I'm a little confused on battery memory. Do these gelcell Optimas
have
memory or not? And if they do have memory are we doing damage by
taking advantage of opportunity charging? Is battery technology
coming
along such that better batteries are on the horizon for the same
price?

>
> >  Does anyone else have the problem
> > of a slow leakdown of percentage? If I don't drive it within say, 12
> > hours after it has reached 100P the readings start to slowly drop
> to
> > 99P down as low as 96P, if undriven for say 36 hours?
You're not leaving the Sparrow plugged in after charge, are you?  I believe
that the battery compartment vent fans run off the 12 Volt supply,  and are
only powered when the charger is powered.  Since the charger doesn't keep
the batteries on a trickle charge after completing the charge cycle, the fans
are a slow drain on the battery pack, at about the rate you specified...


Thanks,

Phil Salkie
Lime Green Unit #38 (Falcon of Fong)
phil@...

EVLN(FUNNY, IT DOESN'T LOOK MUCH LIKE A MOTORCYCLE)
[The Internet Electric Vehicle List News. For Public EV informational
  purposes. Contact publication for reprint rights.]
  --- {EVangel}
Valley & State FUNNY, IT DOESN'T LOOK MUCH LIKE A MOTORCYCLE Mary Jo
Pitzl, The Arizona Republic 05/22/2000 The Arizona Republic Final
Chaser B1 (Copyright 2000 Phoenix Newspapers, Inc.)

Take a three-wheeled car that seats one, run it past the Motor Vehicle
Division and you get -- a motorcycle.

That's what MVD officials decided late last week as they wrestled with
how to categorize the Sparrow, a new electric vehicle that landed in
Arizona for the first time at Childress Auto Mall in Phoenix.

The funky one-seater, made by Corbin Motors of Hollister, Calif.,
initially stumped state officials.

But because the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration has
decreed the vehicle a motorcycle, MVD spokeswoman Cydney DeModica said
that's how Arizona's Motor Vehicle Division will register it, too.

That decision frees Mitchel Williams to claim his new car, which he
plans to use for his daily 50-mile round-trip commute.

However, Williams will have to get a new license to go along with his
new registration.

"If it goes 70 mph, and it's classified as a motorcycle," DeModica
said, "he'll have to have a motorcycle license."

Color photo by Dave Cruz/The Arizona Republic; Caption: Wanting to be
environmentally correct, Mitchel Williams of Phoenix tured to buy an
electric car. But the Sparrow stumped DMV officials until they decided
to classify it as a motorcycle.
  ...
  http://www.azcentral.com  dhontz@...
Copyright 1998, The Arizona Republic. All rights reserved.
Tel# 602-271-8645   Copyright 1998 Phoenix Newspapers, Inc.
  ---
  Bruce {EVangel} Parmenter
          ____        % Use Renewable Energy to charge your EV %
       __/o|__\~        EVangel: messenger bringing good news
=)---'@ -----@'      'Electric cruis'n the Santa Clara Valley'
132V S-10 Blazer http://members.aol.com/brucedp/  BruceDP@...
Electric Vehicle List Editor      http://crest.org/ev-list-archive/
EAA San Jose EVents Officer       http://eaaev.org/sjeaa/
Renewable Energy News Editor      EV & AE List sysop
FCEV & HEV Newsitems  http://egroups.com/messages/hydrogenpower

'Web it Out':  http://geocities.com/sparrow_ev


__________________________________________________
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Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger.
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> 1.  has anybody else had similar aging problems with their battery
pack or is my relatively old sparrow one of the first to exhibit such
issues?

Nope. I drove 2 Sparrows (Zark, # 30, and Wasp, # 6), and have not
seen battery ageing.
>
> 2.  My emeter originally claimed 86% efficiency for putting charge
back into the batteries (the manual claims that new batteries
typically have about 90% or better).  After 2 charges with my new
numbers, my efficiency number (which is as you may know, recalculated
by the emeter each time you charge) went first to 75 and is now at
70%.  What are other people experiencing with their efficiency number
(which is the first data item stored in the emeter data memory
storage area)?

Wasp's E-meter tells me that the efficiency is 90%. You may have a
bad
battery. Can anyone tell us how to test batteries?

>I barely get 35 - 37 miles per charge.
Your range is OK, given that you ride up the mountain. I do too (my
girlfriend lives at 8000 feet!), and it takes me about 35 AH to do 25
miles total round trip when I go visit her. In town, I get more like
40 miles for that much energy.

>  Does anyone else have the problem
> of a slow leakdown of percentage? If I don't drive it within say, 12
> hours after it has reached 100P the readings start to slowly drop
to
> 99P down as low as 96P, if undriven for say 36 hours?
Not that I am aware of.


> What do you mean "not paying enuf attention to the E-meter?"
> keeping it above 135 volts except on a burst of power
I don't EVER let mine go down to 135 V! That's 135 / 13 = 10 V per
battery, which Optima tells me is the absolute minimum voltage before
damage starts occurring. And, that's 10 V if all the batteries are
identical (which is unlikely). In practice, the weakest of your
batteries will drop to an even lower voltage, damaging it further.
Corbin is working on a solution to this problem: the controller will
reduce the drive if any one battery starts dropping to below 10 V.

> How can I check for a bad battery?
I don't know. Help anyone else?

> Are static readings any good for anthing?
Not really. A better indication is how much the voltage drops as you
draw current.
Are you able to note the voltage at 0 Amps, and then at, say, 75 A?
Use the E-meter for the voltage and the analog ammeter for the
current. Do this when fully charged, mid charge, and low charge. I'll
compare your data to mine.

>I removed the panel and drove without it.

Fine. Just make sure a lawyer doesn't stick his / her hands in the
open compartment!
The cooling of the controller leaves a lot to be desired.
Air is drawn from a small port behind your seat (if the seat is all
the way back that can be a problem) and expelled back into the
storage
compartment (if you have a coat there, it can be a problem too).
Corbin should have drawn external air instead and expelled it
externally.

>I'd never been warned about blocking that vent.
Yep!

Thanks,
D'de

Davide Andrea
DAVIDE
1898 Flatiron Ct
Boulder CO 80301
USA
1 (303) 786-7977

Broadcasting eclectic music on the internet:
Tuesday afternoons on www.kgnu.org (13:00 Mountain Time) listen using
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Tuesday evenings on www.gogaga.com (18:00 Mountain Time) listen using
QuickTime, WindowsMedia or RealAudio

Hello Sparrow Group,

I am a new sparrow owner - - - I recently acquired John Oddone's "pinky" which
is #4 in the growing population of sparrows.  When I fully explored the emeter
manual, and the current data in the meter, I discovered that it had only met its
full charge criteria 8 times since installation.  After watching the numbers
carefully during a recharge I found it necessary to adjust the volts/amp
criteria from 190/2% which is what I have been told the sparrows are shipped
with, . . . to 185/5% . . . because, even though the voltage would rise to about
191 volts nearing full charge, as the amps started to taper back, the voltage
would slowly creep back to about 188 volts which would keep the charge criteria
from being met.  I raised the amperage requirement from 2% to 5% just to be sure
it would meet full charge criteria (and because I never received a charge
controller manual so I don't really know how far the charger will taper down the
amperage before ending the charge cycle.

Now for my 2 questions:

1.  has anybody else had similar aging problems with their battery pack or is my
relatively old sparrow one of the first to exhibit such issues?

2.  My emeter originally claimed 86% efficiency for putting charge back into the
batteries (the manual claims that new batteries typically have about 90% or
better).  After 2 charges with my new numbers, my efficiency number (which is as
you may know, recalculated by the emeter each time you charge) went first to 75
and is now at 70%.  What are other people experiencing with their efficiency
number (which is the first data item stored in the emeter data memory storage
area)?

Looking forward to much learning and sharing as we all learn about the fledgling
world of sparrows :-)


Tim


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>We need to answer these questions or you won't be happy with your
  "overpriced (!*%!$&$) toy".

Man what A LOT of information. This is great! Keep the information
flowing 'cause I've got a bunch to learn. The dealership has been
really good to me as far as telling me what they know but I'm
learning
that they mean well BUT I've gotten A BUNCH more information here.

> Are you driving too far? Are you not charging enough? Are yon not
> paying enough attention to the E-meter?

I don't think that I'm driving too far. I barely get 35 - 37 miles
per charge. I have to admit that I'm driving primarily mountain
roads,
which is where I'm assuming I've got a substational loss. I'm really
not that much of a hotfoot either.

Charging is after every run. I usually leave it plugged in.
Which bring up another question - Does anyone else have the problem
of a slow leakdown of percentage? If I don't drive it within say, 12
hours after it has reached 100P the readings start to slowly drop to
99P down as low as 96P, if undriven for say 36 hours?

What do you mean "not paying enuf attention to the E-meter?"
keeping it above 135 volts except on a burst of power

> Or maybe it's the Sparrow's fault: Is your Sparrow squandering
energy
> (tight brakes, for example)? Do you have a bad battery?
>
I suspected dragging pads when I had this problem a couple of months
ago but the dealer assured me that they checked the brakes after it
was towed back to the shop (15 miles) I was sure that day I could NOT
have made it that # of miles even tho' most of it is downhill. I was
using battery power @ about twice the normal rate.

How can I check for a bad battery? I can't even see the leads on some
of them. Are static readings any good for anthing? I've logged all
four E-meter readings along with mileage before and following each
run since January
>
>
> > The little black box on the floor in front of the Emergency
> > Electrical Disconnect has three lights on it.
>
> The green LED (left): comes on when the Motor Controller is A-O.K..
> The yellow LED (center) comes on if the throttle is pressed too
hard,
> and the Motor Controller is misadjusted.
> The red LED (right) comes on if the Motor Controller is
over-heating.
>
> And, if I may: it's a "motor" not an "engine".
>
>
> > As it was explained to me, since you are asking for a constant
> > voltage from your battery package as you get to the bottom of the
> > charge you will being pulling more AMPs, thus the problems are
more
> > likely to occur toward the bottom of the charge.
> Some of what you said is true, but the logic is a bit faulty.
>
> Yes: at lower battery voltage (Volts) you need more battery current
> (Amps) to get the same motor power.
> Yes: problems are more likely to occur at lower battery volatges.
> But, NO: the 2 are not related.
>
> This is a more detailed explanation on what is happening.
>
> The motor voltage and current are DIFFERENT from the battery
voltage and current.
> The E-meter reports the battery voltage and current (not the
motor's).
>
> The motor voltage is nearly proportional to the speed of the
Sparrow.
> The motor current is directly proportional to the torque of the
motor (and, nearly, to the force moving the Sparrow forward).
>
> It takes something to convert the battery voltage (nearly constant)
> to the motor voltage (changes with speed).
> That something is the Motor Controller.
>
> The Motor Controller REDUCES THE VOLTAGE from battery voltage down
to the motor voltage, and at the same time INCREASES THE CURRENT from
> the
> battery current up to the motor current. The product of the battery
> voltage times the battery current is the POWER FROM THE BATTERY to
> the  Motor Controller.  The product of the motor voltage times the
motor current is the POWER TO THE MOTOR from the  Motor Controller.
These
2
> powers are always the same (due to conservation of energy).
> (Actually,
> some of the power is wasted in heat by the Motor Controller, which
is
> about 95 % efficient.)
>
> So, you may find that you can hit a hill and slow down (say, to
half
> the previous speed), and yet the E-meter is showing the same amount
> of
> current (Amps). That means that you are still using just as much
> power
> from the battery. But, as the Sparrow has slowed down to half the
> previous speed, the motor voltage has halved; and, as the Sparrow
is
> climbing, the motor current has doubled, to double the torque. So,
> the
> power from the battery has remained the same, as has the power to
the
> motor. It's just that now more of the power is used to climb (torque
> =
> motor current) instead of going fast (speed = motor voltage).
>
> And, as the batteries' voltage decreases, we need more current from
> them to get the same power out of them and hence the same power to
> the
> motor. That means that, if it takes you 1 A to drive with a charged
> battery, it will take you, say, 1.2 A when the batteries are
> discharged (I am assuming the same speed, the same stretch of road,
> in
> the same direction and same wind and temperature conditions).
>
>
>
> >... and think you're doin' fine &
> > the motor will just cut-out.
>
> There are 2 possible causes (other than a breakdown) for the
Sparrow
> to stop driving the motor:
> 1) the motor controller shuts down
> 2) the DC-to-DC converter shuts down
>
> 1) MOTOR CONTROLLER
> The Motor Controller can shut down for (at least) 3 reasons:
> 1a) it overheats (red LED).
> 1b) it thinks that the throttle is pressed too far (yellow LED).
> 1c) the current is excessive.

> The symptom of the Motor Controller shutting down is that the
Sparrow remains On but there's no power to the motor.

BINGO this is exactly what happens

No noise accompanies this effect. The battery voltage is normal. The
red or yellow LEDs
> may
> come on. Turning the key Off and On restores power. If the cause is
> overheat, the symptom reoccurs soon after you restart.
>
> 1a) OVERHEAT
> Overheat depends on ambient temperature and how hard the controller
> is
> working.
> It turns out that the controller works the hardest (heats up the
> most)
> when it drives the motor at half the battery voltage, and maximum
> motor current.
> It is more likely for this situation to occur when going up a steep
> hill

and here in lies another of my problems: I live near the top of a
pretty steep hill. Usually about 2-3 bursts of 10-15 seconds, each of
2/3 throttle in the final 2 minutes that I'm driving. I'm sure that
this also contributes to my much-less-than-average mileage. I don't
ever feel good about heading up my hill with less than 30P left in my
battery pack

(lower speed = lower motor voltage), that going fast on the
> highway (for a given current).
> When this happens, wait for the Motor Controller to cool, with the
> ignition On to keep the fans running.
> Trick: open the panel over the Motor Controller to speed up the
> cooling.

Okay I tried something today that may not have been too wise, but I
wanted to get out today in my vehicle but what with the overheating
problem combined with our over 90 degree heat I removed the panel and
drove without it. I never saw any red overheat lights. I have since
driven it twice more with no signs of overheating.

> I have experienced overheat only twice.
> 1) A test driver tore through a parking lot with the hand-brake on;

As I said above I'm not too much of a hotfoot

> 2) Going up the mountain, on a Summer day, and my raincoat was
> clogging the air exhaust port in the storage area behind the driver.

This possibility hit me where I live. I tend to not be into good
housekeeping & I'd never been warned about blocking that vent.

> 1b) OPEN THROTTLE.
> Should the wires to the throttle sensors open, the motor controller
> would think that the throttle is fully pressed, which would be a
> dangerous situation.
> To protect against this, the Motor Controller shuts down if the
> throttle is pressed too far.
> Where that point is depends on how the throttle is mounted, and may
> change from Sparrow to Sparrow.
> Therefore, there's an adjustment in the Motor Controller to tell it
> haw far the Throttle can be pressed before the Motor Controller
shuts
> down.
> If this adjustment is set too low, you won't get the full range of
> motor drive.
> If this adjustment is set too high, the Yellow LED will light-up
and
> the controller will shut down.
> Please see my service bulletin on the controller for instructions
on
> how to set this adjustment.
>
> 1c) OVER-CURRENT.
> Actually, the Motor Controller doesn't shut down in case of over-
> current, but limits the motor current to safe levels (you hear a
high
> pitch whine when this occurs: just let go of the throttle a bit).
>
I don't hear high pitches any longer. I HAVE noticed decreased
throttle responsiveness @ times followed shortly thereafter but the
overheating problem
>
> 2) DC-TO-DC CONVERTER
> The DC-to-DC converter can shut down for (at least) 2 reasons:
> 2a) The battery voltage is below about 130 volts.
> 2b) The current drawn by the 12 V loads is excessive.
> The symptoms of the DC-to-DC converter shutting down are that the
> Sparrow clicks loudly and everything goes off when you press the
> throttle a bit; and turning the key Off and On restores power. The
> battery voltage is very low.
>
> 2a) DC-TO-DC-CONVERTER UNDERVOLTAGE
> The DC-to-DC converter is the silver box tied to the top-most
battery
> in the Sparrow's trunk. It performs 2 functions: it efficiently
> reduces the battery voltage from the nominal 156 V down to a well
> regulated 12 V, to power the accessories (radio, contactors,
e-meter,
> cigarette lighter outlets, windows, lights...); and it electrically
> isolates the battery voltage from the accessories (specifically, if
> you are holding something that is plugged into the cigarette
lighter
> outlet at the same time as you touch one of the battery contacts,
you
> won't be shocked). It's called "DC-to-DC" because it converts from
> one
> DC voltage (156 Vdc) to another (12 Vdc).
> Corbin specified a DC-to-DC converter that is not designed to
operate
> with an input voltage as low as the batteries can go. This is good
in
> a way, because it keeps you from hurting the batteries by driving
> with
> too low a battery voltage. But, it's bad for those times when you
are
> only a mile away from home, and you know that the Sparrow could
creep
> there if the DC-to-DC converter would only let you (the Motor
> Controller works fine at the lower battery voltage' so it's not the
> limiting factor). A better solution would have been if the
controller
> limited the motor drive when any of the batteries dropped to 10
Vdc,
> that way the Sparrow could at least crawl to the nearest outlet.
> The reason the Sparrow shuts down when there's an under-voltage, is
> that the 12 V supply from the DC-to-DC Converter powers the
> contactors.
> The Sparrow has 3 contactors. These are the big relays in the
> controller compartment. Two are in front (front always means the
> front
> of the Sparrow) of the Motor controller (to the left as you look at
> it) and are used to set the motor direction; they are the ones that
> clack when you set the switch to "Forward" or "Reverse". One is in
> the
> back (to the right as you look at it) to turn On power to the Motor
> Controller; this is the one that clacks a few seconds after you set
> the ignition to "Start".
> So, when the DC-to-DC Converter shuts down, the contactors turn
Off,
> so that the available battery voltage doesn't reach the Motor
> Controller, and the Motor Controller's output doesn't reach the
motor.
>
>
> > The red light on the right comes on when
> > you have been asking too much from your power source. It seems to
> > trigger after an entire minute or two of pushing the voltage
meter
> > below 135.
> > It also seems to kick in if you have been on the accelerator
> > continuously for 3 or 4 minutes of the last five, regardless of
> what
> > you've been pulling out of those batteries.  Therefore you can be
> > toolin' along drawing just 145 volts and think you're doin' fine &
> > the motor will just cut-out.
>
> I believe that you are describing 2 different symptoms:
> 1) overheat
> 2) under-voltage
>
> You can distinguish the 2:
> 1) no clacking of the contactors when you lose power, and red light
> comes On
> 1) clacking of the contactors when you lose power, and red light
> stays
> Off
>
>
> > If you can find a spot under a
> > nice shade tree, head for it. If my theory of what you've been
> > drawing for the last few minutes is correct you'll just have to
> wait
> > out the timer.
>
> It's not a timer, it's just the time that it takes for the Motor
> Controller to cool.
> Trick: open the panel over the Motor Controller and leave the
> ignition
> On so that all the fans are running:you won't need a book.
>
>
> Alan, I hope this helps, but we still need to find out if your
> Sparrow
> has some fundamental problems. Tell me how what I am telling you
here
> jives with what you are experiencing.
>
This reply to my posting has taken me two plus days to digest &
respond to. Thanks in advance for your advise.

Alan

Hi!

The pictures of my "less hassle" belt change are at
   www.howman.com/sparrow/beltchange

They pretty much illustrate my last message.  I'll put a .zipped .pdf file
there as well, but it's 7 MB zipped.

Thanks!

Phil Salkie
phil@...
Unit #38 - "Falcon of Fong"

Oh, yeah -

I put some pictures up at www.howman.com/sparrow, and some pictures of
a modification I made at www.howman.com/sparrow/keyswitch.

I replaced the forward/reverse selector (an IDEC HW-series, BTW) with a key
(also IDEC HW-series), removable in forward, neutral, or center, and
surrounded with a chrome guard ring.  I then attached the key to the main
keychain with a coily-cord, so that you use the key to jockey out of the
parking space, then once you get moving down the road, you pull the key out.
That keeps you from being able to grab the wrong knob when reaching for
the windshield wiper - no key, no ability to switch into neutral or (shudder)
reverse.  The guard makes it almost impossible to accidentally switch the key,
anyway, but a little paranoia never hurt.


Phil Salkie
phil@...
Unit #38

Great .pdf files, very informative.

I've managed to break the belt on my Sparrow (unit #38) once, but I feel
it was entirely my fault - got it stuck in the mud off the side of my
driveway, and got mud between the belt and the rear pulley, causing the
effective size of the pulley to increase.  Add lots of load, and snap.

I found, however, that it wasn't necessary to disassemble the end-bell of
the motor to change the belt - in fact, the entire procedure, including
jacking, should take about an hour.  I've made up a .pdf, but it's way too
huge (about 6 MB) - maybe Davide can take my info and pictures and produce
a smaller file, perhaps with his neat drawings replacing some of my pix.
I'll put it on the web somewhere and post its location later.

Basically, the trick is to loosen the swing-arm plate from the back of the
motor, remove the two plate mount bolts that are closest to the motor pulley,
squeeze the belt throught the gap you've just made, take the belt and squeeze
it into the conical end-bell, around the end of the motor pulley (there
really is room there) and into place.  Now you pull the wheel slightly to the
left side of the car, which shortens the belt path a bit.  Slide the belt
over the rear pulley, and tighten everything up.  Quick, easy, and requires
only the (ubiquitous) 4mm allen key, an 8mm allen key, an 8mm allen key socket,
and a 1/4 inch allen key socket.  (Plus your jacking stuff.)


Later,

Phil Salkie

Last night I was driving Wasp (yellow Sparrow # 6) in Longmont, CO at
the end of a weekend long show of electric vehicles inside the Twin
Peaks mall.
The show was quite successful, and it ended with a "bang":
unfortunately, a driver slammed in another vehicle because he was
looking at Wasp instead of where he was going (there's more to it,
but
I won't bore you with the details). He later failed a sobriety test
and was taken away in a Police cruiser. No-one was hurt.

Many people who are curious about the Sparrow express their concern
that this vehicle may not be safe in case of an accident. What few
realized was how the Sparrow can be a CAUSE of accidents. I myself am
guilty of looking too much at drivers looking at my Sparrow; I must
make an effort to ignore them, and pay even more attention to the
road.

Drive safely, everyone! And, of course, if you drink, don't drive.

Thanks,
D'de

Davide Andrea
DAVIDE
1898 Flatiron Ct
Boulder CO 80301
USA
1 (303) 786-7977

Broadcasting eclectic music on the internet:
Tuesday afternoons on www.kgnu.org (13:00 Mountain Time) listen using
RealAudio
Tuesday evenings on www.gogaga.com (18:00 Mountain Time) listen using
QuickTime, WindowsMedia or RealAudio

The flashers by themselves couldn't bring the battery voltage that
low
so quickly, i'd think. You may have a battery problem in your
Sparrow,
or something else was on as well.

When the Zivan battery charger complains because the battery voltage
is too low, disconnect the power cord, press the red button emergency
disconnect, and let the Sparrow sit for 30 minutes. The battery
voltage will climb a bit. Then, turn the disconnect back On, and then
plug the Sparrow to the outlet. That usually works.

--- In sparrow_ev@egroups.com, "Alan " <midlwood@c...> wrote:
> I'd returned one evening from my daily jaunt & was in a hurry and I
> left without plugging my Sparrow into house current. I returned a
few
> hours later to find a barely visible set of 4-way warning lights
> doing their darndest to warn me that I must have inadvertantly
> knocked the 4-way flashers button. Fortunately I was able to talk
to
> someone in the know. The charger does NOT recognize a sub-135 volt
> battery package, therefore I had to bring the package up to @ least
> 135 volts i.e. 10.5 X 13 = 136.5
> I had to bring the voltage back up from 90 volts. They advised me
> that I could do it & what I needed to do was call up a few of my
> friends & ask nicely to borrow their battery chargers.
> I was able to easily lift off the seat (slide forward & tilt out,
> after removing the two screws)
> Wearing safety glasses, you can carefully & safely charge each
> battery, in place WITHOUT disconnecting anything, for an hour,
maybe
> less, up to 10.5 volts. Then move on to the next battery, charging
it
> for up to an hour. The more chargers that I could borrow the fewer
> moves onto the next battery shuffles, I'd being doing that night.
> When the voltage reading for the entire battery package is reading
> the required minimum 135 volts you can plug your pride & joy into
> it's normal plug & it will charge itself the rest of the way to 180
> or whatever your starting voltage is.
> You do not want to let these batteries sit discharged for very long
> at all. The lack of charge can do permanent damage to some/all of
> your individual gold bricks aka batteries
>
> Please confirm this with your Sparrow authorized service department.
>
> Alan

--- In sparrow_ev@egroups.com, "Alan " <midlwood@c...> wrote:
> ...experiencing acceleration & cut-outs which left me stopped along
> the side of the road ...

> It seems to
> trigger after an entire minute or two of pushing the voltage meter
> below 135.

You seem to be using far more of the available energy than you
should.
Every deep discharge that brings about the situation you describe is
taking away one of the 9 lives that your battery pack has (O.K>, it's
many more than 9, but you get the idea).

We need to answer these questions or you won't be happy with your
"overpriced (!*%!$&$) toy".

Are you driving too far? Are you not charging enough? Are yon not
paying enough attention to the E-meter?

Or maybe it's the Sparrow's fault: Is your Sparrow squandering energy
(tight brakes, for example)? Do you have a bad battery?



> The little black box on the floor in front of the Emergency
> Electrical Disconnect has three lights on it.

The green LED (left): comes on when the Motor Controller is A-O.K..
The yellow LED (center) comes on if the throttle is pressed too hard,
and the Motor Controller is misadjusted.
The red LED (right) comes on if the Motor Controller is over-heating.

And, if I may: it's a "motor" not an "engine".



> As it was explained to me, since you are asking for a constant
> voltage from your battery package as you get to the bottom of the
> charge you will being pulling more AMPs, thus the problems are more
> likely to occur toward the bottom of the charge.
Some of what you said is true, but the logic is a bit faulty.

Yes: at lower battery voltage (Volts) you need more battery current
(Amps) to get the same motor power.
Yes: problems are more likely to occur at lower battery volatges.
But, NO: the 2 are not related.

This is a more detailed explanation on what is happening.

The motor voltage and current are DIFFERENT from the battery voltage
and current.
The E-meter reports the battery voltage and current (not the motor's).

The motor voltage is nearly proportional to the speed of the Sparrow.
The motor current is directly proportional to the torque of the motor
(and, nearly, to the force moving the Sparrow forward).

It takes something to convert the battery voltage (nearly constant)
to
the motor voltage (changes with speed).
That something is the Motor Controller.

The Motor Controller REDUCES THE VOLTAGE from battery voltage down to
the motor voltage, and at the same time INCREASES THE CURRENT from
the
battery current up to the motor current. The product of the battery
voltage times the battery current is the POWER FROM THE BATTERY to
the
Motor Controller.  The product of the motor voltage times the motor
current is the POWER TO THE MOTOR from the  Motor Controller. These 2
powers are always the same (due to conservation of energy).
(Actually,
some of the power is wasted in heat by the Motor Controller, which is
about 95 % efficient.)

So, you may find that you can hit a hill and slow down (say, to half
the previous speed), and yet the E-meter is showing the same amount
of
current (Amps). That means that you are still using just as much
power
from the battery. But, as the Sparrow has slowed down to half the
previous speed, the motor voltage has halved; and, as the Sparrow is
climbing, the motor current has doubled, to double the torque. So,
the
power from the battery has remained the same, as has the power to the
motor. It's just that now more of the power is used to climb (torque
=
motor current) instead of going fast (speed = motor voltage).

And, as the batteries' voltage decreases, we need more current from
them to get the same power out of them and hence the same power to
the
motor. That means that, if it takes you 1 A to drive with a charged
battery, it will take you, say, 1.2 A when the batteries are
discharged (I am assuming the same speed, the same stretch of road,
in
the same direction and same wind and temperature conditions).



>... and think you're doin' fine &
> the motor will just cut-out.

There are 2 possible causes (other than a breakdown) for the Sparrow
to stop driving the motor:
1) the motor controller shuts down
2) the DC-to-DC converter shuts down

1) MOTOR CONTROLLER
The Motor Controller can shut down for (at least) 3 reasons:
1a) it overheats (red LED).
1b) it thinks that the throttle is pressed too far (yellow LED).
1c) the current is excessive.
The symptom of the Motor Controller shutting down is that the Sparrow
remains On but there's no power to the motor. No noise accompanies
this effect. The battery voltage is normal. The red or yellow LEDs
may
come on. Turning the key Off and On restores power. If the cause is
overheat, the symptom reoccurs soon after you restart.

1a) OVERHEAT
Overheat depends on ambient temperature and how hard the controller
is
working.
It turns out that the controller works the hardest (heats up the
most)
when it drives the motor at half the battery voltage, and maximum
motor current.
It is more likely for this situation to occur when going up a steep
hill (lower speed = lower motor voltage), that going fast on the
highway (for a given current).
When this happens, wait for the Motor Controller to cool, with the
ignition On to keep the fans running.
Trick: open the panel over the Motor Controller to speed up the
cooling.

I have experienced overheat only twice.
1) A test driver tore through a parking lot with the hand-brake on;
2) Going up the mountain, on a Summer day, and my raincoat was
clogging the air exhaust port in the storage area behind the driver.

1b) OPEN THROTTLE.
Should the wires to the throttle sensors open, the motor controller
would think that the throttle is fully pressed, which would be a
dangerous situation.
To protect against this, the Motor Controller shuts down if the
throttle is pressed too far.
Where that point is depends on how the throttle is mounted, and may
change from Sparrow to Sparrow.
Therefore, there's an adjustment in the Motor Controller to tell it
haw far the Throttle can be pressed before the Motor Controller shuts
down.
If this adjustment is set too low, you won't get the full range of
motor drive.
If this adjustment is set too high, the Yellow LED will light-up and
the controller will shut down.
Please see my service bulletin on the controller for instructions on
how to set this adjustment.

1c) OVER-CURRENT.
Actually, the Motor Controller doesn't shut down in case of over-
current, but limits the motor current to safe levels (you hear a high
pitch whine when this occurs: just let go of the throttle a bit).



2) DC-TO-DC CONVERTER
The DC-to-DC converter can shut down for (at least) 2 reasons:
2a) The battery voltage is below about 130 volts.
2b) The current drawn by the 12 V loads is excessive.
The symptoms of the DC-to-DC converter shutting down are that the
Sparrow clicks loudly and everything goes off when you press the
throttle a bit; and turning the key Off and On restores power. The
battery voltage is very low.

2a) DC-TO-DC-CONVERTER UNDERVOLTAGE
The DC-to-DC converter is the silver box tied to the top-most battery
in the Sparrow's trunk. It performs 2 functions: it efficiently
reduces the battery voltage from the nominal 156 V down to a well
regulated 12 V, to power the accessories (radio, contactors, e-meter,
cigarette lighter outlets, windows, lights...); and it electrically
isolates the battery voltage from the accessories (specifically, if
you are holding something that is plugged into the cigarette lighter
outlet at the same time as you touch one of the battery contacts, you
won't be shocked). It's called "DC-to-DC" because it converts from
one
DC voltage (156 Vdc) to another (12 Vdc).
Corbin specified a DC-to-DC converter that is not designed to operate
with an input voltage as low as the batteries can go. This is good in
a way, because it keeps you from hurting the batteries by driving
with
too low a battery voltage. But, it's bad for those times when you are
only a mile away from home, and you know that the Sparrow could creep
there if the DC-to-DC converter would only let you (the Motor
Controller works fine at the lower battery voltage' so it's not the
limiting factor). A better solution would have been if the controller
limited the motor drive when any of the batteries dropped to 10 Vdc,
that way the Sparrow could at least crawl to the nearest outlet.
The reason the Sparrow shuts down when there's an under-voltage, is
that the 12 V supply from the DC-to-DC Converter powers the
contactors.
The Sparrow has 3 contactors. These are the big relays in the
controller compartment. Two are in front (front always means the
front
of the Sparrow) of the Motor controller (to the left as you look at
it) and are used to set the motor direction; they are the ones that
clack when you set the switch to "Forward" or "Reverse". One is in
the
back (to the right as you look at it) to turn On power to the Motor
Controller; this is the one that clacks a few seconds after you set
the ignition to "Start".
So, when the DC-to-DC Converter shuts down, the contactors turn Off,
so that the available battery voltage doesn't reach the Motor
Controller, and the Motor Controller's output doesn't reach the motor.


> The red light on the right comes on when
> you have been asking too much from your power source. It seems to
> trigger after an entire minute or two of pushing the voltage meter
> below 135.
> It also seems to kick in if you have been on the accelerator
> continuously for 3 or 4 minutes of the last five, regardless of
what
> you've been pulling out of those batteries.  Therefore you can be
> toolin' along drawing just 145 volts and think you're doin' fine &
> the motor will just cut-out.

I believe that you are describing 2 different symptoms:
1) overheat
2) under-voltage

You can distinguish the 2:
1) no clacking of the contactors when you lose power, and red light
comes On
1) clacking of the contactors when you lose power, and red light
stays
Off


> If you can find a spot under a
> nice shade tree, head for it. If my theory of what you've been
> drawing for the last few minutes is correct you'll just have to
wait
> out the timer.

It's not a timer, it's just the time that it takes for the Motor
Controller to cool.
Trick: open the panel over the Motor Controller and leave the
ignition
On so that all the fans are running:you won't need a book.


Alan, I hope this helps, but we still need to find out if your
Sparrow
has some fundamental problems. Tell me how what I am telling you here
jives with what you are experiencing.

Thanks,
D'de

Davide Andrea
DAVIDE
1898 Flatiron Ct
Boulder CO 80301
USA
1 (303) 786-7977

Broadcasting eclectic music on the internet:
Tuesday afternoons on www.kgnu.org (13:00 Mountain Time) listen using
RealAudio
Tuesday evenings on www.gogaga.com (18:00 Mountain Time) listen using
QuickTime, WindowsMedia or RealAudio

Thanks for letting me know.
What do you all think of putting that little image with the
cover of Autoweek on the front page and having it linked to
the URL (below)?

I will be using that news item to promote the Sparrow.
I will be POSTing it to the EV areas I contribute to.

  -BruceDP  EV List Editor

--- Alan Middleton <midlwood@...> wrote:
> Here's someone else's take on the Sparrow. [...]
>
http://www.competitionpress.com/covers/covshow.mv?coverid=cv98704cv58457cv45464
>
> Alan
--

__________________________________________________
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Alan:

PLEASE keep sending in comments/suggestions/pictures/good things and
badddd....we need to get feedback, we NEED communication, that will filter
back to HollisterLand where it will, even if it takes an eternity, be
processed and improvements will be made..we ALL have that responsibility,
when we put down the money for this electric shoe, we took on the
responsibility to be part of the TEAM to solve these problems...

Please, call me. send me email, pictures...I call HollisterLand every day..I
am heading out there next month..the more input the better !!


emillio

www.GMElectricVehicles.com <http://www.GMElectricVehicles.com>


-----Original Message-----
From: Alan [mailto:midlwood@...]
Sent: Sunday, May 21, 2000 5:48 AM
To: sparrow_ev@egroups.com
Subject: [sparrow_ev] driving with my voltz on


Over the last number of months when I've been wondering if I was the
only one having the kinds of problems which we are all experiencing
with acceleration & cut-outs which left me stopped along the side of
the road fuming @ this overpriced (!*%!$&$) toy I bought, thinking I
were doing the right thing for the next generations.
A couple of lessons learned...

First and foremost - Practice safe following distances. Not only will
you be more visible to oncoming traffic (you're making other drivers
consider if maybe they too couldn't do with something like what
you're driving) - You will also save on re-accelerations.
Momentum is the key to the Sparrow. This has taken me a while to
realize. You really don't want to step on those brakes. It's taken 1
or 2 percent of your charge for you to get up to this speed. Treat
this momentum as your ticket to ride. Don't squander it away in a
blast of testosterone brought on by frustration.

Secondly - If you don't ask the engine to give you more than it can
be expected to give it'll perform just fine. We have not bought an
absolutely finished product rather we are part of an evolving club of
first-time-problem-solvers for alot of problems that hopefully we
don't ALL have to experience

Right up front I admit to knowing next to nothing about electricity
since my Navy days 30 years ago. This is just what I believe I'm
experiencing & my explanation of the situation.

As it was explained to me, since you are asking for a constant
voltage from your battery package as you get to the bottom of the
charge you will being pulling more AMPs, thus the problems are more
likely to occur toward the bottom of the charge. With that in mind...
The controller is the part of this vehicle that has protections wired
into it. The little black box on the floor in front of the Emergency
Electrical Disconnect has three lights on it. The green light on the
left is on when the engine is running. (The center light I do NOT
know about, I think it's got something to do with a third overide
which I don't know about) The red light on the right comes on when
you have been asking too much from your power source. It seems to
trigger after an entire minute or two of pushing the voltage meter
below 135.
It also seems to kick in if you have been on the accelerator
continuously for 3 or 4 minutes of the last five, regardless of what
you've been pulling out of those batteries.  Therefore you can be
toolin' along drawing just 145 volts and think you're doin' fine &
the motor will just cut-out.
(Experience it first without the witnesses, believe me, it's less
embarassing)
If you start to see that little red light coming on, think about
where you're going to pull over. Unless you can use less from the
batteries in the next coupla minutes, than you have been in the last
couple, then you're putting yourself in danger of being in a bad spot
& lookin' for where to coast to. It's a place closely akin to up the
creek without the proverbial paddle. If you can find a spot under a
nice shade tree, head for it. If my theory of what you've been
drawing for the last few minutes is correct you'll just have to wait
out the timer. Carry a book along with you.

If any of this is contrary to what others are experiencing or know to
be correct please share with us all, I'm anxious to learn what I'm
doing or thinking that's wrong.

Lookin' forward to seein' Sparrows coming at me,
Alan



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I'd returned one evening from my daily jaunt & was in a hurry and I
left without plugging my Sparrow into house current. I returned a few
hours later to find a barely visible set of 4-way warning lights
doing their darndest to warn me that I must have inadvertantly
knocked the 4-way flashers button. Fortunately I was able to talk to
someone in the know. The charger does NOT recognize a sub-135 volt
battery package, therefore I had to bring the package up to @ least
135 volts i.e. 10.5 X 13 = 136.5
I had to bring the voltage back up from 90 volts. They advised me
that I could do it & what I needed to do was call up a few of my
friends & ask nicely to borrow their battery chargers.
I was able to easily lift off the seat (slide forward & tilt out,
after removing the two screws)
Wearing safety glasses, you can carefully & safely charge each
battery, in place WITHOUT disconnecting anything, for an hour, maybe
less, up to 10.5 volts. Then move on to the next battery, charging it
for up to an hour. The more chargers that I could borrow the fewer
moves onto the next battery shuffles, I'd being doing that night.
When the voltage reading for the entire battery package is reading
the required minimum 135 volts you can plug your pride & joy into
it's normal plug & it will charge itself the rest of the way to 180
or whatever your starting voltage is.
You do not want to let these batteries sit discharged for very long
at all. The lack of charge can do permanent damage to some/all of
your individual gold bricks aka batteries

Please confirm this with your Sparrow authorized service department.

Alan

Over the last number of months when I've been wondering if I was the
only one having the kinds of problems which we are all experiencing
with acceleration & cut-outs which left me stopped along the side of
the road fuming @ this overpriced (!*%!$&$) toy I bought, thinking I
were doing the right thing for the next generations.
A couple of lessons learned...

First and foremost - Practice safe following distances. Not only will
you be more visible to oncoming traffic (you're making other drivers
consider if maybe they too couldn't do with something like what
you're driving) - You will also save on re-accelerations.
Momentum is the key to the Sparrow. This has taken me a while to
realize. You really don't want to step on those brakes. It's taken 1
or 2 percent of your charge for you to get up to this speed. Treat
this momentum as your ticket to ride. Don't squander it away in a
blast of testosterone brought on by frustration.

Secondly - If you don't ask the engine to give you more than it can
be expected to give it'll perform just fine. We have not bought an
absolutely finished product rather we are part of an evolving club of
first-time-problem-solvers for alot of problems that hopefully we
don't ALL have to experience

Right up front I admit to knowing next to nothing about electricity
since my Navy days 30 years ago. This is just what I believe I'm
experiencing & my explanation of the situation.

As it was explained to me, since you are asking for a constant
voltage from your battery package as you get to the bottom of the
charge you will being pulling more AMPs, thus the problems are more
likely to occur toward the bottom of the charge. With that in mind...
The controller is the part of this vehicle that has protections wired
into it. The little black box on the floor in front of the Emergency
Electrical Disconnect has three lights on it. The green light on the
left is on when the engine is running. (The center light I do NOT
know about, I think it's got something to do with a third overide
which I don't know about) The red light on the right comes on when
you have been asking too much from your power source. It seems to
trigger after an entire minute or two of pushing the voltage meter
below 135.
It also seems to kick in if you have been on the accelerator
continuously for 3 or 4 minutes of the last five, regardless of what
you've been pulling out of those batteries.  Therefore you can be
toolin' along drawing just 145 volts and think you're doin' fine &
the motor will just cut-out.
(Experience it first without the witnesses, believe me, it's less
embarassing)
If you start to see that little red light coming on, think about
where you're going to pull over. Unless you can use less from the
batteries in the next coupla minutes, than you have been in the last
couple, then you're putting yourself in danger of being in a bad spot
& lookin' for where to coast to. It's a place closely akin to up the
creek without the proverbial paddle. If you can find a spot under a
nice shade tree, head for it. If my theory of what you've been
drawing for the last few minutes is correct you'll just have to wait
out the timer. Carry a book along with you.

If any of this is contrary to what others are experiencing or know to
be correct please share with us all, I'm anxious to learn what I'm
doing or thinking that's wrong.

Lookin' forward to seein' Sparrows coming at me,
Alan

I realize with horror that I am hogging a noticeable portion of the
space allotted to this group with my service bulletins. Please let me
know if you think I should remove some of the bigger service
bulletins, try to shrink them, or if we can get more megabytes.

Also, I wasn't clear on the previous posting: these service bulletins
can be found by clicking the "files" link.

on 5/20/00 2:40 PM, Davide Andrea at 1davide@... wrote:

> As you know, Corbin doesn't have a Sparrow service manual, ... and,
> at
> this stage the Sparrow has plenty of problems.
>
> In the meanwhile, please allow me to offer some "service bulletins" I
> developed as I repaired the many problems my Sparrow ("Zark", # 30)
> has suffered through. This is an older (skinny wheels) Sparrow, so
> many details may not apply to yours.
>
> These bulletins are LOADED with pictures, which makes for big files.
> But, I believe that, should you have problems with your Sparrows (god
> forbid!), looking through these bulletins may give you the confidence
> to undertake many repair yourself. The pictures may also be useful
> for
> other problems that are not directly covered by a bulletin.
>
> Corbin seems to be very happy to support you with parts when you do
> your own repairs.
> Please understand that I have never worked on cars before, so the
> format of the bulletins and the terminology I use may seem unusual.
>
> To view the files, use Adobe Acrobat Reader (download for free from
> Adobe.com).
>
> Please let me know if these bulletins are useful.
> Thanks,
> D'de
>
> Davide Andrea
> DAVIDE
> 1898 Flatiron Ct
> Boulder CO 80301
> USA
> 1 (303) 786-7977
>
>
>
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>
>
David:

Please send any and all pictures, notes, comments etc...we all must work
TOGETHER to make this succeed !!

and call me anytime, I would really love to chat and learn from your hard
work on your Sparrow !!

emillio
Green Mountain EV
ez@...
802 468 2345

As you know, Corbin doesn't have a Sparrow service manual, ... and,
at
this stage the Sparrow has plenty of problems.

In the meanwhile, please allow me to offer some "service bulletins" I
developed as I repaired the many problems my Sparrow ("Zark", # 30)
has suffered through. This is an older (skinny wheels) Sparrow, so
many details may not apply to yours.

These bulletins are LOADED with pictures, which makes for big files.
But, I believe that, should you have problems with your Sparrows (god
forbid!), looking through these bulletins may give you the confidence
to undertake many repair yourself. The pictures may also be useful
for
other problems that are not directly covered by a bulletin.

Corbin seems to be very happy to support you with parts when you do
your own repairs.
Please understand that I have never worked on cars before, so the
format of the bulletins and the terminology I use may seem unusual.

To view the files, use Adobe Acrobat Reader (download for free from
Adobe.com).

Please let me know if these bulletins are useful.
Thanks,
D'de

Davide Andrea
DAVIDE
1898 Flatiron Ct
Boulder CO 80301
USA
1 (303) 786-7977

I found the images from the that newsitem dispite the fact
the newswire URL does not come up. I uploaded them to the
files area.

  -BruceDP

I have added a few Sparrow links I found on
ask.com and dogpile.com

Click on the links when you are in
www.egroups.com/group/sparrow_ev

  -BruceDP

First you have to go to egroups.com

sign in

then go to http://www.egroups.com/group/sparrow_ev

click on files

click on add

use browse to find your local file (no matter what type)

then click upload.

then POST a message to the Sparrow members of what the
files are and where to get the reader (URL).
  -BruceDP

--- Davide Andrea <1Davide@xxx> wrote:
> Once more, thank you for doing this!

> Please answer directly these 2 questions:
>
> 1) Can I submit pdf files? <Yes>
>
> 2a) If <yes>, then: how do I do so? ABOVE



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Hi there,

Just signing on - Anne, Jen, and I own Sparrow # 38, delivered this
march.  We've put an average of 70 miles a day, 5 days a week, for
the last couple months - at this point, we've got 3200+ miles on her.

I submitted a 2000 mile review to EVWorld (www.evworld.com) and
Electrifying Times (www.teleport.com/~etimes) - that describes about
all of the problems we've had so far (except a broken arc-supression
magnet on the heater contactor, forgot that when I was writing up
the article...)

Look forward to hearing from you all...

Phil Salkie
phil@...

{As POSTed to the Internet Electric Vehicle List}
[and all EV contacts]
--{Fwd from Mike Thompson SJEAA & EV1-Club m.t.thompson@... }
Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 17:12:42 -0700
From: Terence Dowling <dowling@...>
To: EV1-NCal@..., ev1-club@...
Subject: [EV1-CLUB] HOV Sticker update

I talked with folks from DMV and CHP about the status of stickers for
HOV access (AB71).

1) DMV should be ready to accept sticker applications at DMV field
    offices on or about June 15th.

2) The fee for the stickers will be $8.00 and must be paid with
    the application.

3) Stickers will be mailed by DMV from Sacramento. No field offices
    will have stickers.

4) The effective date for access remains July 1, 2000 although
    stickers will probably not be available until later (see "B" below).

5) Remember that HOV access require a sticker, driving an EV1 is not
    enough.

6) CHP indicated that the program for CalTrans highway signage was
    "on track".

Notes:

  A) DMV/CHP has gone to some significant trouble to find a vendor
     to make stickers that will not damage paint.

     It is unclear what this will mean in practice. If the sticker
     is too easily removed we may have a vandalism problem.

  B) Because of the attempt to find a "paint friendly" sticker
     vendor, it is likely that DMV will not actually start mailing
     stickers until July 15th or later.

  C) Sticker design has not changed from the "final design" posted
     on the club web site.

  D) Sticker number and placement has not changed. The requirement
     is for one of the smaller size stickers on the back of the car
     and one of the larger size stickers on each side.

     Placement of the rear sticker is to be on the right side of
     the rear bumper.

     Placement of the side stickers is to be aft of the centerline
     of the rear wheel on the rear quarter panel.

     It would seem that DMV/CHP requirements will not allow sticker
     placement on the black panel behind the side window (the sail)
     and will not allow the rear sticker to be placed next to the
     rear license plate on the trunk lid.


I plan to be at DMV on June 15th and I'll report my experience.

--
Terence Dowling             (408) 536-3856
Adobe Systems Inc.          dowling@...
-


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To: David and cc: the Sparrow_EV egroup

Hi David, et al :-)

David, I pray that you do not mind that I copied this message to
the Sparrow_EV egroup. I feel the information here will help others.

To answer some of your questions:
- I am glad to see there are subscribers to the Sparrow_EV
   egroup. Is nice to fruition to an idea :-)
   But, David I do not see you as a subscriber? There are
   three ways to receive the messages: you can get them
   individually, as a daily digest (one big message), or no
   email - you view the messages via the egroups Sparrow_EV
   page. *See http://www.egroups.com/list/sparrow_ev
   on how to subscribe.

- Yes, I think that is a great idea. Anything to help other
   Sparrow_EV drivers. There should be a way to store files
   on the Sparrow egroups area. There are a lot of free 'bells
   and whistles' available with egroups (the only price is the
   banner ads). If a member of the Sparrow_EV egroup would contact
   you and work with you to make those available, that would be
   best. Then the files can be referred to again and again when
   common questions are posed by newbies.

   Speaking of Ads, I pray that no one uses this forum for Blasting
   out ADs. That is not the intended use of this egroup. If there
   are violators, I want to be notified. At some point in the
   future, there should be enough organization of the users, for
   an appointed member to share ownership of this egroup and web page.
   (I don't build empires, I EVangel the EV cause which others continue).

- The link you found in the POSTed newswire item will die after a
   period of time. You most likely do not know who I am, or how/what
   I do, and the style of my newswire POSTs.

   Instead of watching TV and paying for cable as the majority do, I
   pay for the newswires (same as a newspaper, TV, Radio station would).
   I glean those newswires for the various causes I contribute to:
   Electric (EVs), hybrid, fuel cell vehicles, Renewable Energy:
   electricity  to recharge my EV from Solar, Wind, Geothermal, Bio-
   sources. My main focus if EVs.

   The newswire items I POST to the various areas of the internet may
   have the URL of where it came from. This lets a person make contact
   with the source for any questions. I didn't write the newswires items,
   and I would not be the person you would send the questions to.

  In the URL http://www.egroups.com/message/sparrow_ev/1
  that is the url of the Sparrow_EV egroups message that has the
  Sparrow_EV newswire POST I made. In that POST, you can see at the
  beginning the source for the newswire item:

  Drive WILD ART 04/28/2000 The Edmonton Sun Final DR30
  (c) Copyright 2000 The Edmonton Sun. All Rights Reserved.photo by AP

  A simple www.yahoo.com search (best for finding media sources) using
  keywords  Edmonton Sun  will give their web page for contact info,
   http://www.canoe.ca/EdmontonSun

  As the newswire page ages, it will be 'turned-off'. That is why I POSTed
  to the Sparrow_EV egroup. If it is POSTed there, it would be lost.

...
I hope that answers your questions

* I hope that Sparrow_EV owners will send me an image and a description
   for the Sparrow_EV photo album page. An example would be what is
   in place for the http://geocities.com/Ranger_EV photo album.

  My main email address is BruceDP@...  <- always finds me
   http://members.aol.com/brucedp


--- Davide Andrea <1Davide@xxx> wrote:
> Hi!
> I am a Sparrow owner too.
>
- Thank you for setting up the Sparrow driver page. It's good to have an
> unofficial voice as well as the manufacturer's!
>
- If it's OK, I'd like to contribute some service notes I wrote for the
> Sparrow while fixing my many breakdowns.
> Would that be interesting?
- May I submit them as downloadable pdf files?
> They contain lots of pictures, so they are relatively big.
> Alternatively, I could submit them as WORD files.
>
>
- Also, in the page
> http://www.egroups.com/message/sparrow_ev/1?
> the links
> [ http://news.excite.com/img/feeds/ap/earth/day/20000422/la102_full.jpg
> ]
> and
> [ http://news.excite.com/img/feeds/ap/earth/day/20000422/la104_full.jpg
> ]
> seem to be broken.
>
> Thanks,
> Davide Andrea
> Boulder CO
--

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Harry:

fire away !!  together we can make it better !!

emillio

www.GMElectricVehicles.com <http://www.GMElectricVehicles.com>


-----Original Message-----
From: finance@... [mailto:finance@...]
Sent: Thursday, May 18, 2000 11:40 PM
To: sparrow_ev@egroups.com
Subject: [sparrow_ev] Other Sparrow owners?


Hi ,

I got my sparrow last week and would like
to discuss Sparrow problems with other Sparrow owners.

Harry


------------------------------------------------------------------------
Big Groups = big savings @ beMANY!
http://click.egroups.com/1/4112/3/_/_/_/958704014/
------------------------------------------------------------------------

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
sparrow_ev-unsubscribe@egroups.com

--- In sparrow_ev@egroups.com, finance@w... wrote:
> Hi ,
>
> I got my sparrow last week and would like
> to discuss Sparrow problems with other Sparrow owners.
>
> Harry

Hello Harry,

I've had my Sparrow since the end of November. What problems are you
having? What kind of driving are you doing? lots of local stop & Go,
Freeway driving? I'm driving mostly in the coastal mountains in
California, & the long grades are what limit my range.
I've had a few problems over time myself & I really appreciate being
able to network with other owners also. I do live close enuf to
Hollister that I have dropped by & was able to speak to someone right
then about my concerns at that time.
Looking forward to talkin' to you & others soon

Alan (owner #18)

Hi ,

I got my sparrow last week and would like
to discuss Sparrow problems with other Sparrow owners.

Harry

EVLN(Conchita's $14k Sparrow images)
[The Internet Electric Vehicle List News. For Public EV informational
  purposes. Contact publication for reprint rights.]
  --- {EVangel}
Drive WILD ART 04/28/2000 The Edmonton Sun Final DR30
(c) Copyright 2000 The Edmonton Sun. All Rights Reserved.
photo by AP
DRINKS LIKE A BIRD
Actress Maria Conchita Alonso looks out from behind the wheel of an
electric car dubbed the "Sparrow" as members of the me dia surround her
during an Earth Day celebration in Los Angeles, Saturday. Manufacturer
Corbin Motors says the Sparrow is capable of speeds of 70 mph and will
sell for under $14,000.
[ http://news.excite.com/img/feeds/ap/earth/day/20000422/la102_full.jpg ]

===

Two models of a single-passenger electric car known as the
"Sparrow" lead an Earth Day parade in downtown Los Angeles,
Saturday, April 22, 2000. The manufacturer claims the cars will
go 70 mph and will sell for for about $14,000. Photo by E.J.
Flynn (AP)
[ http://news.excite.com/img/feeds/ap/earth/day/20000422/la104_full.jpg ]

  Bruce {EVangel} Parmenter
          ____        % Use Renewable Energy to charge your EV %
       __/o|__\~        EVangel: messenger bringing good news
=)---'@ -----@'      'Electric cruis'n the Santa Clara Valley'
132V S-10 Blazer http://members.aol.com/brucedp/  BruceDP@...

* Sparrow EV Driver's Page http://geocities.com/sparrow_ev


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