVERY pilot that was cleaned or thermocouple changed.  Get one of
those adapters, something like a 10-238 and a meter that will
measure DC millivolts up to 50 or so.  If you need some further
instructions, I have an old set of instructions from an obsolete
meter that can be applied to any situation.  I will try to find a
copy and sent to you.  These tell how to test a thermocouple under
load.  If you replace a thermocouple and still get a low reading,
then you are certain the problem is the flame.  In one instance, I
discovered in a water heater that the thermocouple holes were not
punched correctly, allowing the thermocouple to move out of the
flame.  Some ingenuity to redrill, use some wire to center the
thermocouple--not tying it, but wrapping the pilot assembly to
adjust the hole--and some hi-temp silicone to hold it all together
worked.  We had problems on and off with this water heater for two
or three years.
  Enough of this for now, I've run out of BS.

Hi Dan

These heaters where you are having the problems--if they are vent
free heaters with ODS (oxygen depletion sensor) pilots--they cannot
be operated continuously.

In the early days, many, many of these heaters had one little line
in the instructions--in the room with the heater, a window should be
opened about 1 to 2 inches.  Thisis to isure enough oxygen in the
room.

Every house and room has "infiltration"--fresh air that leaks into
the house, and fresh oxygen.  When these heaters operate for a long
time, the oxygen is burned away.  When the pilot goes out, the
infiltration of fresh air continues.  It is one or two or more hours
until you get there.  Then you enter, opening a door, walking
through to stir the air, and probably the home owner also walks
through several times.  Then, you light the pilot and get a good
reading.

We had one out at Crescent Lake. before Irving bought Blue Flame
Gas.  An A-Frame house was built with some electric heat.  Later
two large vent-free heaters were installed.  Everything worked
fine.  The people came up on weekends, used the heat, then shut the
house up for the week.  The next weekend they came back and did the
same thing again.  Fine.  But alas!  The daughter split with her
husband and moved in full time with two kids.  They kept the heaters
running full time.  The electric heat would not keep the house at a
liveable temperature.  Then the problems started.  Finally, we
convinced them to let a window open about 2 inches and all was
well.  Fire has to have oxygen.

If this is the same as your situation, then consider it.  Also, as
people keep adding caulking, plastic, foam insulation sprayed into
the cracks, and general weatherization, the rate of infiltration is
reduced, causing "stale" air, and no oxygen.  Also, find out if the
people are using tier oven for heat.  It burns a lot of oxygen.
Smokers burn much more oxygen than non-smokers.  These last two
items have caused havoc with CO detectors going off.

A special Welcome and thank you to Englander Stove and Ray Murry Inc
for their enrollment to our group! Hope you enjoy the site!
                    Dan The Gasman

Anyone else having a hard time getting bids on new construction? I
have had a couple of bids to bid on and did not even get a foot in
the door! when I was told that i needed to come in under $1.000 on a
unit (4 Units to a building) with fire box,logs,ug500 gallon tank,4
meters,all piping + Parts,Labor,Gas, whole job!!! HOW IS THAT
POSSIBLE??? but someone did bid and win it for that price! with only
fire logs they wont ever make it back in gas!!! does anyone know how
this can be done? and profit with it???

Let me toss out a couple of situations to get anyone's thoughts
on.
#1.  Your service area covers a pretty good chunk of a state. So
naturally you're dealing with inspectors on several different
levels.
Starting with state mechanical inspector's then county inspectors
and
in some cases a township inspector. Now with the exception of a few,
who is most often the inspector on the state level, most of these
inspectors DON'T HAVE A CLUE! What they are looking for. They all
seem to interpret codes differently; nothing seems to be uniform. I
personally can remember my first encounter with an inspector who was
clearly creating his own rules. I approached him with book in hand to
no avail. Even though the code was clear in the book, he had the
final say in the matter and I was labeled for life as
the "troublemaker who we need to keep an eye on".  I know one
good
question to ask every inspector here in Michigan is "What is an
important structure"? NFPA 58 reads that we may not set a tank
within
ten feet of an important structure. I personally find this one
laughable how each inspector interprets this one. Over the years I
have developed an almost sadistic nature about this questions and, I
end up asking every new inspector that I meet. I find myself
listening to his particular response as if I had never posed this
question to anyone before. Generally afterwards I am able to add his
response to the list of 10,000 different responses that I already
have.

#2. Why pull a permit at all, when your competitor down the road has
not pulled one for years. His business seems to be growing and the
state and local officials never seem to question this. I know my
answer to this but I would like to hear your thoughts.

well dan i must say i know exactly how that goes. People think that
hell even a plumber can hook up a gas line it is all copper right. It
is just amazing the different kind of people that there are in the
world some don't even want to touch anything that has anything to do
with propane (much safer that way) and then ya got the back yard
service tech ya might say. I went out to a customer and locked out
the tank went back a couple of weeks later to pick up the tank and
the guy used rubber hose like the hose you use for vaccuum lines on a
car. he connected the pol to the first stage regulator. although he
did you hose clamps to hook them up which i slide off with my hands.
by the way can ya tell that this guy owns a junk yard. Definetly not
a safe situation but some people just don't care till it's to late.
i guess that is why they say it takes all kinds RIGHT????

Glad to see the new names! hope that it will be Fun,Helpful and that
all will enjoy! please ask or post anything that you want to!
                     DAN THE GASMAN

--- In propane_gas_workers_group@y..., "va_gasman" <va_gasman@y...>
wrote:
> We took the wall unit back and refunded her money after she refused
> to have it done properly! We could not take responsibility for that
> set up if the house burnt or someone got hurt you know that we
would
> be the ones to get fried in court and cival court.

I hear ya. Liability is getting to be some real scary stuff. Wow tank
pressure to the control valve, bet you can toss that baby in the
Dumpster. You know the scary part is, how many of your own customers
are the "Tim Taylor, Mr. Do it yourself types"? That have
installed
the homemade turkey cooker slash garage unit heater and, just Willie
Nillie tapped into your gas line where ever he seen fit. Your only
protection is a current Gas Check that I can see.

We took the wall unit back and refunded her money after she refused
to have it done properly! We could not take responsibility for that
set up if the house burnt or someone got hurt you know that we would
be the ones to get fried in court and cival court.

Holy Cow Dan, I thought that sort of thing could only happen in
Michigan. So what was the outcome?

On 2-25-2 got the call first thing 8:00am. My heater will not light!
I bought it 2-23-2 from your store and it is broken! can you come
and fix or replace it right now! OK?  are you a customer of ours I
do not reconize your name? NO i'm with your compeditor but the stove
is yours and i want it fixed or replaced now! Who installed your
stove? My husband and he owns a hardware store and has done this
before! ok ma-am we will be over in an hour.
   We get to the house and the lady meets us out side and shows us
the way to the heater. She is a dog groomer and in a very small
building. I see a wall unit sitting on the floor with 2'of 3/8
copper and a 20lb cylinder sitting in front of the heater! NO
REGULATOR AND COMPRESSION FITTINGS and she is telling us that they
tried all night (2-23-2) to light this thing! I'm Glad that it did
not light!!!
    With out going through the rest of the service call, she was
very  upset with us for trying to take advantage of her for her
money and her husband knew how to do this kind of work after all he
owns a hardware store!

well i must say this could be a wonderful and useful site. I sure
hope that we can get other members for our group. I sure hope that
dan and mark are still out recruiting for new members. I know i sure
will be!!! once we get some people in our group we can share some
knowledge. or even some funny stories related to the LP industry.

Hi Dan,
I think you have a good idea with this, I will put the word out here;
see if we can get a few more people on board.

Come on check it out! give it a shot

I started this group which I hope grows and works for all that join !
Thought that maybe a group of tech's and or drivers could help one
another in the LPG field. There technical questions that come up that
all could need some help with or some one may want to share a
situation that could help also ! Information is free and educational
so lets all help ome another.
  I am Dan The Gasman, I live in Virginia and grew up in New England
and have worked in the propane field since 1987. I always look to
learn more about codes - regs - technical - etc! knowledge is the key
to any technicians job
                    Thanks for your timeand hope to see your post!
                                   DAN THE GASMAN