Ok, since we're back alive again, here's a question.

Amtrak's 98 page business and capital plan now lists Phoenix-Tuscon as one of
the proposed corridors, though it is listed in the "other" group.  How do we
get that line as well as the restoration of the Sunset to Phoenix (can
someone say Phoenix to LA corridor?) to the front burner?

Howie Dash

Welcome back, everyone, to the new incarnation of the Southwest Rail group.

\\/

Congratulations are due to Bill Lindley for all of his efforts in promoting
real answers to developing problems in the great Southwest.

Like many others I have grown tired of fighting the traffic on a trip to
Tucson from Phoenix and return. The "thinking" of the current political
leadership is to widen I-10 from two to three lanes. This is NOT a
solution - it is a temporary fix, that will cost millions.

The logical answer is to develop high speed rail on a line that already
exists between Phoenix and Tucson. You can bet I would be a willing and
paying customer if such service were made available - and I bet you would
too!

So Bill, best of luck and great wishes for success in this and all of your
other efforts to provide sensible solutions to the transportation problems
in the southwest. You can bet we are with you and support you.

Gary L. Stilts
gstilts@...
http://www.ponderosanorth.homestead.com
   (Web site devoted to Arizona and Southwest rail and model rail news,
activities and reference information)

Friends,

At the Southwest Rail group site --

    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/swrail

are the following resources which I invite you to use to the fullest.

* Bookmarks.  Links to web sites of interest.  There is a folder where
I encourage you to post a link to your home page.

* Calendar.  Includes ARPA events.  Please feel free to add any event
which pertains to rail or transit advocacy.

* "Promote" gives you the HTML code so you can add a button to your
website to bring others to the Southwest Rail group.

\\/

Road, bus costs for 20 years top $61 billion

Full story at
http://www.arizonarepublic.com:80/arizona/articles/0214bumper14.html

Feb. 14, 2001

The price tag to keep Arizonans on the move for the next two decades:
$61.3 billion.

That's the conclusion of the Governor's Transportation Vision 21 Task
Force, which met Tuesday to continue the complex job of trying to satisfy
Arizona's transportation needs through 2020.

Most of the money will go to keeping our love affair with the automobile
alive and kicking, with the hope to stay a step ahead of total gridlock.
About 81percent, or $49.9billion, would go to road projects, to maintain
and widen existing streets and highways, and expand most major
transportation corridors in the state.

"Clearly, for the foreseeable future, the amount of travel that is going
to occur is on roadways, compared to transit, and that isn't going to
change," said Martin Shultz, co-chair of the task force.

The needs are staggering. The task force projects a 48 percent increase in
the state's population in the next 20 years. Also, a 48 percent increase
in miles driven, meaning the improvements are necessary just to keep us
moving at our current rush-hour speeds of 30 mph.

How to pay for it all? Task force members say the state is due to get
about $41billion in federal and state transportation funds over the next
20 years, leaving a $20billion shortfall.

To make up the difference, task force members propose a series of gas and
sales tax increases, along with development fees.

Over 20 years, a 10-cent-per-gallon increase in the gas tax (now 18 cents)
would raise $4.3billion. A three-fourths-cent increase in the state sales
tax would raise $14.2billion.

The combined annual cost to the average two-car household earning $40,000
per year is a bit pricey at $205.

But should the task force concentrate so much on roads?

Only 11 percent of the pie, $6.8billion, is earmarked for rail and bus
improvements, which could soak up some of the need to drive everywhere and
even lead some two-car families to give up a car for a bus pass.

"This is a group that's being tabbed a visionary, but they're not looking
at alternatives to our existing structure," said Chris McMurdy, a Goodyear
city official who has attended several task force meetings.

Shultz said not many Arizonans will give up their cars, nor is it the task
force's job to force them onto buses.

"There's going to be a change (to transit) but it's going to be a slow
change," Shultz said. "It's not going to be a dramatic shift from the
needs of roadways."

Jim Shipman, a task force member and head of the Arizona Transit
Association, which represents transit interests, says it's too early to
say buses and rail are getting the short shrift.  He also thinks the needs
are being looked at on a statewide rather than a piecemeal city-by-city
basis.

"We were hoping to get the state involved, and there's been some
progress," he said.

The task force's next meeting is March 1. In late March, members will hit
the road for a series of public hearings. They plan to deliver the final
version to the governor by April.

Reach Petrie at bumper@...

Thinking outside the farebox, this southwestern metropolis is reaping
big rewards from a fast-growing LRT system.

By Luther S. Miller
While some people thought Texans would never give up their pickup
trucks, DART's 20-mile starter line will soon grow to 95 miles. Pictured
above: DART's new Cityplace Station.
Dallas Area Rapid Transit Photo
The $1 fares that 37,500 riders a day pay to board light rail trains in
Dallas, Tex., cover only about 17% of the cost of their rides. Rail
transit's think-tank critics call it highway robbery. Dallas calls it
something else.

The fact is that the light rail service introduced in this sprawling
southwestern metropolis five years ago is widely viewed as a solid
success, not only by the people who ride it but by a business community
that has benefited hugely from its stimulus.

That's why Dallas is pushing ahead with the nation's largest passenger
rail expansion program. Dallas Area Rapid Transit's 20-mile, 21-station
starter light rail line will soon be more than doubled in size, and then
will be doubled again to a system totaling 95 miles. It's also why
outlying areas that are not among DART's 13 member cities are beginning
to clamor for rail service. The spreading appetite for rail is whetted
by a regional/commuter service, Trinity Railway Express, that will
connect Dallas and Fort Worth by the end of this year, and in its
incomplete phase is already carrying more than 4,000 riders a day.

Urban areas elsewhere that have failed to win voter support for
transportation bond issues may take heart from the Dallas experience.
After voters rejected a transit bond issue in 1989, DART's constituent
communities voted to impose a one-cent transit sales tax. Half of that
goes for capital costs and half for an operating subsidy. This enabled
DART to build its $848-million starter system with 80% local funds, and
20% federal, a reversal of the usual formula. There's a greater federal
contribution to the ongoing building program. DART has a $330 million
full-funding agreement with the Federal Transit Administration to help
pay for the 12.3-mile North Central extension that will reach Richardson
in 2002 and Plano in 2003. The 11-mile Northeast extension to Garland
will be fully funded by the local sales tax.

Still more new lines are planned, and based on light rail's initial
success, taxpayers are enthusiastic. Last August DART's member cities
voted by a three to one ratio to approve long-term financing to
accelerate construction of future LRT lines to Carrolton, Farmers
Branch, North Irving, South Dallas, Fair Park, Pleasant Grove, and
Rowlett.

More services mean more cars, and in about five years DART will be in
the market for 80 to 100 vehicles to augment the 95 that have been
supplied by Kinkisharyo.

A class act pays off

Wherever DART has gone, business development has followed. Both business
and residential developers cite proximity to DART as important
determinants in site selection.

The economic benefits produced by DART derive from the fact that the
system is a demonstrated crowd-pleaser.

"The main secret to our success is that the system is designed to save
people time and money, and do it in a way that is safe and secure and
pleasant," says DART President and Executive Director Roger Snoble. "In
Dallas, you know, you have to do things in a way that's worthy of
people's interest. We have modern-looking trains, we have great
stations, we have art projects, we have helpful, friendly, uniformed
security officers on our trains. I think this says to people that DART
is an attractive alternative to driving in congestion." Adding to DART's
reputation as a class act was the opening late in 2000 of the $50
million, stylishly-designed Cityplace Station in the subway section of
the initial line.

"Some people said Texans would never give up their pickup trucks," says
Snoble. "That undersells the qualities of Texans. They're very upbeat,
very modern people, and they've just been waiting for some
alternatives."

If rail transit is so effective, why is it so consistently fought by the
think-tank drones? Why did it fail at the polls in Austin last year?

"Where these people are coming from are taxpayers' groups that don't
want to pay tax money for anything except maybe their own projects,"
says Snoble. "I think the problem in Austin was one of taxes-you
sometimes have the same problem building highways because you're asking
the whole region to support a corridor improvement that may not serve
everybody. Then there are the people who feel their automobiles are
threatened. But they have a free choice. I always say that if you love
your car you'll take good care of it and leave it in your garage, not in
a parking lot."

Snoble is careful to suggest to visitors that the road to rail transit
is not an easy one.

"We've had people from Austin and all over the state and country come
here to look at DART," he says. "We always tell them light rail is not a
slam-bang guarantee. It's got to really be planned properly, it's got to
be in the right place. The advantage of light rail, of course, is that
it has a broad range of operating situations so it can do a broad range
of jobs. We take a lot of pride in designing the right tool for the
job."

As for light rail's critics, he feels they're simply missing the point.
DART's strategy is to keep people moving, providing access to every
aspect of metropolitan life-education, jobs, shopping, health care-which
is why it touted the late 2000 opening of its new $50 million Cityplace
Station in the subway section of the initial line.
Dallas Area Rapid Transit Photo
"Let's keep things moving"

"One thing that is important to point out to our critics is the economic
development that has occurred around the rail lines," Snoble says.
"Light rail is a real land-shaping tool, and we've seen it happen here
big-time. The original public investment that we put into the system has
paid itself back just in the private investment around the rail lines.
It's a terribly strong argument against the people who don't see
benefits measuring up to the costs."

Snoble freely acknowledges that the farebox pays only a fraction of
operating costs. "Our focus, quite frankly, has nothing to do with
farebox recovery. We've always said that half of that one-cent sales tax
is used to support operations and keep fares low. That's important if
we're going to get people out of their automobiles."

If DART's focus isn't on the farebox, it's very much on the economics of
mobility.

"The question is, how do you make a large urban area able to continue to
move, because that's such a critical part of every aspect of
metropolitan life, from education to jobs to shopping to health care-to
everything," says Snoble. "If a metropolitan area doesn't have good
access to all the things it offers, then it doesn't work as a good urban
area any more. Our strategy is simply, let's keep things moving."

It's a strategy that has won DART broad community approval.

"The media are big supporters; they're saying we really are making a
difference," says Snoble. "The business community is a big supporter
because if we get congested and things slow down, it costs them money.
They also don't have to supply as many parking places for their
employees. Business has, quite frankly, helped shape our policies. We're
very close partners.

"Our task is to help make Dallas continue to grow and still be a good
place to live in with a high quality of life. One strength DART has is
that we are a total transportation company. We're not just a bus company
or a train company or an HOV lane company. We're in business to move
people. We deal a lot with city traffic engineers whose business is
moving cars. We think we can balance that out a bit."

When will the Dallas system be complete?

"I don't know if we'll ever be finished, but for the next 20 years we'll
be building toward a 95-mile light rail system and 110 miles of HOV
lanes," says Snoble. "Trinity Express will, of course, go on to Fort
Worth, and we're already working on plans for some other commuter rail
lines more or less in the northern part of the metroplex.

"There really is no let-up in the need for mass transit tools like we
offer, because the region will continue to grow and this is a way to
help it grow in a sensible, sane way."

Does DART face any big problems-funding, for example?

"We've managed our funding very well," says Snoble. "One of the
challenges is to keep everybody else's hands out of our pockets so we
can concentrate on what we're supposed to be doing-providing transit
services."

"A real challenge we have in front of us," he adds, "is that because of
our success, the cities around us that are not members of DART are
saying, 'There's more to this transit thing than we ever thought, and we
want to come in as well.' But they want to come in on the cheap."

The expansion of services to cities that don't want to pay the price of
admission could be a major future problem, says Snoble. DART simply
doesn't do things on the cheap.

Source:  Railway Age

In a message dated 2/15/2001 1:23:54 AM Eastern Standard Time,
gstilts@... writes:

<< The "thinking" of the current political
  leadership is to widen I-10 from two to three lanes. This is NOT a
  solution - it is a temporary fix, that will cost millions. >>

Isn't it really Billions?  Russ Jackson, who has to travel I-10 from time to
time across Arizona.

Cool.  Thanks Bill.

To:              swrail@yahoogroups.com
From:            "Bill Lindley" <wlindley@...>
Date sent:       Thu, 15 Feb 2001 13:24:36 -0000
Send reply to:   swrail@yahoogroups.com
Subject:         [swrail] Group Resources

> Friends,
>
> At the Southwest Rail group site --
>
>    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/swrail
>
> are the following resources which I invite you to use to the fullest.
>
> * Bookmarks.  Links to web sites of interest.  There is a folder where
> I encourage you to post a link to your home page.
>
> * Calendar.  Includes ARPA events.  Please feel free to add any event
> which pertains to rail or transit advocacy.
>
> * "Promote" gives you the HTML code so you can add a button to your
> website to bring others to the Southwest Rail group.
>
> \\/
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> swrail-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>

Info please:

Perhaps you have heard of this long-defunct railroad that was
supported in its infancy, bought, then sold by the (also now defunct)
Southern Pacific.  It was sold to the San Diego Trolley company as a
"if you want to buy the SD to Tijuana tracks, you have to buy the
whole enchilada"-type deal (Campo to El Centro included).  I also
have some family history in it:  an Uncle was a fireman in the days
of steam and early diesel and he got me a ride in a switch engine
when I was about 5.

Over the last 30 years or so the trestles have burned, tunnels have
collapsed, etc., etc.  But the interesting thing is that rummers have
floated (urban legends?) that some Japanese shipping companies want
to rebuild the route because berths are in short supply in the Los
Angeles ports and it doesn't take to many days of a bajillion dollar
freighter sitting off-shore waiting to port to equal the cost of a
railroad with quick access to mid-and southern-America.  Complica-
tions with the portion in Mexico is usually given as what's slowing
the project down.

I say urban legend since it fits the pattern.  It's always been "real
soon now", including newspaper accounts.  It has a moralism (at least
for San Diegans), and one wants to believe something like this,
despite all logic and evidence to the contrary.

So, if there is credibility anywhere here, please let me know.

Gene Holmerud

> << The "thinking" of the current political
>  leadership is to widen I-10 from two to three lanes. This is NOT a
>  solution - it is a temporary fix, that will cost millions. >>
>
> Isn't it really Billions?

$ 1.412 Billion, according to the 1998 high speed rail study.

\\/

[This will appear in the next issue of the Western Rail Passenger Review,
Arizona & New Mexico edition]

Mailed after the introduction of the High Speed Rail Investment Act. The
letter restates our
position on national passenger rail, approved in 1997, which may be viewed
at

   http://www.trainweb.org/azrail/position/9706national.htm

As introduced, the HSRIA is "A Bill [t]o amend the Internal Revenue Code
of 1986 to allow a
credit to holders of qualified bonds issued by Amtrak, and for other
purposes." Instead of this, we,
consistent with our 1997 position, call for the funds to be available to
Amtrak, or any other
operator, through a new Infrastructure Authority.

Already the HSRIA moves toward this direction, in allowing the Alaska
Railroad, which operates
Amtrak-style service in that State, to be a recipient of the funds: "The
Secretary of Transportation
may allocate to the Alaska Railroad a portion of the qualified Amtrak
limitation for any fiscal year
in order to allow the Alaska Railroad to issue bonds which meet the
requirements of this section?
the Alaska Railroad shall be treated in the same manner as the National
Railroad Passenger
Corporation."

Our letter, then, builds on a theme already present in the proposed Act,
puts all potential operators
on a level playing field, calls for the separation of Infrastructure from
Operating funds, and is
consistent with the Senator's call for a national debate on the future of
Federal involvement with
passenger rail.

========= TEXT OF THE LETTER =========

Dear Senator McCain:

We ask your support for the High Speed Rail Investment Act (which has been
tentatively numbered S.250), with the funds to be invested through an
Infrastructure
Authority and not through Amtrak or any other operator.

This would help balance our government investment in highways, waterways,
and
airways with a similar investment in passenger rail infrastructure. Rail
freight and
passenger service can add much-needed capacity to our Nation's
transportation network,
at a much lower cost - economically, ecologically, and socially.  A
Federal Rail
Passenger Infrastructure Authority would be a fiscally conservative way of
accomplishing this goal.

Furthermore, the decision of the Amtrak Reform Council will soon be upon
us, and such
an Infrastructure Authority would assure a sound future for inter-regional
passenger rail
through the total separation of operating versus capital expenditures.

For all these reasons, we ask your support for a High Speed Rail
Investment Act which
creates an Infrastructure Authority.

WHEN:
   Saturday, March 10
   1:00 pm - 4:00 pm

WHERE:
   Phoenix City Hall Atrium
   200 W. Washington St, Phoenix AZ

The Arizona Rail Passenger Association will hold an Open House and
General Membership Meeting at the Phoenix City Hall Atrium on March
10. The City of Phoenix is graciously hosting ARPA members,
prospective new members, and guests by presenting an overview of the
Light Rail system currently in progress.

Please join us for this exciting meeting. You will see and hear how
far the City has progressed toward making Light Rail a reality.

This is a free event with refreshments provided. You will be able to
ask questions to these officials, so please plan to be with us.

RSVP to Judy Eisenhower, ARPA Executive Director, at 480/947-5710.
All are invited, but we do ask you let us know you are coming so we
can provide sufficient refreshments and seating.

We look forward to seeing you there!

Enter your vote today!  A new poll has been created for the
swrail group:

In metro Phoenix, on which of these
issues do the public and politicians
need the most education?

   o Light Rail
   o Commuter Rail
   o High-Speed Rail
   o Bus Rapid Transit
   o A combination of the above
   o Other


To vote, please visit the following web page:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/swrail/polls

Note: Please do not reply to this message. Poll votes are
not collected via email. To vote, you must go to the Yahoo! Groups
web site listed above.

Thanks!

I clicked the link and went to a page without a poll, so I would most
definitely choose High Speed Rail.  What other way could *reduce* air
traffic while preparing the valley for the future?  With 320 flights per day
to/from Tucson/Phoenix and all LA area airports, we are overlooking the
obvious.  Just wait until the day that we're flying 747s to cities only an
hour away, but it takes longer to enplane/deplane than the actual flight!
It's a very common sight in Australia/Asia, where many times you take a
huuuuuuuuge plane for a 40 minute flight... no wonder rail is so popular.


----Original Message Follows----
From: swrail@yahoogroups.com
Reply-To: swrail@yahoogroups.com
To: swrail@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [swrail] New poll for swrail
Date: 20 Feb 2001 13:54:45 -0000


Enter your vote today!  A new poll has been created for the
swrail group:

In metro Phoenix, on which of these
issues do the public and politicians
need the most education?

    o Light Rail
    o Commuter Rail
    o High-Speed Rail
    o Bus Rapid Transit
    o A combination of the above
    o Other


To vote, please visit the following web page:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/swrail/polls

Note: Please do not reply to this message. Poll votes are
not collected via email. To vote, you must go to the Yahoo! Groups
web site listed above.

Thanks!







_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com

Friends,

You do have to sign up (and sign in) as a Yahoo member to use the polling
and archive features.  It's free, it's private, and you don't get
"spammed."  Highly recommended.

   http://groups.yahoo.com/group/swrail/

Let me know (off-list) if you have any difficulties.

\\/

A report in the Arizona Republic (Feb 18) stated that the Navajo Nation
wishes to invest a few million dollars to revive the infamous ghost town
of Canyon Diablo, which lies 4 miles north of I-40. If the once-bustling
1880's community can be revived into a "Tombstone-esque" old-west tourist
town, the tribe feels that an Amtrak-passenger stop may be warranted.

Subject: FW: ASRRM update...


-----------------------------

STATE RAIL MUSEUM GETS HOUSE BACKING
(Capitol Media Services : Feb. 21, 2001)

Arizona taxpayers would contribute more than $1.3million during the next two
years to help create
the Arizona State Railroad Museum in Williams under the terms of legislation
approved Monday
by the House Committer on Commerce & Economic Development.

The vote on HB2606 came after Williams Mayor Ken Edes told lawmakers the
museum could attract
an additional 200,000 visitors a year. Williams is also home to the Grand
Canyon Railway, a private company
credited with revitalizing the economy of the little Northern Arizona town
for the past 12 years. The railway is
now averaging 120,000 passengers a year.

Terms of the bill require backers to match at least $2.00 in local and
private funds for every dollar of state aid.
Albert Richmond, president of the ASRRM Foundation pushing for the museum,
said if all goes well the facility
could be open by spring 2003. To date, the museum has already acquired over
$500,000 in other funding.

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com

What's the status of Amtrak's stop in Williams?  Or is it technically
Williams Jct.?

Paul in DC
----- Original Message -----
From: marc pearsall <mapearsall@...>
> STATE RAIL MUSEUM GETS HOUSE BACKING
>
> Arizona taxpayers would contribute more than $1.3million during the next
two
> years to help create
> the Arizona State Railroad Museum in Williams ..

Paul in D.C.

Recently was at Williams for a ride on the GC Ry and railfanning at Williams
Jct. The Amtrak site is indeed at Williams Jct. consisting of concrete slab, a
sign "Williams" and a light pole. So, I guess it's officially "Williams", about
a mile and a half or two east of Williams proper.

Gary Stilts
www.ponderosanorth.homestead.com

   ----- Original Message -----
   From: Paul Wilson
   To: swrail@yahoogroups.com
   Sent: Wednesday, February 21, 2001 4:20 PM
   Subject: Re: [swrail] ASRRM


   What's the status of Amtrak's stop in Williams?  Or is it technically
   Williams Jct.?

   Paul in DC
   ----- Original Message -----
   From: marc pearsall <mapearsall@...>
   > STATE RAIL MUSEUM GETS HOUSE BACKING
   >
   > Arizona taxpayers would contribute more than $1.3million during the next
   two
   > years to help create
   > the Arizona State Railroad Museum in Williams ..


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I wonder what the chances are for Amtrak to keep cross-country routes if Acela
proves to be successful.  Plus, does anyone know if Amtrak will terminate at the
first cities in Florida since construction starts on their high-speed rail lines
in 2003?  My gut feeling is that Amtrak will move to regional services rather
than long distance routes... but I really don't know what the profitability is
of the cross-country routes.  In all honesty, they're probably better served by
buses, which I would guess have better travel times and on-time records than
Amtrak...  any thoughts?

\
Ben
http://benbethel.tripod.com
(my webcam)
/

   ----- Original Message -----
   From: Gary Stilts
   To: swrail@yahoogroups.com
   Sent: Wednesday, February 21, 2001 5:04 PM
   Subject: Re: [swrail] ASRRM


   Paul in D.C.

   Recently was at Williams for a ride on the GC Ry and railfanning at Williams
Jct. The Amtrak site is indeed at Williams Jct. consisting of concrete slab, a
sign "Williams" and a light pole. So, I guess it's officially "Williams", about
a mile and a half or two east of Williams proper.

   Gary Stilts
   www.ponderosanorth.homestead.com

     ----- Original Message -----
     From: Paul Wilson
     To: swrail@yahoogroups.com
     Sent: Wednesday, February 21, 2001 4:20 PM
     Subject: Re: [swrail] ASRRM


     What's the status of Amtrak's stop in Williams?  Or is it technically
     Williams Jct.?

     Paul in DC
     ----- Original Message -----
     From: marc pearsall <mapearsall@...>
     > STATE RAIL MUSEUM GETS HOUSE BACKING
     >
     > Arizona taxpayers would contribute more than $1.3million during the next
     two
     > years to help create
     > the Arizona State Railroad Museum in Williams ..


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     To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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     Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.



   [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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         Click here for Classmates.com


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   Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> I wonder what the chances are for Amtrak to keep cross-country routes
> if Acela proves to be successful.

I would be happy to see the entire Northeast corridor operation split off
into a truly separate entity.  And to see all the Infrastructure funding,
both for the NEC and the national passenger train system, come through an
Infrastructure Agency.

Either NEC or the national system could be "Amtrak," it doesn't matter.
But separating the infrastructure investment from the operation would
remove the bookkeeping magic and show the inter-regional trains to be
profitable.

If you have not read Andrew Selden's "Plan to Reorganize" Amtrak --

    http://www.trainweb.com/urpa/pubs/reorganize/index.htm

I recommend you do so.

> [will] Amtrak will terminate at the first cities in Florida
> [after Florida builds] high-speed rail lines in 2003?

No, the New York traveler bound for Miami is not going to change
trains.  The inter-regional and the regional markets are totally
different.  Florida, if anything, will probably see a network of 90-mph
trains across the state on the existing tracks.  This is a far better
investment than whole new rights-of-way, or attempting to mix 120-mph
trains with 60-mph freights.

Incremental changes, as in Arizona, are the only sensible way to expand
our nation's rail passenger system.  A 90-mph sustained speed train on the
UPRR could travel Phoenix-Tucson in two hours.  Shaving a few minutes off
that time with a totally new high-speed line would cost a few billion
more.  And in this day of Environmental Impact Statements and soaring
property prices, the chances of building new rights-of-way is Zero.  Not
going to happen.

The suggestion that inter-regional services are best served by buses
is... well, were you serious, Ben?

\\/

> What's the status of Amtrak's stop in Williams?  Or is it technically
> Williams Jct.?

See

http://www.trainweb.org/azrail/station/az/williams/junction

\\/

Paul,
The Williams Jct stop is up and running.
The Grand Canyon Railway sponsores a shuttle bus that runs from the Williams
depot to the Jct twice a day.
Amtrak lists it officially as "Williams/Grand Canyon, AZ" on the station
sign.
Please see a photo of the station at the below site.
[  http://www.trainweb.org/azrail/ ]
click on 'depots' then click on 'williams jct.'
Cheers,
MArc




>From: "Paul Wilson" <pawilson@...>
>Reply-To: swrail@yahoogroups.com
>To: <swrail@yahoogroups.com>
>Subject: Re: [swrail] ASRRM
>Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 18:20:29 -0500
>
>What's the status of Amtrak's stop in Williams?  Or is it technically
>Williams Jct.?
>
>Paul in DC
>----- Original Message -----
>From: marc pearsall <mapearsall@...>
> > STATE RAIL MUSEUM GETS HOUSE BACKING
> >
> > Arizona taxpayers would contribute more than $1.3million during the next
>two
> > years to help create
> > the Arizona State Railroad Museum in Williams ..
>

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com

Los Angeles Metrolink, the San Diego Coasters, Amtrak's Surfliner (San
Diegans), the Altamont Commuter Express -- these are among the many train
systems successfully attracting new riders and providing alternatives to
congested roads in the West.

Would commuter and regional train services like these work in Arizona?
  Why or why not?

Your thoughts, please.

\\/

MAG is hosting seminars in Feb/March for its long range transportation
plan.

Location:

Arizona Historical Society Museum (Tempe - 1300 N. College Ave / north of
Town Lake)

Info: call 602 861-7487

Meeting topics
----
FEB 23: Demographics and Social Change
MARCH 2: The New Economy
MARCH 9: Environmental & Resource Issues
MARCH 23: Land Use &  Urban Development
MARCH 30: Transportation Technology

How many people studied planning here?  It seems we have a lot of train
brains but not to many people who are actually looking at demographics, land
use, and travel patterns... think of all the metro areas and cities in the
SW US as proportionally sized dots on a map, draw lines representing
travelers between these points, add and 'x' near each airport, then put some
hash marks by hills/mountains/canyons/water...

look at the drawing, and which routes seem obvious?  which corridors would
hit most of the population and transportation hubs?
Probably Phx-yuma-palm springs-riverside-san bernardino-ontario-burbank-los
angeles.  tucson and san diego could be added later... then maybe rocky
point and tijuana, and then connect rocky point and tijuana and you have a
great rail circle...

Ben
_________________________________________________________________
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William,

Obviously, you need to focus on population centers that would provide viable
support for such regional rail. In as much as one of the main arguments for
regional rail is traffic congestion on the freeways - we need to look at those
freeways that are suffering the congestion.

Absolutely ripe for regional rail is the Phoenix-Tucson corridor, with I would
hope, a stop in Casa Grande.

The other freeways would need to be studied with a more jaundiced eye. For
instance, I-10/I-8 (Tucson to Yuma). How much of this traffic is truly
intrastate, and how much is interstate - actually heading towards LA or San
Diego?

I doubt much I-40 traffic is intrastate (Winslow to Needles). I-17 traffic would
need to be studied more closely also - how much of that traffic is
Phoenix-Prescott, and Phoenix-Flagstaff? And how much is Phoenix to I-40 for
interstate travel?

My point: rather than using a shotgun approach to regional rail, supporting
several routes, some of which are questionable, lets use the rifle approach and
take a clean shot at a known viable corridor: Phoenix-Tucson.

Gary Stilts
www.ponderosanorth.homestead.com

   ----- Original Message -----
   From: William Lindley
   To: Southwest Rail List (E-mail)
   Sent: Thursday, February 22, 2001 10:53 AM
   Subject: [swrail] Regional Rail in Arizona -- why or why not?


   Los Angeles Metrolink, the San Diego Coasters, Amtrak's Surfliner (San
   Diegans), the Altamont Commuter Express -- these are among the many train
   systems successfully attracting new riders and providing alternatives to
   congested roads in the West.

   Would commuter and regional train services like these work in Arizona?
   Why or why not?

   Your thoughts, please.

   \\/


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Absolutely not.  Commuter rail encourages sprawl, stations have to be
separated too far apart, grade crossings need to be separated to make it
fast enough, and in order to get people out of their cars it needs to be 1)
faster, 2) cheaper, and 3) more convenient than driving.  Phoenix just isn't
a commuter rail sort of town.  Sorry.

Same goes for Regional Rail.... I can hear the "flop" now.  To where, Yuma?
Flagstaff?  Tucson?  nope, nope, and definite nope.  Get to the train
station, board, take the train, get off, get to your destination - maybe
even have to rent a car -- an all day event... and definitely more expensive
than driving or even renting a car here.  And talk about inconvenient.

Why not address the problems of overcrowded airports and airways with a
solution of rail.  420 flights per day to/from LA demonstrates the need for
better transit - and with all the delays, lines, costs, etc., involved, rail
would be 1) Faster, 2) Cheaper, and 3) more convenient than flying or
driving.

Ben

Ben

----Original Message Follows----
From: William Lindley <wlindley@...>
Reply-To: swrail@yahoogroups.com
To: "Southwest Rail List (E-mail)" <swrail@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: [swrail] Regional Rail in Arizona -- why or why not?
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 10:53:56 -0700

Los Angeles Metrolink, the San Diego Coasters, Amtrak's Surfliner (San
Diegans), the Altamont Commuter Express -- these are among the many train
systems successfully attracting new riders and providing alternatives to
congested roads in the West.

Would commuter and regional train services like these work in Arizona?
   Why or why not?

Your thoughts, please.

\\/


_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com

http://www.azcentral.com:80/community/comstories/0223projects23Z1.html

The Arizona Republic
Feb. 23, 2001

Two on-again, off-again railway crossing projects in Sun City West
have been shoved to the back burner.

They will likely stay there for five years or more before the pot
starts to get stirred again, officials said

...rest of the story at the address above

from the January 2001 Railway Age article, "Planes to the trains":

"...one U.S. airline, Continental Airlines, is actively working with
Amtrak today.  On an as-needed basis (mostly in bad weather), Continental
switches passengers hubbed through Newark to Amtrak Northeast Corridor
trains, rather than continue them on short-hop flights to some Northeast
cities.  In addition, Continental is looking to permanently replace short
Newark-Philadelphia hops with Amtrak trains.

"While not in place yet, Continental says that, for strategic and cost
reasons, it plans to replace turboprop planes with jets, and those are
better suited to longer flights.  Where Amtrak service is available, it
may not only be a less-costly alternative to a short-hop airplane ride, it
may well be more convenient because it will deliver its customers, in most
cases, directly to a downtown area, where many train stations are already
located...

"Amtrak does not want to identify other domestic airline partners other
than Continental but will say that work is ongoing with 'several' airlines
to see if similar plane-to-the-train arrangements can be created at BWI,
Reagan National, and other airports that provide close proximity to rail."

[Arizona note: Both Phoenix Sky Harbor International and Tucson
International Airports are adjacent to rail lines.  Phoenix-Tucson flights
take 45 minutes, plus all the airport hassles; Phoenix-Tucson on the train
would be under 2 and a half hours, downtown-to-downtown with convenient
suburban stops.]

\\/